MayDay

"A couple things: I know the Marous' (whom I have the utmost of confidence in) ... I'd be more skeptical... let's keep our fingers crossed." To be honest, I acknowledge that they have done (and continue to do) some incredible work in Cleveland. I absolutely wish them the best with all of their projects. However, I have to say it's a little disconcerting to know that the following projects are on hold (for whatever reasons): Districk Park, Battery Park, and the Rockwell Condominiums. I want them to succeed and I hope they can get those projects rolling again. "But our history of doing one thing at a time (which only under Mike White were we able to move on several projects at once), I think if we focus on Gateway, WHD will suffer." I see what you're saying but I think if you're worried about West 6th becoming the new East bank of the Flats, I don't see that happening. Could the Warehouse District decline? Perhaps but I think the fact that it's downtown's largest concentration of residential units will keep it from becoming a ghost town like Old River Road. Remember, what happened to the Flats happened because of a lack of mixed-uses - it was all about drinking. A LOT of drinking. Another thing, Gateway and the Warehouse District are different enough (imho) to play well off each other. Gateway is more "experience" entertainment (a la Gateway stadia, Pickwick and HOB) and residential living whereas the Warehouse District is more for club/bar hopping, dining and residential living. The Avenue District plans by themselves may not seem to work - but when you consider (as StrangeBrew pointed out) that in that same stretch you have the Statler, Chesterfield, and Reserve Square... I think that the Avenue District would add vibrancy to an area that's attempted to have a residential component but thus far has lacked. "It seems counterintuitive to think that developing one part of downtown could in any way be adverse to another part, but we are going through bad economic and political times right now (and yes, I mean Jane)" I'm not her biggest fan, but I will say that Jane is like the teacher who walks into a room full of screaming kids. She's done a good job of getting everyone to settle down enough to communicate. Unfortunately she doesn't inspire those who have communicated to get motivated to do things. And I truly think she needs to drop the niceness - it comes off as patronizing, especially when it comes to volatile situations. In other words, she needs to stop being afraid of being labeled a b!tch. "I will all be watching closely to see if a condo tower can go up at 515 Euclid because that could be the linchpin in REALLY helping Gateway take off." I think a lot of people are keeping their fingers crossed for that one. And despite the total incompetency of Miller/Ratner at Tower City -- who, I understand from Crain's is quietly hinting at getting out of TC and Cleveland RE all together -- Tower City is humming w/ the best and most diverse set of restaurants in downtown right now, and it's getting very little notice." My take is that Tower City was never meant to be the ultra-luxury place that it was when it first opened. However, it's ridiculous that it can't maintain mid-market status (i.e. chains that you'd find at say, Great Northern). And when I read the retail manager of Tower City Center say that J. Crew wouldn't close in spite of a location at Crocker Park? Incompetence is a diplomatic way to put it. "... and what am I doing? I write, I call and, most importantly, I patronize what's here..." Awesome. Keep it up. And imagine the possibilities if half of the population of Greater Cleveland would follow your example :-)

This will be great to see when we have a forum meet in Y-town. :clap:

Welcome to the forum, clvlndr. I agree with some of your sentiment, but I have to respectfully disagree with some of your points. "And what about that huge and ugly diagonal building-less/surface lot hole extending from the corner if W. 6th & St. Clair all the way to the NW quadrant of Public Sq., 4 blocks away" Unfortunately, until we get an administration bold enough to start a 'land tax' and make it less profitable to run a parking empire, the parking lots aren't going anywhere. Besides, other than being floated as a potential site for the Federal Courts tower, I don't know of any *recent* proposals to do anything noteworthy with that site. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see something happen but without legislation, I don't see it happening. "And now with the apparent demise of the Marous Bros' massive, promising District Park complex," From what I understand, it's being redesigned - if it truly has been scrapped then I might be inclined to agree. Again, this seems like a case of a lot of things working against Marous at the same time (steel prices, other projects, etc.) "it will signal (I think) a complete shift away from the WHD, which can’t be good." I disagree - I see the WHD as being fine along with the new interest in Gateway. The residents of each area DO cross-pollinate, so to speak. And the nice thing about East 4th and West 6th is that they're in reasonable walking (or stumbling) distance of each other. Look at the clientele of the Warehouse District - you have high-end restaurants, casual spots, nightclubs, and bars. It's a great mix and a healthy mix. It's not my first choice of nightspots but it is for just about everyone. It's healthy enough and I think it's getting stronger. "Remember Davenport?" Sure do - and I remember how White tried to strong-arm parts of the site away from Kassouf. It was a public relations disaster even though the White plan was far better than the Micro-tel that Kassouf suggested. Again, it's not just a matter of Zaremba saying "we want to plunk down our project on such and such site". Land acquisition is a b!tch in this town - speaking of, I've heard that the Public Square site was shopped to the committee planning the Federal Courts tower and the cost of that site was almost as expensive as the entire cost of the tower itself!!! "I'm not doing back flips over this new "exciting" plan" When someone offers criticism (and thank you for keeping it constructive and informative) - I'm not asking you to do back flips, but I will ask - what are you doing? :wink:

