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Author Topic: Cleveland: Flats East Bank  (Read 822634 times)

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Offline willyboy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #805 on: April 04, 2007, 11:26:58 AM »
Maybe it was because of visibility.  There were alot of people going down to the flats back then.  Retail was always risky down there, but I think Arhaus was "nice enough" to draw people in or to the flats to shop there.  I know people that live up the hill and forget its there, since they pretty much "forgot" amd assume nothing is left down there.   
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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #806 on: April 04, 2007, 02:45:58 PM »
I think Arhaus is too "high end" for the existing downtown residential market, with maybe the exception of some penthouse units at Pinnacle, etc.  People aren't going to pay thousands of bucks for furniture for a rental apartment, because who know where they'll move next and whether or not the furniture will fit, etc.  That being said, I think downtown can support something a more upscale than Norton... something clean, urban/contemporary and affordable too.

Offline Vulpster03

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #807 on: April 04, 2007, 03:49:48 PM »
^ I think there is an upscale furniture store downtown in the warehouse district; Home Surroundings? or something like that, but its definately more contemporary and urban than Arhaus is, but I think its pretty upscale too. Arhaus to tell the truth is more of a suburban style decor in my opinion.

Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #808 on: April 05, 2007, 02:13:52 AM »
I think Arhaus is too "high end" for the existing downtown residential market, with maybe the exception of some penthouse units at Pinnacle, etc.  People aren't going to pay thousands of bucks for furniture for a rental apartment, because who know where they'll move next and whether or not the furniture will fit, etc.  That being said, I think downtown can support something a more upscale than Norton... something clean, urban/contemporary and affordable too.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but this was actually an Arhaus "outlet" store.  They had some reasonably priced furniture in there that I felt was very appropriate for the market they were located in.  I came over from Ohio City to find some furniture there after discovering that the two furniture stores on W. 25th are filled with over-priced left over stock from the 80s (seriously, has anyone ever been in those stores?). 

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #809 on: April 05, 2007, 02:24:53 AM »
^I buy all my illegal drugs from those furniture stores. Don't be dissing them!
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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #810 on: April 05, 2007, 02:33:13 AM »
Mapboy, there were two Arhaus stores at one point(I am not sure if they are both still open) the regular retail store in the flats by the Watermark and the outlet store which was on w. 3rd down in the valley between the bridges. However I did a google and it shows that the outlet is now on Lorain Rd.
« Last Edit: April 05, 2007, 02:37:24 AM by CBC »
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Offline Map Boy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #811 on: April 05, 2007, 02:39:25 AM »
Hmmm...I do recall the other space, though I never went there.  I've never been to another Arhaus, but I thought this one was particularly affordable.  Maybe they had deals on the top two floors?

Offline peabody99

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #812 on: April 05, 2007, 11:25:26 AM »
the Arhaus outlet in the flats is gone. I just heard someone mention it a few days ago. It moved to the burbs. I wonder what they will do with the building, I really like it. Its not in Wolsteins zone is it?

Offline j73

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #813 on: April 05, 2007, 12:09:54 PM »
Map Boy's right - the ground floor was regular retail and the upstairs was for deals/outlet.

Offline Mov2Ohio

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #814 on: April 05, 2007, 05:50:45 PM »
The history of the Flats through parties
Posted by Michael Heaton April 05, 2007 19:22PM
Categories: Arts & Life
Scott Wolstein's planned redevelopment of the east bank of the Flats into an upscale housing, retail and residential district would be merely another incarnation for an area that has gone from pestilential swampland to settlement to industrial center to entertainment district and finally to failed entertainment district.

For the past 200 years, the changes were brought about by people who saw what was there and thought they could do better -- and have a good time doing it.

More at
http://blog.cleveland.com/earlyedition/2007/04/artslife_the_history_of_the_fl.html
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 03:49:26 AM by MayDay »
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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #815 on: April 06, 2007, 01:36:01 AM »
1801 to 1971?  nothing happened in between? 

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #816 on: April 06, 2007, 03:41:45 AM »
That's bizarre. No wonder why too many Clevelanders don't appreciate their city's amazing history.
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Offline peabody99

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #817 on: April 06, 2007, 12:40:02 PM »
a couple of aspects of 1971 sound good  :wink: ...otherwise this is poorly written

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #818 on: April 06, 2007, 06:02:02 PM »
goofy, surface-y article... and wouldn't the old Sohio/BP "Riverfests" be considered parties?  Until the 90s, when BP merged w/ Amoco/pulled up stakes for Chicago, they were the biggest thing going in the Flats, annually.

Offline X

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #819 on: April 07, 2007, 08:17:21 AM »
This article comes across as an unnecessary kick in the balls.  Really, the vast majority of people that went to the Flats had a good time and stayed peaceful, and then left happy.  Why try to portray the entire history of the Flats as a downward spiral of violence?  What insight do their readers gain from this?  What does the PD gain from this? 

