sir2gees

^Sports helps with the overall preception of a city. Pittsburgh is seen as a winning city because the Steelers have 6 titles. It also gives people something positive to rally around.

You've mentioned this "poverty heritage" many times in threads. I really don't understand what you mean. The guy worked his way through Tri-C and went to law school. I have no problem with an individual who is proud of their heritage. As for jobs...yes, there a numerous small manufacturing companies throughout the country and Cleveland could do a better job. However, these jobs are competitive and will never employ thousands of people. Again, we are talking about 20-50 employees per firm. I think a mix of light manufacturing and distribution could help alleviate some of the unemployment. This still doesn't address the cultural issues I mentioned in my earlier post.

Good article...Essentially, Cleveland was penalized for having mild summers. Go Figure!

You make a good point, but where are we going to get these semiskilled light manufacturing jobs from? Our country's manufacturing base has been decimated. Plus, most light manufacturing companies employ a relatively small amount of people. You would need hundreds of these type of companies to employ the thousands of unemployed males in the inner city.

^Poor people can't tell their children education is important? I'm talking about a deeper problem here.

This topic is so complex. In my opinion, until the parents in a lot of these inner city neighborhods decide to take an active role in their child's life, we will not see improvement. I truly believe we could spend five billion dollars and very little will change. There are a lot of cultural issues that need to be addressed.

Another awful list from Forbes...New York ahead of Milwaukee and Minneapolis?

Something doesn't add up. "A survey said people found jobs..." But we've had a net loss of jobs for who knows how long. Doesn't the lower rate also indicate a lot of people left the job market altogether? This is one of the problems with how we measure unemployment; it doesn't account for individuals who stopped looking for jobs and left the market entirely.

That does seem to be a problem, but that's more of a societal issue. In my opinion, when a I travel I feel like people in other regions seem to have a little more pride in where there are from/live. This seems to translate into more friendly people at the airports and hotels. This is not true across the board because there are rude people everywhere. Perception is everything.

This self-deprecating attitude pervades almost every aspect of NEO. Too many times have I seen instances where people around here act indifferent because they believe “this is Cleveland...why should I care." I wish there was way to encourage people to be more professional and courteous, especially when they're dealing with people from out of town.

^It's okay...it would be a pretty nice public course.

Golf clubs have really hurt Country Clubs. I remember the members complaining about having to eat dinner at the Club twice a month as a part of their membership. Some of the really good golfers left because they didn't care about the other amenities, they just wanted to golf. Also, Beechmont, the newer Jewish County Club in Pepper Pike, stole a decent amount of members every year.

This has been discussed for years. I was a caddy there back in the late nineties and every summer there was a new rumor.

I think the biggest difference is that Ohio is still a lot more reliant on manufacturing than Pennsylvania. Ohio is the second largest car producer behind Michigan. Southeastern PA (Philly) is home to numerous pharmaceutical companies and multinational corporations. Southwestern PA (Pittsburgh) bottomed in terms of manufacturing twenty five years ago. So, Pittsburgh has had over two decades to recover. On the other hand, NEO's manufacturing base didn't hit bottom until probably sometime in the early 2000's. Therefore, Pittsburgh has about a 20 year head start on NEO. I also think PA benefits from having Philly, a huge East Coast city with a diversified economy.

Very interesting articles. However, the comments after were ridiculous.

From Crains...looks like University Circle is getting a Doubletree. "The former Tudor Arms Hotel at University Circle in Cleveland is becoming a Doubletree Hotel thanks to a $22 million renovation that developer MRN Ltd. of Cleveland is performing with help from the federal New Markets Tax Credit program." http://www.crainscleveland.com/article/20091104/FREE/911049960

