70/65Cityguy

To jskinner (2 posts above). Those townhomes are about a 1/2 block off of Massachusetts Ave - which is one of the busiest and nicest commercial corridors downtown. Lots of good restaurants, theater, live music and local shopping nearby. This is in the NE part of downtown. The area was already the densest residential part of downtown, but over the past few years, thousands more new apartment units have been built and continue to be built in tye area. Those homes are in a prime quadrant of downtown and there are a few more that are simiilar on that same block. The historic Lockerbie Square neighborhood is two blocks south of these homes. These homes are technically located in the southern part of the Chatham Arch neighborhood.

There has been so much focus on potential concerts as a reason for wanting to have a roof on CBS. As an observer of this thread from Indianapolis, I can tell you that concerts at Lucas Oil Stadium are a very minimal answer for why a roof was desired on the stadium. Lucas Oil Stadium (LOS) is directly connected to the Indiana Convention Center via a wide, underground hallway. The ICC contains about 550,000 sq ft of prime exhibit space. LOS contains a large area under the north section of seating that opens directly onto the playing surface area. The "playing field" area and the exhibit area to the north contain about 200,000 sq feet of exhibit space. Combining the ICC and LOS, you have a convention complex with about 750,000 sq. feet of exhibit space, under roof. With the additional ballrooms and meeting rooms - there is just about 1,000,000 sq. feet of convention space at the combined complex. Right now there are about 55,000 FFA (Future Farmers of America) convention folks (kids) in town. They are having large gatherings and using all of the space in the entire complex, including several evening events where they are filling the stadium. There are probably at least ten - fifteen other major conventions that use LOS as part of their convention space needs during a typical year. LOS also gets used for several major marching band events. The state high school marching band championship takes place in November and attracts 35,000 fans. The National HS Marching championships are hosted in Indpls also. In August, Drum Corps International holds their world drum and bugle corp championships in town (Indy has this event for ten years). Crowds are usually 40,000 or so for this event -- and the drum corps groups and their fans come from all over the country and fill all of the hotel rooms. Along with ten home Colts games, there are usually about three or four other large football events each year (Circle City Classic, Big Ten Football Championship, State HS football championship games in 5 classes, (Super Bowl!), sometimes other college games). Almost every other weekend during the Fall that is not filled with a Colts home game or another large event at LOS, there are smaller high school events - where three or four high school games (with 6 - 8 teams) play from noon until 10:00 pm. There also are moto cross races, "bigfoot" type monster truck things, and a few other things. There are typically one or two major concerts per year that occur at the stadium. There are also about twentyfive or so "small" corporate type events per year -- for example, there may be a United Way kickoff dinner where they set up 200 tables on the stadium floor and about 2000 people attend. They're kind of big events, but compared to a 65,000+ football crowd, its small. These are nice events and almost certainly would not happen at the stadium if it did not have a roof. I would say that all of those things listed above mean that LOS is used for about 60 - 70 "big" event (crowds of at least 25,000 people) days per year and another 25 "smaller" events. There are probably another 50 - 60 days that it is also busy with set-up / take down for events - so it is busy around 150 days per year or about 42% of the time. I would say that at least 80% of the events held there would not happen if there were not a roof. To summarize, I would estimate that - without a roof, LOS would host 20 large events per year. With a roof, it hosts approximately 65 large events per year (and another 20 - 30 smaller events). There is some very good economic benefit from having these large events at the stadium. The huge conventions that come to Indy, bringing tens of thousands of people from all over the US and other parts of the world, fill all of the hotel rooms and typically) for a 25,000 person convention) mean a $20 million - $30 million economic impact. Indy's complete package has also made it attractive enough to be able to get the Big Ten Football Championship, the Final Four and NCAA b-ball Regionals, and the Super Bowl. Those events have economic impacts ranging from $30 million (Big Ten Football) to $200 million or so (Super Bowl) and we are attracting many, many more huge conventions which will start showing up in town over the next few years. The very large conventions are booked 5 - 10 years in advance - so bookings made in 08, 09 and 2010 will be coming to town in 2014, 2015, etc. Currently the Convention booking folks are setting up big deals for conventions that will be coming in 2020, 2021 and beyond.

Indy was a blast during Super Bowl XLVI last week. I spent a lot of time hanging out downtown. Unlike most recent Super Bowls, all of the major events were concentrated in the heart of downtown. Over 1.1 million people came downtown over ten days, enjoying the fantastic Super Bowl Village along three blocks of Georgia Street - which has been converted into a pedestrian focused corridor (like 200,000 "pedestrians" on Friday night). Two stages were set up with packed concerts filling the streets pretty much every night. Bands ranged from local groups to LMFAO, The Village People, Morris Day and the Time, En Vogue, Patty LaBelle, and many others. Other huge parties were going on all over the downtown area including one with Katy Perry and another one with Lupe Fiasco. Buddy Guy was playing at the Slippery Noodle. Lots of Fun. Amazingly - the late January through early February weather was unbelievably, unseasonably warm and sunny -- with high temps mostly in the 50s and low 60s. There were also 4 Zip Lines running for about two blocks over Capitol Avenue next to the Convention Center. Oh yeah --- then there was the game at Lucas Oil Stadium (which is why I posted this here). Everything was exceptionally well run. The Giants scored in the last minute to take the four point lead that they barely held onto until the clock expired as a Hail Mary pass from Tom Brady fell a foot or so from a diving Rob Gronkowski. Many positive comments were sent out fromsports writers and other journalists from across the US and from other places around the world. Things have now returned to normal -- but hopefully the successful hosting of this huge event will help Indy continue to land many more huge sporting events and large conventions for the next several decades.

