ksonic99

Thanks grumpy...but I was looking for something more non-specific and not really discussing any actual projects or proposals. how about some place to maybe talk about completely new and off the wall stuff. The cleveland area used to be covered in greenhouses, growing lots of tomatoes....that whole galleria thing. and the guy raising worms over in collinwood I think??? maybe start some hydroponic farms inside some of our abandoned factories?? one thing we have in abundance is fresh water, how do we leverage that? How about we build and ice hotel on edgewater beach, and have some sort of festival, we have a bit of ice a couple feet away. See if you cant get Stolichnya or some other vodka brand to sponsor it. Get some positive energy flowing. Cleveland can be better, but it isn't nearly as bad as people seem to think (a lot of them haven't been away from here methinks), and it will be hard to get back to it's gilded age(s) if that is even possible.

Thank you, that was what I was looking for. It wont work because of A, B, and C. There is a reasonable access point at the western edge, E. 9th st. right off the shoreway along with a light rail stop, so a marina/park would probably make more sense than lots of housing, how about one of those suburban style office campuses that everybody seems to leave cleveland for? either out in the eastern burbs/independence/westlake or another state? I think the obsession with it is that it is 1) on the lake, arguably our best asset 2) empty ie not currently occupied by housing/industry or anything else that sticks up out of the ground, so it is easy to imagine whatever you like on it. 3) seemingly (not that I necessarily agree with this assessment) a waste of space...an airport that strictly serves the corporate elite and not that heavily used. 4) so gosh darn visible, everybody on the shore way sees it every day...they don't live on the lake, rich people do, and there is a big empty field with lake views and access, that the rich/elites use to park their airplanes. much easier talking about putting it to a better use than say annexation or going "Detroit" sorry slavic village and Hough we will no longer maintain your infrastructure you will need to move somewhere else Personally I think we are better off trying to turn it into a Midway in Chicago. Can we get Airtran or somebody to work a flight to NYC out of there on a weekday basis? Plenty of people downtown/east side would be happy. The stuff we have been doing for the last 40 years or so isn't really working out so well.... I would bet that a wind farm would work pretty good there, right next to the non-operating CPP power plant that has all the heavy duty electrical infrastructure (at least I think it is not operational). I don't claim to have any answers, but am willing to participate in making it better. Is there a thread somewhere to discuss "theoretical" solutions? There are some bright people here maybe something can come from it.

For once I'm speechless. thank gawd. How about a little thinking outside of the box and come up with anything constructive instead of just sitting back and ripping everything apart. Did you miss the part where one sits on the lakefront and the other is a post industrial waste land? how about we re-purpose what we have.

If I were king of the world I would turn the Battery Park power house into a train station for commuter rail. coming in from grafton, berea and points southwest (at least it looks like that is where the tracks run, someone please correct me if I am wrong) and run a streetcar down detroit at least to Rocky river...and possibly to the county line. And the shoreway would look like clifton with lights and at grade cross streets to get to the park. I also think we should really consider moving burke to the near east side...between E 55th and the clinic, Between Chester and Carnagie. It would then sit between our 2 employment axis near rail, near the Euclid corridor, near the highways and OFF the lake. Is there enough land there? is there anything monumental that would prevent this? like perhaps the building heights downtown? could you solve that by orientating the the runways from the northeast to the southwest like hopkins, instead of E/W like burke? On the satelite map it looks like their is enough land. Setting aside the purely political issues involved, like the people living there are not going to want to move. is there anything else that would prevent this? That frees up burke for something useful. another park/marina? The fact that it is comprised of dredgings and probably toxic limit what kind of building you can do on it, but townhouses like the avenue district might be feasible. heck think outside the box, how about a nascar track with a professional soccer field on the infield? Much like detroit we are going to have to deal with the fact that cleveland has under 500,000 in population but must maintain infrastructure of a city of over 1 million. It doesn't really help to knock down every other house on a street when we still need to maintain the roads, sewers, and electrical to all the areas like all of those houses and people were still there. We need to figure out ways to consolidate.