C-Dawg , you made an important point. Pittsburgh's economy bottomed-out twenty-five years ago, so they've had two decades to recover. We'll probably look back at the early 2000's as Cleveland's bottom in terms of manufacturing. I think this is the biggest difference between the two cities. Overall demographics and topography does help Pittsburgh maintain density. If I were a young professional living in Pittsburgh I would live in either Shady Side or Squirrel Hill. I can't name a suburb of Pittsburgh that I find appealing. However, young professionals living in Greater Cleveland have tons of choices outside of Cleveland proper. Lakewood, Cleveland Hts., and Shaker Hts. are very similar to Shady Side and Squirrel Hill, but these cities are outside Cleveland proper. I also think demographics also played a role. I recently did a paper on deindustrialization and the impact on African-American men. In my research, I discovered over 70% of all African-American men living in northern cities held "blue collar" jobs. Therefore, when manufacturing jobs began to disappear, a disproportionate number of black men were greatly affected. Cuyahoga, Wayne and Cook County had the largest concentration of African-Americans in the Midwest. On the other hand, Allegheny County (Pittsburgh) had a decent African-American population. If I remember correctly, Allegheny County had just over 100,000 African-Americans compared to 300,000 in Cuyahoga County. Detroit had just under a million and Chicago had over a million African-Americans. In my opinion, this is what separates Pittsburgh from Cleveland. African-Americans were clustered in large swaths on the Eastside of Cleveland. So, when these jobs disappeared, over 70% of all African-American men in those communities were left without jobs. This is why we see large areas of poverty in Cleveland, Chicago and Detroit. Pittsburgh's African-American communities were also affected, but these neighborhoods weren't clustered on one side of the city. Pittsburgh’s African-American communities are in pockets throughout the city. The Hill District and Homewood are separated by Oakland, Bloomfield, Squirrel Hill and a few other neighborhoods. Also, many of the steel mills in Pittsburgh were outside the city limits heading down the Monongahela. Rankin, Duquesne, and Homestead are pretty distressed towns, but they are independent towns lying just outside of Pittsburgh.

^I think Issue 3 is running about 57-39 in support, so I think it has a good chance. In my opinion, it all depends on voter turnout.

Sounds awful...it just plays into the old stereotype that all midwesterners are country bumpkins. It's stupid and played out. "Wooooow...middle-aged cougars from L.A. They're so glamorous and cool." Sounds like a real interesting show. Lmao!!!!

Please, let's not start a pissing match. Edale and Sfbob both made valid points.

^ I think that lack of entrepreneurial spirit is directly tied to region's perception of itself. How many times have heard… "This is Cleveland, that won't work here." The Med Mart debate was littered with those types of comments. A couple of my friends told me Cleveland would never be a destination for medical conventions because "nobody wants to come to Cleveland." This kind of attitude has hurt the region in so many ways. It stifles economic growth and prevents many people in the region from thinking big.

"Bah! Pitt just gets lot of mileage outta them darned Steelers." I've always said that. It does a lot for the psyche of the entire region. It also gives everyone in the region something to rally around. Generally, Pittsburghers don't have the "woe is me" syndrome that seems to infect all of NEO. From a national perspective, Pittsburgh is seen as a winner because of the Steelers.

I think he meant within the city.

Pittsburgh really hasn't seen an influx of college grads. They still have have a hard time retaining young people. Its just the city offers better options than any of the suburbs. Imagine if Lakewood, Cleveland Hts, and Shaker Hts were within the city limits. My wife graduated from Pitt with a masters in public administration. She recently told me just about everyone she graduated with has left the region. However, the difference between the Pittsburgh and Cleveland is that there are still some pretty nice neighborhoods within the city limits. Squirrel Hill and Shady Side are very similar to Cleveland Hts and Shaker Hts. I think this is the biggest reason why Pittsburgh has a better reputation. Cleveland has some really nice inner-ring suburbs that are not within the city limits, whereas Pittsburgh's nicest areas are within the city limits. I think over time Cleveland's reputation will improve. Already Cleveland has a reputation as a great food city.

Pittsburgh's blue collar economy bottomed-out almost 25 years ago, so they've had a head start. I think we may look back at the early 2000's as Cleveland's bottom in terms of its manufacturing base. Also, there a number of demographic and geographic reasons that Pittsburgh has twice as many college grads living within the city. People always say Cleveland and Pittsburgh are similar. However, in my opinion, Cleveland and Detroit are more similar in terms of demographics and geography.