jacksparrow82

Did anyone go to the "Transportation Gala" mentioned above? What was this all about? What did I miss? Thanks

As a point of reference my wife and I live in OTR/downtown and just had a baby. We intend on raising our kids here and would take the streetcar to the zoo. We also have neighbors and friends in OTR/downtown with kids (not to mention all the people I see walking around with strollers) that I think would also find a zoo-streetcar link valuable. I know you were just generalizing, but I think saying "no one with kids lives downtown right now" isn't even remotely accurate. Of course I was generalizing, and I know there are SOME people with kids downtown, I live right next to a young couple with a baby in OTR, but my point is that THOUSANDS of people from the suburbs bring their children to the zoo on weekly basis compared to maybe a dozen or so from downtown? That kind of traffic for the zoo just won't be coming from downtown any time soon. I'm not saying it won't happen in the future, just that right now its not likely. If you look at that map posted above and look at the density of housing along the Clifton Rt. vs. the Vine route and you think about what that red loop circles, its clear that the Vine Rt. would likely see very little use. I mean, who's going to hop on a streetcar downtown or in OTR and ride up to CVS? or Clifton Krogers? Not only that, but there's not even much in the way of housing along Vine except for some rehab programs (I think there's a large block of buildings dedicated to drug and alcohol rehab actually) and some low income housing. Plus, there's a little used park on the right hand side. Short Vine has potential, yes, but its going to take years for that to come around. Compare that to Clifton ave, which was built around a streetcar line and McMillan/calhoun were both served by one too. The neighborhood is already perfectly aligned for that kind of transportation. There's tons of student housing in use and there's actually stuff worth riding to on that route. Regardless, look how close the Clifton Rt. is to the site of the new Uptown Commons, Urban Outfitters, etc. And you're definitely not leaving out employment Centers, Good Sam and UC are well aligned for the clifton route, not to mention how lively Ludlow is and always has been. I guess I'm just biased because I never find a reason to go over to Short Vine or UC Med Center, whereas I'm ALWAYS going over to Ludlow for movies, dinner, etc, plus I work at Good Sam:)

I really don't think the McMillan/Calhoun congestion would be much of an issue, especially if it doesn't turn right on McMillan and instead goes straight through to Calhoun and onto clifton again towards Ludlow. At that point there could be some sort of turn around to head back downtown or simply loop back around mcmillan and then turn back down the hill to downtown. I just don't think we should worry about automobile traffic in designing the system. Automobile traffic should come second. If the area becomes too congested because of the streetcars getting in the way, then drivers will learn to take alternate routes that are less crowded, such as MLK to Jefferson or something. I personally think that the Vine/McMillan intersection is much more congested and busy then the Clifton intersection anyway. And it has less pedestrian traffic simply because theres nothing there worth walking to and its fairly hostile towards foot traffic given the high amount of fast moving traffic. I understand your concerns that if the area is moving slow with traffic that it might adversely affect ridership, and you may be right, but I still think its more important to worry about building the system for foot traffic first and foremost, and concerns about automobile traffic should come second. Anyone else have any input on this?

I have to agree with you on your concerns with a zoo stop. My wife works for the zoo and has given up trying to use Metro for her ride home from work because its such a infrequent stop for buses heading downtown. Remember, the zoo is mostly for families with children. My wife works in the education dept. and I can tell you that the majority of the zoo's income for that dept. comes from programs for children. My point is that I don't think we'll be seeing much demand for a streetcar line to the zoo via vine or any route for that matter. The zoo is for suburbanites mostly and that is why they've invested so heavily in large parking lots there. No one with kids lives downtown right now and likely won't in the future either. Sure, an occasional out of town tourist staying at a downtown hotel might use the streetcar to get to the zoo, but that's not enough traffic to make a streetcar route to the zoo feasible. That's just one more reason I see the Vine route as less useful. The streetcar will be most useful to the people living in and around downtown, OTR, and uptown. We should build the route uptown that will get the most use from those residents and I think the Clifton route is the way to go. As mentioned above, UC students would likely become heavy users of this system if its built along Clifton.

I have to disagree with you on the overcrowding concerns. I think just the opposite would happen with a streetcar going through that area. You would see more people using public transportation and walking rather than driving. The streetcar should help to alleviate all that congestion you're referring to. The fact that its already a heavily used pedestrian area is actually really good for the streetcar. I don't think it would be wise for it to turn an immediate right on McMillan once its up the hill, instead it would be better for it to go straight and then turn left on Calhoun and loop back around on clifton towards McMillan again and then back down the hill from there. That's the route the original streetcar system followed I believe and it obviously worked well considering all the dense development that built up around those streets. Plus, you'd have the added benefit of easy expansion to Good Samaritan and the Ludlow district. And, you'd be able to incorporate it into an Uptown circulator that follows McMillan towards Mt. Auburn and loops back to Calhoun past Old St. George and the Uptown Commons area etc...