I don't know you well enough to spend any energy disliking you. I find your arguments full of holes. So that dense urbanity you were speaking of was a parking lot? I have not impugned your character, I have questioned your observations. You have gone from tearing the project apart in its entirety to now tearing apart each of the components. Yup, you don't like it...got it. You don't like the median, you don't like the speed limit, you don't like the on/off ramps, you don't like the multipurpose path, you don't like the cliff. Let me preview the future. you won't like the landscaping, the lighting, the color of the paint on the bridge supports, that it is harder to get into/out of bounce, the contractors. the whole thing will take too long and cost too much. You don't like it You did like it, but your friends in lakewood talked you out of it. I got all of it...did I miss anything? surprise me, tell me something you like about it.

Linda's superette is a 2 story convenient store. Tall dense urbanity it is not. Did your friends in lakewood tell you about this tall dense urbanity, or do you have first hand knowledge of it? I don't have a picture of it but it is clearly labeled and visible in a google maps street view. Please go look at it and then come back and repeat your statement. "I find it architecturally significant, I'm astounded that anyone wouldn't, and I now hate this plan more than ever. " The only thing that marks it as any different than thousands of rinky dink mom and pop convenient stores is that it doesn't have a parking lot fronting the street or a pay phone. Perhaps you are referring to the Jamestown building next door to the Kitchenette? a 4 story brick walk up? I find that building architecturally "interesting" not significant. It is probably better constructed and more visibly appealing than any new development that will occur around the W. 25th st Detroit intersection but it isn't significant. And if it was on w 9th you could convert it and sell each floor for north of $250,000 perhaps up to 500,000 if there are 4000 square feet/floor. Most of the heavy industry isn't on 25th st. it is either in the flats, on detroit, over past W.45th st. or south of detroit right around 28th. Truck traffic will not go through the middle of anything it isn't going through now. What makes you thing "we" hate cars? I have one, I drive it every day, I also take the bus and the train, even cabs. Different modes of transport for different reasons. Why is wanting to have more options available somehow "hating" cars? I would prefer that PEOPLE have the top spot over cars. What makes the most sense for the most people. Look they are getting a new I-90 interchange in Avon....when the region is stagnant or losing population, so we can turn more cornfields into McManions and strip malls. I don't think that is a very smart use of our limited resources BUT BUT BUT....I am not CONSTANTLY beating up those who will benefit from this or calling them or the idea dumb. It is smart for them. I live in this neighborhood, as do many posting here, it seems to be a good idea to those who it will affect the most. WE GET IT...YOU DON'T LIKE IT. Your point has been made, the horse is dead.

I dunno, this has been remarkably mild for an internet "discussion" The inter-tubes don't do nuance, My wife and I end up "fighting" over e-mail when we are saying the same thing. I suspect that this happens quite a bit to most people. ...the smiley face is not the end all be all. I will tell you this Mr. 327 reading your comments next to a bug eyed, vein popping avatar adds a certain "flavor" to your comments--he looks a lot like my uncle Jimmy who gets drunk at thanksgiving and rants about how the world has gone to heck. It is your choice, but if you want a better level of discourse you might want to switch to a puppy....nobody I know would "kick" a puppy, just sayin'.

wow...cant win the argument attack the person. fair enough. I used to live at 104 and lake....I have made the West shoreway commute. my anecdote is just as valid as yours.

Oh and I was using "you" the same way you were... Placing yourself in the shoes of somebody having to exit their driveway onto clifton during rush hour...that was pretty much your argument until it got crushed. You kept putting yourself there, to the detriment of everybody who will benefit from this...then you spent 3 pages defending your made up numbers. What have we deconstructed so far. speed heavy industry/remediation grade separation You are also completely ignoring that the plan will now have a multi purpose trail from West blvd to west 25th st. which means there is actually an opportunity to ride your bike from the near west side to edge of downtown (the end of the Detroit superior bridge) without having to fear riding in traffic, and at some point connecting to the towpath trail.

I see you completely ignore the other things north of the shoreway.. Like 2 parks and 3 marinas. which occupy more area than the salt mine/tugboat factory. And while the salt mine probably isnt going any where any time soon....perhaps with increased access the tugboat factory might find it better to sell the land they have now and move over to scranton peninusula or the port land.....hell if you make the property valuable enough there is nothing stopping the sale of the land the mine head occupies to a developer. all of the salt is miles under the lake there is no real need to have the mine head where it is except that is where it has always been.