Can we get Mayor Plusquellic to take over for Jane Campbell? Akron's too small for my taste but they actually get things done!

That would have been either XO, Metropolitan Cafe, or the Blue Point Grille. Those are a few of the "special occasion" joints, especially XO and Blue Point.

The thing is - the Warehouse District *does* offer more than bars. Sure, there are plenty of them but the majority of market-rate housing downtown is right there.The Flats never really had much of a residential element. What I'm liking is that there are more and more casual eateries opening around the Warehouse District instead of "special occasion" spots. You have Nauti Mermaid on West 6th, Captain Franks on St. Clair at West Third, and Flo Cafe on West 6th at Lakeside. That tells me there's a demand for everyday places to eat which tells me the area's investment in residential units is paying off. I think Constantino's is good enough to tide residents over until there's truly enough critical mass for a full-size grocer.

Here's the fourth part of Stonebridge (proposed office building). It would be adjacent to the former Carnaval building and the existing office building of Stonebridge:

Folks, you do know that Standard Parking got its start here? And do you know who helped found it? http://moritzlaw.osu.edu/alumni/newsletter/oct2003/metzenbaum.html

"has Cleveland.com still not figured out how to spell Rafael Vi?[sic] last name?" I think it has something to do with the coding and the ñ doesn't translate for some reason. Anyways, your resident geek went to the Cleveland Landmarks Commission site and found these. Enjoy.

"except when they laid off a bunch of their restorationists two years ago.......what do you mean paintings need maintenace?" I take it you knew some of them personally?

No offense but Malley's chocolate tastes like wax, imho. :-P I still say the best food produced locally is: :drunk: :drunk: :drunk:

"^with its $700Million endowment, and the fact that half of the interest per year is required to spend on art, the museum will just keep getting better, and still be free to all!" Absolutely - the Cleveland Museum of Art is truly world-class already and this will just make it even better. :clap:

No big deal - I was just wondering. :-) Although I've heard that a small group of preservationists is up in arms about the project. I can't understand why anyone would be against the expansion.

I'm absolutely thrilled that they've given the expansion the green light. With the expansion along with everything else in University Circle, I'm looking forward to what will happen to the area in the next few years. Not to mention the Akron Art Museum's expansion as well - we're talking some serious investment in the arts and I guarantee it will be worth the investment. The only drawback is being without the museum for 6 months - but I think it will be well worth it. nsc, why do you have the 'thumbs down' icon in the subject line?

The area is definitely still in transition but I'd give it another 5 years and it should be in a lot better shape. Projects like these can't hurt http://www.cloisterscleveland.com/

It sounds well-intended but as the article said "show me". What's interesting is that they mentioned he wanted to work with the Jacobs Group - it was the Jacobs Group who financed a majority of the campaign in Westlake to prevent the re-zoning of the Crocker Park site.

Maybe not Key Tower, but I like the first floor of the Marriott on the St. Clair side (the restaurant that's slightly above street level). Fyi, the first floors of Ameritrust were slated to be a Hyatt Regency so I imagine the street-level retail would have been decent.