Thanks for the very excellent photo spread. I love the War Memorial and the symmetry of the entire American Legion Mall - from the Main Library to the US Courthouse. Glad you captured many of the architectural details from some of the older buildings. The State Capitol has a beautiful interior that a lot of people don't usually see. Yes -- that ugly Hyatt is pretty sad. It was built in 1976 and sits on what used to be the end point of one of the diagonal streets that used to go through that area. There has been so much street, sidewalk and bike / ped construction downtown during this past year. Hopefully by Spring of 2012 it will all be completed and people will be able to get around much more easily. When the "Cultural Trail" bikeway is completed -- it'll be a great way to get around downtown without needing to get in a car. (btw --- I was downtown on that same night you were taking photos because I went to the Octoberfest party on the Circle - that you had a picture of. It was a blast -- with "Polka Boy" playing and lots of nice, cold beer.) Also -- while I agree Indy doesn't have the same good neighborhood hubs that Cincinnati and Cleveland have - there are a few that are improving. Fountain Square to the SE of downtown is getting to be a great live music and food place and Mass Ave on the NE side of downtown has a lot of great local food places and both large and small music and theater spots. Along with Broad Ripple to the North -- more good local restaurants and shops are opening in the SoBro (South Broad Ripple) area. Irvington is another area that is getting to be a stronger local hub - with a few other rising neighborhoods coming along such as E. 10th Street, Beech Grove, and the Cottage Home / Highland Park area just east of downtown.

OK --- so I'm reading all this stuff from 2006 and 2007 about Cleveland's plans to roll out its new city "branding" strategy. Everything is ready to go for the big announcement - and then, no additional word until this story about Atlanta claiming to be the first big city to elect a black Mayor - from 2009. Anyway -- whatever happened with the slogan and branding? Hate to say it but, here in Indianapolis, I've never heard of any new brand or slogan for Cleveland during the past two years. Indy just came up with a new slogan that I like. It is --- "Indianapolis - Raising the Game". I think it is great because it reflects all of the big sporting events that the city hosts and also the way it has recently really "upped" its local convention offerings by spending over $2.5 billion in the last three years on: Completely new Airport Terminal $1.1 B; New Lucas Oil Stadium $750 million; 350,000 sq ft. expansion of Convention Center (will be 750,000 sq. ft by end of 2010) $250 million; and 1,620 new hotel rooms at the Marriott Plaza complex connected to the Conv. Center $450 million. Anyway --- what is Cleveland's new brand and "slogan"?

Thanks Robert. Very Nice! I need to get back down to Bloomington soon!

Since when do offices give a place a "24 hour vibe"? Usually, lots of offices kills the night life. Everyone leaves at 5:00 and all of those buildings are empty.

Here's the story from the Indpls paper -- different twist however: http://www.indystar.com/article/20090707/BUSINESS/90707038/Oceanaire+bankrupt++but+Indy+stays+open

Incredibly beautiful. Wonderful Photos Robert. Many of the interior shots remind me of the interior of St. Louis Union Station --- the beautiful arched entrances, stained glass, light fixtures. Truly wonderful. Thanks very much!!