I keep mentioning this "up the cliff from" element because that's part ot my reasoning in suggesting that the shoreway conversion may not be as beneficial as is hoped. These neighborhoods are physically separated from the lake by a lot more than just the shoreway, and changing the shoreway will not change the basic geography of the situation. Yes...and Hunnington beach is separated from Bay Village by a cliff. The cliff isn't the impediment...it is the 6 lane divided highway. with 1.5 access points over a 3 mile span. 65th is the only one that anyone currently actually uses, and the only one anyone not walking CAN use. no bikes, no rollerblades, no wheel chairs, no strollers.

That is nonsense Go from unenforced to enforced. You don't get to just "make stuff up" 50 to 35 <> 50% 70 to 50 <> 50%....so you give your side of the argument the most favorable treatment and the opposing side the worst? I don't need to "fiddle" with any numbers....it has already been done for you, more than once in this very thread...the ACTUAL numbers, no fiddling necessary. The Shoreway from West Blvd to E 6th is less than 3.5 miles, so slowing down from 60mph to 40mph should reduce free flow traffic travel time from about 3.5 minutes to...5 mins, no? It is telling that you need to Fiddle, discount direct counter examples and pretty much just make stuff up. You sir are not discussing in good faith. Battery Factory = heavy industry and requires remediation.....how hard is it for you to even consider conceding a point? Your argument was that the area north of the shoreway was comprised of heavy industry and required so much remediation that any other use was not worthy of considering.......The area SOUTH of the shoreway also consists of heavy industry....which has been successfully remediated and re purposed for residential use. Properties in battery park are selling for north of $200,000 (prices starts at $200,00 and rise rapidly from there) the next 2 projects to the west are selling for 240,00 to 350,000. How many neighborhoods in cleveland can claim that? especially considering it is the former site of a battery plant and not some (relatively) clean warehouse or a former greenhouse? Downtown, Tremont, edgewater (north of Clifton/lake) perhaps Westpark? This project will Improve Detroit shoreway. Edgwater Cudell Ohio city Everybody's access to Edgewater. at the minor inconvenience of northern lakewood and possibly rocky river. See, I concede the point that commute times from lakewood will increase. Look I will even concede a secondary point....during rush hours the "accordion" affect of traffic WILL increase the commute times by more than the 2 minutes..the delay will be exacerbated the further north and west you are. It will also cause some people to decide to use 90 instead of the shoreway for thier commute. This will cause slightly longer commute times on 90. See I can accept that 2 minutes isn't the "complete answer" but at 5 minutes or even 10 minutes in aggregate, it is worth it.....not only is it worth it to me, the powers that be have determined that it is worth it overall. ODOT, US Dept of transportation, NOACA, Cuyahoga county.....have all been given some sort of opportunity at input, and the project has been deemed worthy.

No they made Batteries...hence the name battery park. Where battery park is being placed used to have the worlds largest battery factory.....and of course lead needs no remediation, not like oil or anything? why don't you just say "this will affect my commute negatively" and leave it at that? Going from 50 mph to 35 mph = 50% reduction in speed and a battery factory <> heavy industry...... you are not doing yourself or your arguments any favors. Go here http://www.edgewaterpark.net/Some%20Edgewater%20History.htm and scroll down a little bit and check out the photo....Edgewater park as it existed in the past would sit completely under the current shoreway. The parkview tavern used to sit just above a little park that was right on the lake...Just like Burke and the Port land, pretty much everything out from the bluff is landfill. Which is why people making the helpful suggestion that we should close down burke and build on it are just plain stupid. It is a toxic landfill, it is the dredgings of the Cuyahoga....from the time when it was used as an open industrial sewer. Edgewater used to look a lot like Hunnington beach in Bay village, very small beach, hard up against the bluff. We already re-invented the wheel once...we turned a beach into a highway, and highly desirable residential land into industrial...we have also turned incredibly productive farmland into industrial/commercial/residential. We are now in the process of changing Industrial/commercial into residential. We (or at least I) get it...this will affect you negatively, so you don't like it very much. It affects me positively. and more importantly it is a positive for Cleveland. If it negatively affects Lakewood and Rocky River......well they haven't been so concerned about the decline of Cleveland (I grew up in RR) so my sympathy meter is pegged at 0.

moved on. to allocating revenue on a billed, empty, total miles algorithm with 11 variables.