Offline twok2lcdcnc

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #820 on: April 08, 2007, 09:26:13 AM »
This article comes across as an unnecessary kick in the balls.  Really, the vast majority of people that went to the Flats had a good time and stayed peaceful, and then left happy.  Why try to portray the entire history of the Flats as a downward spiral of violence?  What insight do their readers gain from this?  What does the PD gain from this? 

All of these are very good points... my thoughts exactly.

Offline mrnyc

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #821 on: April 08, 2007, 02:34:27 PM »
not to mention those old classic cleveland bands like pere ubu were more known for playing down there when it was pirate's cove than when it was peabody's, but whatev, peabodys was a good music joint. i think the minister of culture needs to retire from his pulpit, that was a painful read.

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Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #822 on: April 08, 2007, 05:24:13 PM »
This article comes across as an unnecessary kick in the balls.  Really, the vast majority of people that went to the Flats had a good time and stayed peaceful, and then left happy.  Why try to portray the entire history of the Flats as a downward spiral of violence?  What insight do their readers gain from this?  What does the PD gain from this? 

All of these are very good points... my thoughts exactly.

yeah, I agree... leave it to a PD writer to give what was a great entertainment district a particularly negative spin.

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #823 on: April 09, 2007, 02:44:05 AM »
From the Flats Oxbow Newsletter:

Quote

Demolition began March 2 on the eight buildings owned by developer Scott Wolstein along Old River Road within the Flats East Bank Neighborhood footprint.  To date, nearly six buildings have been razed; the balance will be complete within 30 days.  The demolition effort is on track to exceed LEEDís (Leadership in Energy and Environmental Design) 50% threshold for recycling debris.  This represents a significant volume of steel, brick, and wood that will not end up in a landfill. The LEED Green Building Rating System, developed by the US Green Building Council, is the nationally accepted list of standards for environmentally sustainable construction.

Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #824 on: April 09, 2007, 02:48:52 PM »
The Probate Court docket reflects that all the motions for summary judgment have been denied.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #825 on: April 09, 2007, 03:01:22 PM »
The Probate Court docket reflects that all the motions for summary judgment have been denied.

Summary judgment as requested by the hold-outs?
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Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #826 on: April 09, 2007, 03:59:36 PM »
Yes, the remaining property holders.  Also, a partial motion for summary judgment filed by the Port Authority (relating to the issue of inability to reach an agreement...must be an element which needs to be proven in a taking action) was also denied.

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #827 on: April 10, 2007, 12:13:00 AM »
So what's next?


Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #828 on: April 10, 2007, 02:51:47 AM »
As noted above the 1st part of the e.d. hearing (after being continued at least 4-5 times) goes forward on May 7, 2007.

Offline 3231

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #829 on: April 10, 2007, 02:57:15 AM »
As noted above the 1st part of the e.d. hearing (after being continued at least 4-5 times) goes forward on May 7, 2007.

I missed that one. Its hard to keep track of this. Is this mainly due to on-going negotiations? Why else would they be delaying this so often?
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Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #830 on: April 10, 2007, 03:57:26 AM »
Since I only have the Probate Court docket to gone on I can only speculate.  The continuance orders do not provide any specificity.  Good guesses can be made based on motions filed by the parties and the stage of the proceedings.

It is not unusual for a case to be continued at least once before it goes to trial and often their are multiple continuance.  I would venture that 90% of all Common Pleas cases that actually go to trial have had the trial date continued at least once for a whole host of reasons.  I would also guess that at least 40% have two or more trial continuances.  Some judges are very liberal in this regard but a few just won't put up with it unless it serves their purposes.

From my review of the docket it looks like the earlier continuances were due to the fact that the parties had not had a chance to complete discovery (this is a common reason in any litigation).  It looks as though the parties took more than 40 depositions which takes a significant amount of time, especially when you have a number of attorneys involved.  It is often hard to coordinate schedules (after all this is not their only case).  It would appear that the more recent continuances had more to do with court having to rule on discovery motions (parties allegedly not providing the required discovery as allowed by the rules so motions are filed), the court wanting to consider the motions for summary judgment and the fact that it looks as thought the court was pressing settlement (unsuccessfully).  Again this is all pure speculation on my part.  I cannot read the the various motions and brief on line (unlike Summit County).  However, I believe I am offering some pretty educated guesses.

At this point settlement looks like wish full thinking.  Given property owners like George and Kassouf and certain hard headed attorneys representing the property owners, this thing is going to trial (which is conducted in two phases...the first before the judge...if he rules a taking is appropriate then the second phase...valuation...is before a jury).  My view is that the property owners think it is in their best interest to drag this out even if they lose at trial.  I believe an appeal is almost a certainty given events to date.

Given the foregoing I hope Wolstein is able to being implementation of the project  so he can build around the other property owners.  I hope this is in Wolstein's plans although I don't know if it is possible since I really don't know where the hold out properties are located and whether it is feasible to begin doing SOMETHING with out the holdout properties.  If not, it may be another two years before ground is broken.  Anybody have any ideas or information on this point?