Right -- the Indpls MPO just released its request for proposals (RFP) to consultants to submit bids to conduct the draft environmental impact statement (DEIS) for rapid transit on the existing "Nickel Plate" rail corridor that runs out of downtown and up through Fishers and into Noblesville. A firm should be selected in the next two months and the DEIS should be completed by late 2010. Getting funds to build any light rail or commuter rail on the corridor will likely be tough -- but there is a lower cost "start up" plan that could help get a basic light rail system built for about $200 million. At that cost - it might be able to get started and be built even without federal transit dollars. Upgrades could come later. More news should be coming out about this in the near future. And Atlas --- welcome to Indy. I think you'll find it a pretty nice place. Its good you're moving here in May when the weather's decent and plenty is going on. Check out some of the fun places on Mass Avenue (Chatham Tap, Bazbeaux, the Rathskellar, Buda Lounge, MacNiven's) -- explore Fountain Square and Broad Ripple, enjoy the fesivals like Italian Fest; Talbott Street Art Fair;"Orange"; Penrod; the Greek Festival; etc. -- and White River Park, the Canal district, the many outdoor restaurants all over downtown - the ones with decks are particularly nice like Creations Cafe at the north end of the canal; Bourbon Street Distillery and Zing (both along Indiana Avenue). You'll find plenty to keep you busy I hope. Other places to explore - the Indianapolis Museum of Art and its beautiful wooded campus, gardens and the new art and nature park surrounding the lake behind the art museum; Garfield Park, Holliday Park, Eagle Creek Park, and Fort Harrison Park are just a few excellent parks with much to enjoy; The extensive and growing greenways bike trails throughout the city - the Monon is nice - also the ones along the canal near Butler and the Museum of Art as well as the Fall Creek Trail which runs NE from the central part of the city and up to Ft. Harrison State Park. Mountain Bike Trails are excellent at Wolf Run trail - entrance at 96th St. just west of where it crosses the White River on the far north side of town; The Mountain Bike trails at Brown County State Park about 45 miles south of Indy are some of the best in the country as well. Go inside the amazing World War Memorial - located along Meridian between Michigan and Vermont Streets; Hanging out on the steps of the Soldiers and Sailors Monument on a sunny week day during lunch is a cool thing to do. Be in town when Indy hosts the 2010 NCAA final four in April. Its great to experience all of the excited fans. Things get extra busy and interesting too throughout late May when the Indy 500 is happening - and Brickyard 400 week as well. (Michael Phelps will be swimming at the IU Natatorium for some type of national championship later this summer as well. I enjoy these kinds of big sports events as well.) Anyway -- enough of that. Again -- I hope you enjoy your move to Indy.

Great photos. It really shows the monumental, capitol style of the city. Very "planned", and laid out. Much symmetry -- lots of fountains, monuments. The green parks are well maintained as well. Nice shots from along the River as well. It might be a little too tidy and planned for some people - but overall it is a pretty nice city. Indy continues to do well -- steadily climbing along. It doesn't jump out to try to impress you - but it just continues to grow in its somewhat quiet way. I think it has been that way for quite a while. When Indy was "booming" in the 1880's, Indiana was considered fairly progressive (Eugene Debs and the early union movement; the city of New Harmony and its "utopian" society) and was kind of important (along with Ohio and Illinois). The people of the city wanted to make sure the city represented the State well - and thus many of the great, monumental buildings and structures were built between 1880 and 1900 --- The State Capitol, Union Station, Monument Circle, City Market, etc. It still has too many near downtown large parking lots -- but hopefully over the next twenty to thirty years, those will be filled in. The goal is to increase the downtown population from about 22,000 now - to about 40,000 by 2025. The new Cultural Trail should help make the downtown and its neighborhoods much more walkable as it is completed over the next two or three years. Doubling the size of the convention center will also help keep the many restaurants and retail doing well - which in turn should help attract more people to live and visit downtown.

Yes -- Fountain Square seems to finally be seeing some life. It gets pretty busy on weekends with some of the best art galleries in the city (Big Car, Wheeler, Murphy, and a few others) plus some excellent new bars and restaurants: Radio, Radio; the Brass Ring; Siam Square; Maria's Pizza; Naisa (Asian); Santorini and others. There are plans for the Museum of Contemporary Art to move to a site on the NW edge of Fountain Square. It still looks plenty rough - but when people are out - its a great atmosphere. There are also plans to re-do the fountain (those 70's cement urns are a little ... not so nice).

Cleveland could get screwed on this because of their slow movement on making progress. I've been following this from afar for several years. A page earlier, someone stated that it is typical for convention center decisions to take this long. I disagree. It definitely didn't take Indianapolis long to make the decision to pick a site and build its $650 million Lucas Oil Stadium (LOS) and $300 million expansion of its convention center. With LOS across the street and linked via underground tunnel to the expanded convention center, the convention exhibit space in the combined LOS and Convention Center is about 750,000 sq. feet. A complex of four hotels linked to the convention complex, totalling over 1700 rooms - with a 1000 room, 30 story JW Marriott is also being built right now - adding to the existing 6000 hotel rooms in downtown Indy. The entire process of coming up with the financing plan, picking the site and building the new stadium took about three years. As soon as LOS was completed in August of 2008, they started tearing down the RCA Dome and will begin building the 275,000 sq. foot convention center expansion (on the site of the former RCA Dome) next year. The expansion will be completed in 2010. The Super Bowl will be held in Indy in 2012. I would hate to see this great opportunity for Cleveland lost - primarily due to its inability to move quickly. And to think that the $400 million + financing plan is just sitting there waiting. It's terrible. If Cleveland can't get its act together real soon - it deserves to continue dying a slow death.