Ksonic99: Because I don't want to get specific about my resume in an online forum. I may have used your software before, and if so, cool. But I would rather have you think me a liar than broadcast 327's secret identity to those who might recognize certain details. well that is fine. I choose to give your opinion 0 weight then. You are more than welcome to do the same to mine. and much like urban dwellers have heard since the fifty's On this item, you have lost, get over it.

I do logistics software for a living, why don't you explain And really explain how going from 50 mph to 35 mph is a 50% reduction..... Also explain why your commuting issue trumps my quality of life issues, because It really doesn't affect me negatively if you are stuck in your driveway on clifton. Having to drive from 70th to 45th or the end of the shoreway does. Having to drive to either place to simple get my car down to the park that I can throw a rock and hit is ridiculous. Perhaps Cleveland should design Cleveland streets to benefit people who live in Cleveland and not those who live in the suburbs especially since the 'burbs and its people have made it eminently clear that Cleveland is a wasteland they want nothing to do with. Driving to 73rd instead affects me and everybody living in Edgewater, detroit shoreway and cudell positively. Having traffic an 1/8 of a mile away going 35 instead of 50 does, more trees in the sea of concrete does. Being able to bike along it does. So how much does that count? 2 minutes? 5 minutes? don't like your commute, move or change jobs. You want to drive 60 MPH go up to 90.

here is a thread on a Frequent flier website about this...This is a very good resource for any thing air travel related and fairly good for anything travel related. http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/continental-onepass/1049594-continental-through-flights-direct-flights-major-nuisance-elites.html your specific questions Q: but what does that mean in terms of the logistics of actually traveling? A: essentially no difference between having 2 separate flight numbers. You will be given fewer frequent flyer miles though. Q: And is that saying anything about the future of European non-stops out of CLE :(? A: No---not that the future never looks or looked very bright for too many Euro non-stops. With CO joining the * alliance, a direct flight to Frankfurt probably has the best chance of happening. FRA is the main hub for Lufthansa, the German Airline that is the main Euro partner of the * alliance.

I would think a Pedicab business centered around moving people between Gateway, E 4th and the warehouse district would work fairly well. distances are fairly short but long enough that most people don't really want to walk them, especially through the areas that have to be transited. I think running the "trolley buses" on friday/sat nights between these areas would work as well, but running them in a loop around E 4th/Warehouse District/Ohio City/Tremont would be optimal.

there is a building at 58th and Herman, looks like it might fit the bill, it is in the same neighborhood as Battery park. google maps 58th and herman cleveland ohio then do a street view....you can see the Available sign on the building.

That is they beauty of being conservative. If it benefits me fantastic spend whatever you need to ESPECIALLY if it is detrimental to society as a whole.....if it benefits anyone else, especially poor swarthy folk then that is socialism and will be condemned.

- Tremont: 1213 Fairfield Ave... a bit outside the "action" if you will, I knew a guy who knew a guy who lived in those brick 4 units, pretty nice inside. Not a bad location - Tremont: 716 College Avenue is a block + off of Professor which is where the majority of the fine dining, a good section of bars and more than 3 art galleries are. Art walk is once a month. There will be parking issues if you have to park on the street. I would say college would be if you want to be in the thick of things...Fairfield if you want to be a little bit away. Also if you are at all athletic: www.clevelandplays.com They run a lot of co-ed sports...the fall touch football league is at Clark fields in tremont right next to the dog park. Everybody goes to the Treehouse after games (corner of college and professor). It is a good way to meet people. Clevelander's are very friendly, but hard to become friends with, if that makes sense. Most people here are FROM here, have their friends from high school and grade school, and their families. 6 degrees of separation is scary here, it is very small townish in that regard. That and the east side/west side divide :-). Which ever side of the river you end up on, that will probably be the one you spend 90% of your time. That and I will bet you a Great Lakes brewing company Christmas ale that you will find Cleveland to be so much nicer than a good solid minority, if not majority, of the people that live here :-) I have travelled extensively, I love C-town and wouldn't live anywhere else, convinced my wife to move here from Manhattan....but you will get so much "you moved here from Chicago, why would you do that?" that you will start questioning what these people know that you don't? restless8052 you moved here from Boston, what say you?