Online musky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #831 on: April 10, 2007, 12:29:58 PM »
Thanks for clearing that up. Some of us are not as legally literate as others.

Offline sky

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #832 on: April 29, 2007, 06:19:23 AM »
A chance for something special on the Flats' east bank
Sunday, April 29, 2007

Let's face it: Cleveland-area developers haven't aimed for the stars lately when it comes to architecture and planning.

The local state of the art is to strive for cutesy-pie nostalgia, as in Mitchell Schneider's Disney-style Legacy Village shopping center in Lyndhurst, or to be satisfied with the solid but unexceptional contemporary look of Nathan Zaremba's Avenue development in downtown Cleveland.

More at cleveland.com http://www.cleveland.com
« Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 03:50:18 AM by MayDay »

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #833 on: April 29, 2007, 07:26:46 AM »
Awesome interview.  Hopefully that will bring more fleshed out drawings of what the East Bank can be.  Glad he isn't set on building to his original vision and he understands funky being good.

Offline clvlndr

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #834 on: April 29, 2007, 08:23:12 AM »
I'm hopeful for good architecture, but right now, I'm just glad to see this project is going to happen one way or another.  Wolstein has shown is determination by knocking down those building's he owns and clearing most of the river frontage (and much to the ire of the holdouts who, unsuccessfully, griped Scot did this to devalue their adjacent land)... Right now, I'm more function over form.  Although I don't want something hideous or acutely boring, I just want residences and retail... including a few residential and office towers thrown in the mix. 

Wolstein's determination to get this important project done is a breath of fresh air here in C-town.

Offline the pope

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #835 on: April 29, 2007, 08:33:01 AM »
can anyone provide any commentary on the architecture firms listed? (aside from me googleing)

Offline KJP

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #836 on: April 29, 2007, 08:52:38 AM »
Quote
The basic elements of the development include 250,000 square feet of retail, with a movie theater, shops, galleries and restaurants; 500,000 to 1 million square feet of office space; and more than 600 residential units.

Those numbers keep edging upward. Sounds like Wolstein is getting some serious interest from potential tenants.

Quote
He's also intrigued by the possibility - suggested by one of the firms he interviewed - to put a tall, landmark structure at river's edge on the northwest corner of the property.

VERY interesting!
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Offline Htsguy

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #837 on: April 29, 2007, 11:20:49 AM »
Before commenting on the new information divulged in the article, a quick rant.  Can't Steve Litt begin any written piece without cutting down Cleveland in one way or another.  It really starts to get old after a while.  Maybe he should take a creative writing class and learn some new hooks.  In this particular piece I found the following comment particularly sophomoric:  "Need I mention that Cleveland passed up the opportunity to build a Gehry designed skyscraper headquarters for Progressive Corp. on the lakefront in the 1980's".  What the hell is he implying?  It is as if people where marching in the street against the design when he says "Cleveland".  Any by the way wasn't it a private corporation that decided to forego building.  He makes it sound like it was some sort of taxpayer funded project.  If I recall "Cleveland" (it's residents) would have given an arm and a leg to see that that building was built, but Progressive (and Litt's BUDDY Peter Lewis) determine that the Progressive workforce preferred the suburbs (at least that was one of the major reasons given)....more likely cooler heads decided it was cheaper to build mundane buildings in the suburbs than spend the $$$ for the signature building.  In any event it was not the people of Cleveland or its institutions that over see design and construction that put the brakes on that project.  I guess that I should be grateful that Litt did not start the piece, "In Cleveland, the poorest city in the nation"  which is one of the favorite hooks for PD writers (even if the article is about the latest in fashion footwear for women).

ANYWAY...I am disappointed in some of the information contained in the article.  That is utility work will not begin (at the earliest) until the fall of this year and that construction will not begin until fall of 2008 (which means 2009).  I thought the project was much further along, even with the court proceedings.

I am pleased to see that Wolstein is looking at having a number of different architectural firms design for the project.  This can only add interest and make the area appear as if it developed over time rather than all at once.  I really can't see Stern being a major player if Wolstein is serious when he says he is not interested in cute period architecture.  Of course love the idea of a tall signature building.  Unfortunately, it appears that we won't have any real idea of what the plan is going to be for at least a year.

Offline gavster

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #838 on: April 29, 2007, 11:43:14 AM »
maybe once Dan Gilbert gets done consolidating all his 4,500 employees in a signature structure in downtown detroit from multiple buildings in the detroit burbs he can school peter lewis on how to accomplish this.

Offline mcadrenaline

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Re: Cleveland: Flats East Bank
« Reply #839 on: April 29, 2007, 01:14:23 PM »
nice interview and update on what is going on, but I too thought things were further along. I hope they can pull this together. Even if the architecture is not outdtanding, something new down there is better than nothing. I'd settle for something like Newport/Levee in Cincitucky.