Well - sounds like its coming together with the decision. I wrote back in March (on page 57 of this thread) that I thought the Tower City site made pretty good sense. I actually was in Cleveland last weekend - so I got to see the downtown and its layout. That visit did show me that things have changed since I had last been to Cleveland (about seven years earlier). The warehouse district was hopping with the Boston College / Kent State game going on. There was an Indians game going on and lots of people eating at the restaurants in the warehouse district. Seeing how things are now - I can see how the old convention site could have worked fairly well as well - but I think I'll stick with most of the comments made in my previous post - that the TC site will work best. Hopefully with a great architect - putting together a fantastic design, they will figure out how to make it work well and look good in that site. On the page previous to this one - someone was asking for evidence of a convention center that brings foot traffic. Well - as a few posters stated - Indianapolis is definitely a place where the convention center adds a lot of foot traffic to the downtown streets. A few weeks ago - the GenCon gaming convention was in town - with about 25,000 people attending. They filled all of the hotel rooms downtown and many more in the surrounding parts of the city. The convention was a 24 hour, round the clock one. These people were out all the time - walking the streets, eating at the many restaurants and going to the many bars. With Indy's convention center expansion now under way - the number of huge conventions is only going to increase. The center will be big enough (in 2010) to host back to back conventions - with a 10,000 person convention using half of the center during the first half of the week - and then, after setting up during the previous few days, a second convention with 12,000 people will start, beginning as soon as the previous one closes. And then once or twice a month - having a huge 30,000 - 50,000 person convention come in to fill up the city. This was part of the plan for the expansion - to allow the flow of conventioneers to be more "steady". Instead of three busy days per week and then four slow days, the back-to-back arrangement will keep things continuously busy for the many bars and restaurants. There is no doubt that these huge conventions have a major impact on downtown street life and business at the mall, other stores, restaurants, bars, museums, etc. It doesn't look like the Cleveland convention center will be as large as the Indpls center - so it won't be able to draw the same huge numbers of conventioneers. Still - conventioneers will be walking the streets. Only a few strange conventioneers would stay inside the Tower City Complex, their hotel and the convention center the entire time. One thing that could be an issue though, is that it could be difficult to do any future expansions. The site obviously is very tight. I guess there could possibly be something across the river in the future - so maybe that would be a possibility. Some type of nice pedestrian bridge across the river might then be necessary. Anyway - I'll keep checking in to see how this thing is progressing. Glad to see it looks like the site decision has finally been made. (or is that not quite final yet? - its always hard to tell until construction actually starts.) Good luck.

Even more depressing is reading the first post on this thread. It is from Dec. 2004 and says that the Decision on the location of the convention center is supposed to happen "next month" or January 2005. The current status doesn't seem any closer to making a decision than almost three and a half years ago. Yow.

There's a great new little market that just opened late last year in the near north side of Indianapolis - in the new "Fall Creek Place" neighborhood. It is called "Goose - the Market". You can check out their web site at www.goosethemarket.com Some great meats and cheeses and other deli stuff. Great sandwiches too. Its in a little storefront in the middle of the neighborhood. The location is about a mile and a half north of downtown.

Wow - Not good. This is really a messy situation. Where's the leadership in Cleveland? That E. 55th Street location doesn't sound like a good idea. Why would that even be brought up? If someone had made a decision a year or two ago, this place would have been under construction by now, and the issue of going over $400 million would probably be none-existant. Sorry to bring up another city on this Ohio site, but - geesh - In Indy, the Mayor and Governor started talking about needing to expand the convention center and about building a new domed football stadium around 2004. (We knew in order to make the football stadium half way economically efficient, it needed to be able to have a roof so we could continue to use it for huge conventions, other, non-football sporting events, and other people gathering events like concerts, moto-cross races, wrestling, auto shows, religious gatherings, etc. etc. The retractable roof plan was decided upon and a location decision was made within a year.) I think it was after the 2005 state legislature finished meeting that a funding plan was put in place and after the November '05 voting, enough counties approved the penny food and beverage tax to move the project ahead. They started building the new Colts Stadium in early 06 and it is now almost finished with the first event to be held there in August of 08. The current RCA Dome will be torn down this summer and construction will begin on the convention center expansion soon after the RCA dome is gone. The plans have the Combined Lucas Oil Stadium and expanded, attached convention center (750,000 sq. feet total) completed by 2010. Today, Indy was announced to be the host for the 2012 Super Bowl. Indy will have about 7000 hotel rooms within 4 blocks of its convention center by 2010 including the new JW Marriott complex with over 1500 rooms. The longer Cleveland waits, it seems the situation is only going to get worse. The E. 55th Street location needs to be disposed of quickly. A convention center out in the middle of "no-where" is not going to be able to create much spin off development. It likely will just lead to having a Conv. Center that people don't want to go to and it will just be a big several hundred million dollar white elephant. I believe the Indiana Convention Center - developed in coordination with all of the other facilities in downtown, is what keeps the steady, strong stream of people coming into downtown to make all of the restaurants and shopping thrive. As the restaurants and bars thrive and more businesses, bars, shopping, etc open downtown, more locals also want to come downtown to eat, visit, shop, etc. The downtown population has been very steadily growing for several decades now and is up to about 22,000 people in the heart of downtown. Indy's downtown Circle Centre gets about 50% of its sales from out of towners, primarily convention and sports event visitors. Without the great convention and downtown visitor traffic, I'm sure the shopping scene in downtown Indy would be similar to that of many other downtowns - ie pretty much non-existant. Fortunately, a smart plan for downtown Indy has been followed for a good thirty years now and it continues to pay off. Before I was most supportive of the Forest City site and I still am. I can see now how that could get pretty expensive - building on a steep riverbank. If it can be done well though - I think it would be great to see. There would definitely need to be a plan for the peninsula across the river from that location however. The Mall site may be good too. After learning more about it I think it could work decently too. Hopefully someone can get this decision finalized soon and get something started. The Med Mart / Convention Center combo sounds like a good idea for Cleveland to capitalize upon. The longer you wait though - the more likely the opportunity is going to be gone, possibly capitalized on by another, more quickly moving city.