The old Ameritrust complex (formerly the Marshall and American Trust buildings, or 1 and 33 Public Square) was demolished in the late 1980s to make way for Ameritrust Center which as we know, never materialized because of the Society/Ameritrust merger. Here's a view showing the demolition on the right, and Key Tower going up on the left:

I agree MGD - I think it's important to remember that KPF does an amazing job with curved glass facades (333 Wacker in Chicago, 1250 Rene Levesque in Montreal http://skyscraperpage.com/gallery/data/500/301cibc2.jpg ) This wouldn't have been a Scripps Center on steroids by any stretch. I don't care for the western face which would have been almost entirely masonry but I think the glass portions and the crown (quirky as it is) would have worked well. I think KPF definitely touched on some issues of any structure that's to be built there. 1. It's essential for the base to maintain some sense of context to the square (i.e. 12-story base), and 2. that the tower portion be set off to be closer to 55 Public Square than the Terminal Tower. Ah well, we can always dream, can't we?

Of course the magic number tossed about is 25K - I'm not sure who, how, or what decided that but oh well. Honestly, if Cleveland had 15K downtown I think we'd see a substantially improved street "scene". I guess it depends on how you define "functioning".

^Oh believe me, I know - to think they went from 'Everyday is Halloween' to 'So What', 'Just One Fix', and 'Jesus Built My Hotrod'. I prefer their early to late 90s stuff - their newer work didn't do much for me. 1992. Lollapalooza at Star Lake Amphitheater near Pittsburgh. Ministry. At sundown - ahhh the memories :-D

By the way folks - I have a copy of the original prospectus from 2003 that the Jacobs Group produced. I'll see if I can find it and scan some of the highlights. X, they plan to give that side a new entrance with a large glass canopy and other enhancements. That's if they go with the original proposal. Speaking of - they recently opened the rotunda for a 'Euclid Avenue' retrospective. Your friendly neighborhood geek (me) peeked around a little and found these :-D On an easel tucked away in the rotunda: On the wall inside the lobby of the former Ameritrust Tower: On another easel in the rotunda:

Aaron - you have good suggestions, however downtown has an abundance of 'sit and eat' public spots other than Public Square. As it is right now, Public Square (other than the Soldiers and Sailors monument) is too 'open' and busy to really be an ideal lunch spot. Not only that, but as you can see in some of the pics, the 'rats with wings' are a nuisance (I'm against most forms of animal cruelty but those vermin deserve electrified nets). Jeff, Public Square did start as a center of town and the four quadrants were part of the plan. However, at that time - most people used the square for livestock to graze or retrieve water from the well. My how things have changed! I honestly think that if a major structure was built on *that* parking lot, a lot of issues would be resolved. As it stands there's little reason to cross over the northwestern quadrant - but if there was a tower (office or mixed-use) of significance, that would change foot traffic patterns drastically. I do think taking a lane off of Ontario or Superior would do wonders.

Hey now, I like Kylie Minogue (bubblegum-techno-pop) and Ministry (rage-filled anthems for the apocalypse)! :-D Favorite CD? Out of 500??? Can't do it.

No, they haven't used the square for ice skating for a few years. Honestly, the most used quadrant is by far the one adjacent to Tower City Center. It's where people protest, and in good weather they have plenty of concerts/events. It's also the least "green", interestingly enough. The quadrant with Soldiers and Sailors - well, there's a monument there but I see people routinely either checking out the monument or having lunch, etc. I think it's fine as is. The northern quadrants are the worst as far as lack of use. The one in front of Key Tower needs a serious overhaul - right now it serves two purposes - to give the homeless a place to congregate (because the overgrown and too short trees make them hidden from the street), and for people to get from Key Tower to Tower City Center. If ever there was a place for KeyBank to do a little investing in their own turf - it's there. Get rid of the trees, the circular fountain which doesn't work half the time, and step up the anti-panhandling patrols. Not a single person I knew at Key actually used the quadrant other than to get through it, quickly. The quadrant in front of 55/75 Public Square is home to pigeons and homeless people whenever some church group doles out soup. The southern sidewalk is almost always filled with people - whether crossing Superior or waiting for a bus. Other than the statue of former Mayor Tom Johnson, there's not much other than a patch of grass - a dying one at that. I don't know what I would do here. It doesn't help that as pope pointed out - there's a parking lot where a 1198' tower was supposed to be.