I think everyone has a lot of good points regarding both routes. I personally prefer to see the Clifton route simply because I see it being a route I would actually use. There's nothing at the top of the Vine route and that intersection is very unfriendly to pedestrians. I just don't think we would see the ridership numbers we would hope to see via that route. Though the short vine area could potentially be revitalized with the streetcar running there, I think we would see more immediate benefits by having it go up W. Clifton where it could eventually loop around and continue on towards Ludlow. There's just way more people living along that route already and many of them are college students who would likely use it heavily for getting around campus and going downtown on the weekend. The nice thing about either route is that an "Uptown Circulator" running in a loop in an East/West direction would tie together both areas nicely, but this wouldn't be done for many more years. I think we need more immediate results in terms of ridership numbers and economic benefit if we want to be able to expand in the near future and I think the W. Clifton route will yield better immediate results. Regardless, either route will eventually help uptown immensely. Its just a matter of picking the one with the best short term benefits to make the system look as good as possible right from the start.

They put NYC as one of the 20 most miserable places to live? Wow, this shows that using data on income tax, or transportation times to make judgements like this is absolutely pointless. Yeah sure NYC has a ridiculously high cost of living, but to millions of people that live there, its worth it to immersed in such a culturally rich and alive city like that. You get what you pay for. I mean, if you live in No-where-ville Indiana for instance, you'll have tons of extra money from low taxes, low housing costs, low transportation costs, etc, etc. But, you'll be spending your weekends at the local Wal-mart for entertainment. And Cleveland the number 1 most miserable city? Come on! What a joke! Forbes needs to jump off a cliff.

Wow, that certainly was a beautiful building. I can't even begin to wrap my head around the thought that there must be 100s, if not 1000s, of buildings like it that have been lost already in downtown. Its kind of depressing to see it though. That area has been a parking lot for as long as I can remember (at least the mid 1990s when I started coming down there alot). This is a prime example of why we have to be so aggressive now with preventing these sort of senseless demolitions in the future. But, keep in mind that compared to many, many other cities, Cincinnati has been suprisingly lucky to have retained as many of its historic structures as it has. You can't find anything like the buildings in OTR anywhere in Detroit for instance. There's one small strip of old italianate buildings there by the old Tiger's stadium that probably only represents about 0.0000001% of what used to be around that city. Detroit supposedly bulldozed many of their old neighborhoods in the 70s and 80s. Thank goodness Cincinnati wasn't that stupid!

I think this is a new article from today's enquirer site: http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20100804/NEWS0108/8050358/1055/NEWS/Streetcar-No-going-back-now "Advice from streetcar manufacturers and input from those who live or work along the winding uphill streets will figure significantly into the decision, city officials say." We need to all provide input now if we want to see this thing done right. My vote is still for the Clifton Ave. route. I just don't think the Vine street route will do well. No one walks around up at the top of vine and its really on the outskirts of campus. The clifton ave route would end right smack in the middle of a fairly heavily pedestrian dominated area that lots of people use regularly and could actually be a great point for future expansions to branch from. I think we need to encourage the city to pursue that route. I fear the Vine street route would do poorly and make the whole project look bad. I for one doubt I would ever ride the uptown connection if it went up Vine. There's just nothing up there. I would REGULARLY use it if it went up Clifton as I already traverse that area regularly, especially with my bike. What do others think?

Let's tone this down a bit. The westside bashing is unecessary and these "ultra conservative and lame" people currently have a Democratic rep that they elected who supports the streetcar. Well, I apologize if I offended anyone, its just that I grew up there and I still have flashbacks...kind of like PTSD. I didn't mean it to sound so hateful though. I bash the westside constantly among my friends who also grew up there, so I guess I'm just used to doing it too often. Again, I hope I didn't offend anyone, it wasn't meant to come off like that.

Oh my god, I just went to Chabot's website to see the context in which he wrote that quote and I can hardly stand to read his crap! His post was about how he's sure that the majority of Americans are angry with washington, obama, and congress in general and he actually admits that he's been getting his information from talking to people at festivals around town. Most of the festivals he's talking about I'm sure are on the westside, since that's about all there is to do on the westside in the summer is go to catholic festivals, where everyone is 100% ultra conservative and lame. I really hope he doesn't make it back into office. Chabot politics is exactly what's been wrong with this city for so many years. And how about that comb-over! He should definitely win an award for having the craziest comb-over hair of all time.