Quote by Uncle Rando: "While Indy and Cbus both do conventions well (I would say Indy more so than Cbus) I would not say they are necessarily worth the costs involved. Sure they pump lots of out of town money into local coffers, but these are white elephants in center cities, take up tons of land, and kill off every/any kind of street-life around them (especially in Indy)." Just had to say I completely disagree with your thoughts. You obviously have not been around when Indy is hosting a typical 25,000 - 50,000 person convention. "...kill off every/any kind of street life around them.." ? You're crazy. During these huge conventions, the sidewalks are packed all day long, the restaurants all have lines out into the street, Circle Centre is packed, the bars are busy all night long. With the addition of another 350,000 sq. feet of convention space, the number of 25,000+ person conventions will grow from about 15 per year to about 30 - 35. The additional space will also allow the many 5,000 - 15,000 person conventions to be held back to back, with one going on in half the convention center while the next is being set up in the other half. Indy's convention and visitor business is very complex, with events at the convention center, at the downtown sports venues, the downtown cultural facilities (theaters, museums, parks, etc.), the State Fairgrounds (for local boat shows, home shows, RV shows, etc) and at the Indy 500 track all working together to attract conventioneers, pro sports fans, college sports fans, auto racing fans and many other visitors to fill the hotels, restaurants and bars throughout downtown and the rest of the city. Because our football stadium is used for so many events (conventions, concerts, NCAA basketball games, h.s. sports, auto shows, h.s. national marching band championships, drum corps world championships, moto-cross races - and possibly the 2012 Super Bowl) along with the 10, 11 or 12 annual Colts games, the costs for the stadium and the convention center expansion are able to be shared more effectively throughout the region because of the many benefits that come in to the city and state through the high level of expenditures from all of these visitors using the facility. I would strongly argue that Indy's expenditures on its football stadium and convention center expansion have a much better benefit to cost ratio than Cincinnati's spending on its football stadium and its convention center expansion. (And I would also say that I think Indy's investments in its sports and convention facilities have overall been good fiscal decisions, due to the huge amounts of visitor spending that comes into town because of the facilities.) Cincinnati pretty much only uses its football stadium for home NFL games (which attract minimal hotel night stays because mostly locals attend) - yes I know there are two or three other events per year (jazz festival, college and/or h.s. football games), but overall - the stadium doesn't bring in many people who stay at hotels. (And you probably don't want me to even begin to bring up the incredible waste of prime downtown property that is taken up by the Bengals' practice fields next to the stadium. How many acres of green astro turf is just sitting there remaining undeveloped and bringing little if any money into the local tax roles? Talk about a waste of prime downtown property.) The Cincinnati convention center expanded by 36,000 sq. feet - at a cost of $200,000,000! When you refer to convention centers being white elephants in downtown - it may be true for Cincinnati, but it is not true for Indianapolis. You say that Indy's downtown has focused on attracting out of town people. It does do that very well - and I would say has been a successful strategy, looking at the number of out of town visitors - but the number of local visitors to downtown is huge also. Recent polls have indicated that during an average month, approximately 72% of Marion County residents visit downtown Indy. Their opinions of downtown are pretty favorable as well. There are good crowds downtown most evenings and it usually is packed on weekends. The wholesale district covers 15 sq. blocks between the Convention center, Conseco Fieldhouse, Market Street (Monument Circle) and South Street. The area has wonderful local flavor (Union Station, Monument Circle, Indiana Repertory Theater, Circle Theater, State Capitol Building, City Market, St. Elmo Steak House, Slippery Noodle Inn, Canterbury Hotel, Omni Hotel, Ike & Jonesy's, dozens of historic buildings, etc. - all mixed in with the crowd of newer buildings, restaurants, clubs, etc. along S. Meridian, Illinois and Pennsylvania Streets. Mass Avenue with its mile long stretch filled with many restaurants, theaters, galleries, bars, etc is busy too most nights, along with other great downtown areas like the canal / White River State Park, Fountain Square (yea, we've got one too) the growing E. Market / S. Lockerbie neighborhood, Indiana Avenue, and more. All of those places have great local flavor. I'll admit that the block of Illinois Street, between Washington St. and Maryland St. is pretty ugly - with the 20 story brick wall of the Hyatt on the west side of the street across from the bland architecture on that block of Circle Centre, with the first floor chains of Palamino, Ruth's Chris and PF Chang's lining the eastern sidewalk. It may not look real great right there, but it definitely is very busy - and the rest of downtown is filled with many beautiful buildings, great history and plenty of local culture. Indy has done a fantastic job of steadily building its convention complex, through three expansions over the past 25 years. Indy's current expansion (just the convention center part) is 275,000 sq. ft. As you obviously know, that is well beyond the total size of Cincy's entire center. I laugh when I read all the articles you post about the "big" conventions Cincy is attracting now, with its "expanded" (by 36,000 feet) center. The articles talking about economic impacts of $3.5 million for the NAACP convention make me roll my eyes. When Indy hosts the FFA Convention, the economic impact is about $30 million. When we host the Final Four b-ball tournament, the impact is $40-50 million. The Indy 500 and Brickyard 400 each bring in around $200 million! Cincy has a long way to go before it catches up to Indy in convention and visitor business. It seems from your posts that you do not think the convention industry is a very smart business for Cincy to invest in - and you most likely are right. There are so many cities with convention centers in the 150,000 - 250,000 sq. ft range, all trying to land the 5,000 - 10,000 person conventions - and most are struggling. That is because those conventions in that size range and the many smaller ones that cities like Cincinnati are trying to attract, aren't big enough to have much of an economic impact. Only the cities that have gotten ahead of the game by building the 700,000 sq. foot and larger facilties are able to see the benefits of the big convention industry. Since there are only about 20 cities that have large enough convention facilities to compete for the biggest shows, most are able to win enough of those large events to do pretty decently. Indy is in an even better position than many of those other 19 cities, because: our hotels are more affordable than most, yet are still very nice; because there are so many hotels within easy walking distance (by 2011, approximately 8,000 rooms within 5 blocks); and because there are so many restaurants, museums, bars, parks, retail facilties, etc. within a small area - it makes for a very attractive package. That's my blurb about Indy's convention facilities. You might want to think a little longer before you make a statement like "Indy's convention business kills street traffic". I may have to let loose with another novel to try and explain more of my thoughts on this topic. Thanks for reading. - "Captain Indy" :)

As an out of state person, contemplating this situation - my opinion is that the Tower City location would be best. The main reason I feel this way is that I don't think a new CC at the mall location would do much to invigorate the surrounding area. I think the backers of that proposed site are over-estimating the impact of a 300,000 sq. ft center. Cleveland may be able to land a few 10,000 - 15,000 person conventions per year with a new downtown convention center - but not real regularly. Mostly - that size of a convention center will be drawing the 2,000 - 7,000 person conventions which don't have a huge impact on the street life. In a city with a downtown the size of Cleveland's, the additional business from the few thousand extra people in town during conventions may cause a few more restaurants to open and a few convenience type stores and bars, but not in a way that will significantly change the area around where the new convention center is located. I'm not sure of my stats on this next part - but I believe the current Cleveland Convention center downtown at the mall location pulls in around 150,000 - 200,000 people per year. If this doubles to 400,000 (which I think is a pretty high assumption) it will mean an extra 200,000 - 250,000 people per year - or about 1,000 more people (above the current average number of convention visitors) per week day. I agree it would be best to concentrate the activity around the Tower City location. Build on what you already have and help it grow and do better. It sounds like, from several of the posts, that Tower City isn't doing as great as most would like it to be doing. Some help from a thousand or so additional daily conventioneers in town could help maintain it and hopefully help improve it. I think to make downtown Cleveland better, the city needs to build on its assets first - to make them strong - before extending out too far to try to improve another area. I think by trying to expand the reach of the focus area of the city's "attractions footprint" to include this mall area, it will be thinning things down too much. A few people have mentioned things like "its only two or three blocks" away - (ie. what difference will it make to out of town conventioneers?) or "weather is a moot point". I think those are very wrong assumptions to make. Three blocks is a long way for people from out of town that are not familiar with a city's layout. If they are right near shopping and the restaurants and night life of the Flats, they will easily go there and spend their money. The "mall" area doesn't seem to present this same view - and three blocks won't allow the people to see the attractive options that are out there. From a mall location, some will undoubtely go to the Flats and Tower City and spend their money there, but many will wander in other directions or not see much to do,and simply return to their hotel room and order a pizza. To many out-of-stater's - including myself - the things people are familiar with in downtown Cleveland are The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, the Flats, and maybe the major sports facilities like the Browns stadium and Gund arena (actually I do remember now that it is actually called Quicken Loans arena - but I only remembered that because I saw people referring to "the Q" and I had to figure out what that was. We don't know about "the Mall" - so actually - while that area may be important to local planners, most people in town for a convention probably won't care. They will be looking for fun places to go get a bite to eat and a drink, to walk around and see a few recommended sites (R&RHoF, and - if encouraged or with a particular interrest - maybe the GLSC, maybe the theater district, and maybe some other interesting historical buildings or museums, etc.). My perspective having been to Cleveland two or three times for meetings, traveling through and for a conference - is that I would want to be close to the Flats and not out in the middle of the "mall" area. Admittedly it has been ten years at least since I was last in Cleveland - but from what I vaguely remember about the "mall" area, there wasn't that much to see or be interested in. Also, like I said above - I don't think building a new convention center there would do that much to change the surrounding area in the near future. I suggest strengthening the existing entertainment area in Cleveland first before diluting the potential people producing capacity of a CC by sticking it three blocks away from this area. Also - I don't think Tower City would suck people in and keep them away from the other attractions of Cleveland as some people seem to think. I've been to TC before - and thought it was pretty nice - but I wouldn't spend more than 45 minutes in there looking around - and that amount of time would likely only happen if I was grabbing something to eat. People will go in there - but will also go to the flats and the other areas close by to the CC. The reason I mentioned that the weather is not a moot point - is because it is important. Having a facility that is connected to or very near restaurants, shopping and bars will help greatly in attracting conventions in the less than ideal times of the year (which, sorry to say - but in Cleveland would probably be Nov. - April - or half of the year!) If Cleveland is competing against Indianapolis for a convention in February - Cleveland will be struggling because Indy has about 3000 hotel rooms directly connected via skywalks into the convention center and will have another 1500+ in three years when the new JW Marriott complex opens with its direct connections. (And another 2000 - 3000 rooms within a four block walk of the center there as well.) Having to walk several blocks outside to get anywhere interesting during potential bad weather times will be a big negative as Cleveland competes for convention business. Another point that may be worth making: from the one article I read in which the owner or manager of the I X center spoke, it doesn't sound like that facility will be coming down soon - if at all. That is an important factor to keep in mind when thinking about how much business the new downtown facility will generate. The one article stated that the I X has 600,000 sq. feet. Measuring conv. centers isn't always a precise science - but - in comparison to the 300,000 sq. ft. of a new downtown facility - I don't know that closing the I X is necessarily a good thing for Cleveland. I'm not familiar with the I X facility - but it sounds like it isn't the greatest looking thing and undoubtedly is looked at as pulling away potential convention business from downtown. Still - if a 600,000 sq. ft facility closes and a 300,000 sq. ft facility opens - there will likely be quite a few big events that won't be able to fit downtown and will either stop happening or will go somewhere else (outside Cleveland). It may be best for Cleveland to keep this I X place going - however - that will mean more competition for downtown and lessen the ability of the downtown facility to attract as many conventions and trade shows to the downtown area. Again - this just means that it will be more difficult to reach the number of annual downtown conventioneers that I mentioned earlier (which in turn means the chances of livening up the mall area through new convention traffic might be even more difficult than anticipated). Also, one other thought -I do think that the Med. Mart strategy is very good for Cleveland and will help increase the growing national awareness of the strong medical and bio-research activities that are going on there. Well - I think that's more than enough of my thoughts. Good luck with the decision Cleveland.