Wow, statements like this make me absolutely furious. I can't stand this sort of pessimistic, ignorant attitude coming from people like Chabot. This was definitely an intentional attempt to bring the project down to the level of unpopularity as Afghanistan and "moral" issues like legalizing pot. Not only that but he is intentionally trying to make the masses believe thats its just a train through over the rhine. This is SO typical of West Side Cincinnati's attitude towards anything not "Gun slinging, bible carrying, republican politics." Trust me, I grew up on the west side and these are exactly the type of people that absolutely LOVE chabot. Chabot is a bad man for Cincinnati and we should be doing everything possible to keep him out of any office that will influence Cincinnati.

Also, by the way, I'm going to San Francisco the first week in Sept. for a little vacation and I can't wait to check out their streetcars. I hope to be able to get some pictures of their Cincinnati Streetcar. They also have a nice streetcar museum that I hope to check out too. I'll be posting pics here when I get back

I still think that the Clifton route would make the most sense. Alot of UC students live along that street and once you reach the top you're right in the center of a lot of retail space, UC, all of the up coming retail development down by Urban Outfitters. To me, the Vine route seems dead. You get to the top of that hill and all you get is a very busy intersection, CVS, and an old, ugly shopping center. For walkability sake I think it needs to go up Clifton. I ride the 17 from downtown frequently (which goes up Clifton) to work at Good Sam and I really think that route would do a lot better. As far as the grade and the curve in the road, we'll just have to leave that up to the engineers to decide. I'm sure its a much more complicated decision than we can speculate about here.

Well, its 14:25 Friday afternoon, I'm guessing the feds decided to wait until next week for any news as to who's receiving funding? Darn, I'm getting anxious!

Anymore news or leaks with regards to this?

I agree with ThomasBW in that the stops need to be clearly labeled and user friendly above all else. I personally like more classic/historic looking stops as opposed to modern ones, but I'd be happy with anything as long as its clearly labeled, includes easy to purchase ticket booths, schedules clearly displayed, a map with the route and desitinations clearly displayed...These things are absolutely essential to making it a useful system that people will actually use, especially for those from out of town. I think a big part of the reason the metro system is under-used here is because it lacks these basic components at the stops and on the internet.

John, all this sounds great. I really hope your sources are correct. I would love to hear some news about funding soon to brighten up the summer:) I know this has been asked before and is hard to accurately predict, but what are the chances this project could actually start construction soon assuming we get the funding we need? Is it possible we may see a ground breaking ceremony this year?

Jim Uber: I agree with you on your concerns with Metro. I'm hoping that they start to shape up once ridership increases and people start to demand better service in all areas (including their website, bus stops, etc..) This all depends on the transit riders actually getting involved though. We need to be more vocal with our demands and let them know we're not happy with these things. In cities with real transit systems citizens routinely speak up when they aren't happy with certain aspects of the service. That doesn't seem to be the case with Cincinnati (yet).

Are we sure about that?? "Luken, meanwhile, says he plans to circulate petitions to place the streetcar issue on the November ballot." I wouldn't worry about that wacko. He'd be circulating them on his own. Chris Smitherman has already been quoted stating that he would not be getting involved with any more streetcar ballot initiatives. I can't remember where I read it, but he even admitted to his defeat last year and said he has no interest in pursuing the issue again. COAST will likely have the same position. Regardless, let's imagine someone did get another ballot initiative going and it ended up on November's ballot. By then the project will likely be fully funded and ready to break ground. How much support do you really think they'll get at the polls to stop the project at that point? People would have to be stupid to vote to turn down federal money we already have in hand.

Because Tom Luken has lived here almost 85 years? Yeah, you're right on that. Well, you can be certain he won't be around much longer. Additionally, everytime he opens his mouth in public he becomes more and more demented sounding then the last time. 99% of what comes out of his mouth is completely senseless and ridiculous. A law suit with his name on it should just tell the court to ignore the claim completely?

What is Winburn's position now? I realize at first he was completely against the idea, but he said at the last meeting he has been meeting with people who are supportive of the streetcar and will listen. Well, Winburn said he would "listen," but he also told us multiple times that he's completely opposed to the streetcar. So, his listening to us is kind of pointless.

Darn it Berding!? What the heck is he thinking? He's going to be the one to screw this all up. I mean, his opposition to moving forward doesn't even make sense politically. He's not going to win any points with the conservatives after he's already voted in favor of the streetcar many times in the past. He's just stalling the project from moving forward and its not going to do anything but hurt his reputation with his democratic supporters. Why does Cincinnati have such a hard time getting anything done!?

I don't think its possible for anyone to give an accurate estimate on that. However, if we land enough TIGER funds this year in addition to the TRAC funding and any other sources we've applied for, its definitely going to happen. By 2012? That's a good question, but I doubt it will be done by then. I would guess it would at least get started by early 2011 as long as we secure funding by the end of the summer/early fall.

Umm...John, Details please! How did no one else ask about this post yet?