"The downtown residential market continues to grow at a steady pace with fourth quarter home sales ranging in average sale price from mid $140's to the low $280's." ??? So what was the average sales price? How about one number? That would be helpful for providing some useful information.

Unusualfire: "Does anyone think the convention center has been a success since the expansion? The addition attendence of 50-70k seems very low for how much what was paid for this expansion." I think some of the people in charge of hyping the convention center expansion / renovation have made it sound like a little more than what it really is. They keep referring to 750,000 sq. feet. I don't know what that all includes. Even counting the ballrooms, meeting rooms and hallways, its hard to believe it is that large. Maybe they are counting the kitchen, the bathrooms and the loading docks as well. Most convention centers are listed in terms of the total square footage in the primary, main exhibit halls. Cincinnati's exhibit hall space was 163,000 sq. feet prior to the expansion and is now 199,000. They only increased their prime exhibit hall space by 36,000 sq. feet. Maybe they were counting the roof. (Seriously, I don't know how they come up with 750,000 sq. feet.) They did add a large, major ballroom and upgraded the kitchen and hallway areas - and added much new technology throughout - hence the $135 M price. (Actually, I thought it cost more than that - but - that's what it says in the earlier posted article --- ) Anyway -- By saying the center has 750,000 sq. feet - people might think it is now larger than Columbus (around 400,000 sq. feet) and Indianapolis (410,000 sq. feet) and hence should be getting as many (or more) conventioneers as those cities. In reality it is only half the size and has only increased its primary exhibition space by about 23%. It is difficult with a center that size to attract the larger conventions (at least 15,000 attendees) and pretty much impossible to get the really good sized ones (in the 25,000 - 50,000 range and above.) When you start seeing those types of really large conventions, you begin to see the huge impact on the downtown area and the demand growing for many more restaurants and night-clubs as a result. Some of the posts talk about things like the boat show and the travel and sports shows, which draw 40,000 - 50,000 people - of course those are mostly local folks who walk into the center for a few hours on a Saturday or Sunday and don't stay in the hotels. They may get a bit to eat while the'yre downtown, but obviously, they don't impact the city like out of town conventioneers. Indpls currently gets about a dozen conventions each year in the 15,000 - 55,000 person range. When the next expansion is complete in 2010, the exhibit space at the Indy Conv. center will total 747,000 sq. feet. This is just in the primary exhibit halls (including 180,000 sq. feet in the connected Lucas Oil Stadium). It will be about 375% larger than what is in Cincinnati. Indy is already linking up many new 30,000+ attendee conventions for 2010 and beyond. They are projected to get another 20 - 25 15,000+ person conventions annually after 2010. Indy's room night numbers related to convention attendees is currently about 500,000 annually and is projected to go up to around 700,000 annually with the new expansion. (That doesn't include other visitors in town for other major events like the Final Four, The Indy 500 or the Brickyard 400.) Bottom line, Cincy's expansion - while it improved the space - did not do enough to really allow for significant increases in the number of convention attendees. They'll be able to get the occassional 5,000 - 10,000 person conventions each year but will typically be landing mostly the 1,000 - 3,000 person events. I think the 50,000 - 70,000 person increase that was discussed probably had a little to do with the expanded size and also a little to do with the publicity generated from being a "new" and "expanded" facility. It will be hard to continue getting increases or even maintaining the numbers from the first year(s) once the novelty of the newness wears off. Milwaukee ran into this same problem a few years after its "new" (1999) convention center facility opened. By the way, their Conv Center is almost exactly the same size as Cincy's at about 200,000 sq. feet.

Why didn't Ohio get the new Honda plant that ended up in Greensburg, IN? Lima was listed as a finalist. I wonder what swayed the decision to go to Indiana? Was it larger state incentives? More available workers? Better tax rates? better infrastructure? I really don't know.

Here is a link to a news story about the re-christening of the downtown grocery as a Marsh store. Actually, as the story reads, the grocery has been there for 21 years. There is a video that shows the reporter in the parking lot on the east side of the building. http://www.theindychannel.com/news/14790366/detail.html

It has a good sized parking lot on the west side of the building. I would say the lot holds about 100 cars. The lot also serves a mid sized hardware store, a dry cleaners and several other first floor stores in other buildings on the block like a hair salon and a real estate office. I believe there is also a little bit of parking on an adjacent block for people who work in the grocery and in the offices on the second and third floors of the different buildings on the block. Plenty of people walk and ride their bikes there as well. The new "cultural trail", an 8 mile bicycle/pedestrian pathway loop currently being built around the different neighborhoods and cultural districts of downtown, (in its own right-of-way, separate from the roadway lanes) runs right past the Alabama Street side of the building which is shown in the picture above. That should help continue to increase the amount of people walking and bicycling to the store.

Someone asked for info about grocery stores in the downtowns of other cities. Indianapolis has had its O'Malia's grocery downtown for about 17 years. It was put in on the first floor of a former downtown Sears that was in the near northeast quadrant of downtown. The former Sears was a three story building that had been wrapped in aqua aluminum sometime in the sixties. Fortunately that was all taken off when the grocery went in. There are offices on the top two floors. The O'Malia's firm was bought out by another local grocery chain called Marsh about three years ago. About a year ago, a complete renovation of the store occurred and the name was changed to Marsh. The store is excellent - although when people complain, they usually have a problem with the prices, which aren't as low as typical suburban mega groceries like Meijer, Super Wal-Mart and the like. It has about 40,000 square feet with a very good meat department, wine department, seafood section and a pretty decent supply of most other typical grocery items, including some nice gourmet type stuff. The location is very ideal - right off of Massachusetts Avenue between the CBD, the Chatham Arch neighborhood, the Lockerbie neighborhood, the new residential developments going up on the near east side of downtown and within about two blocks of Riley Towers with its highrise apartments. Many people stop in on their way home from work, even if they don't live in the immediate neighborhood. There is also a Kroger about a mile and a half northeast of the central part of downtown. The neighborhoods around it (Near North Side, Herron Morton, Martindale @the Monon) have been improving steadily for the past twenty years and rumors have been going on for a while that Kroger will tear it down and rebuild on the site with a much improved, more urban style grocery store. The City Market (built in 1888) is on the near east side of downtown and has some decent produce, meats and ethnic items that can be picked up - although it doesn't do real great when competing with the convenience and larger amounts of grocery items available at the Marsh (O'Malias). I agree that as a good corporate citizen, Kroger should put in an excellent store in downtown Cincinnati. Even if they think they might not have enough customers right away, they should just use it as a cost leader and keep it going until it helps attract enough new residential development around it as a way to help improve their home town.