go to your favorite mapping tool....such as Google maps. zoom in on downtown Cleveland look just south where 90 and 490 meet, this is the southwest corner of tremont...the river forms the other side of a triangle, You will probably want to make sure the prospective address is in that triangle. East of 90 North of 490. There is a bit of land south of 490 but still east of 90, this might be acceptable, but stay north of clark. I lived there for the last 10 years or so before moving over to Detroit Shoreway. One of my best friends from high school was an "urban pioneer" in the area he moved there in 1994, he owns 6 rental houses on W. 12th st between castle and clark. none are vacant at the moment, and you probably want to be north of there anyway. What kind of budget are you looking at? I was paying $600 for the upper floor of a double with off street parking. there is at least one $300,000 townhouse for rent for $1750.00 http://tremontplacelofts.com/apartments.htm might be worth a look. If you PM me an address or 3 I can render a more specific opinion. Generally speaking the further north you are the better. Most of the fancy restaurants run along professor between jefferson and literary. Tremont has a bar scene but I would say it is more "30's" than "20's" it does have some "divey" type places but for the most part it is more upscale so not too crazy. I would look for rentals that offer off street parking of some sort, lots of bars and fine dining without too many parking lots means it can be difficult to find parking on the street. There are not too many apartment buildings, most of what you will find are 1/2 houses, up/down.

Yup our current financial meltdown is the responsibility of poor brown and black urban folk....not rich white republican bankers. Not only is the CRA very unlikely to have spurred tons of imprudent lending, but we have no less a source than Ben Bernanke frankly telling Community Affairs Research Conference in March of 2007 that (emphasis added): ..changes in the structure of the financial industry have resulted in many financial transactions that fell under the CRA umbrella in 1977 having become increasingly the province of nondepositories not subject to CRA, including companies owned by banks or bank holding companies. Holding companies' nonbank affiliates, for instance, can be included in the CRA assessment of the banking institution at the discretion of the bank but need not be. Most mortgages are now packaged by brokers, and nearly two in three mortgages are originated by nondepositories not covered by the CRA. Not only are most mortgages issued by entities that are outside the CRA, but there's plenty of evidence on what actually did cause the dammed meltdown. For example, we have a very detailed study conducted by two authors from the University of Chicago Graduate School of Business titled "The Consequences of Mortgage Credit Expansion: Evidence from the 2007 Mortgage Default Crisis." Their conclusion (emphasis added): Our central finding is that a rapid expansion in the supply of credit to zip codes with high latent demand for mortgages is a main cause of both house price appreciation from 2001 to 2005 and the subsequent sharp increase in defaults from 2005 to 2007. The expansion in credit supply was driven by a shift in the mortgage industry towards “disintermediation”, which we define as the process in which originators sell mortgages in the secondary market shortly after origination. http://watchingthewatchers.org/news/1458/right-never-wrong-part-6000

It would really help if you defined "cheap" there is a YMCA downtown that would suffice I suppose. Are you coming from NYC, Boston, Philly, Chicago, San Fransisco, Miami or LA? the ritz will be "cheap" at $249 a night. Are you coming from Ona West Virgina , Ceadar Rapids Iowa , Memomanie Falls Wisconsin, or Bay City Michigan (in the winter)? Then the $49/ night days inn in Lakewood would probably be your best bet. (no flames please, I have actually spent time in those places and know the cost of a hotel room) Metro Detroit can mean either one really. http://www.sidestep.com/hotels go here type in your dates..sort by either distance or price. for Fri-Sun this weekend The Ritz is $249/night Hyatt is $135 Crowne Plaza is $92 The Holiday in is $86 The Radison is $83 All within easy walking distance of downtown < .5 miles Anything less than a mile or so could be considered downtown Once you are > 1 mile I would go out at least 5 or so.... and wouldn't stay in anything > 10. It also depends on what you want to do. Park the car until you leave? then definitely downtown same with drinking and NOT driving. If you would rather save a buck or 2 and drive to get to the action then pretty much anything in Cuyahoga county is within 15-25 minute drive. There is also a Days in in Lakewood for $48/night that is not a terrible location (cant say anything about the actual hotel) and is on a busy bus line. The La Quinta mentioned on the Rapid line on the west side is $65 which will get you cheap accommodations with easy access to both Downtown and W. 25th that has a bunch of bars/restaurants and the Westside Market...which is a great place to visit. You can also work priceline if that is your thing...I have seen the Hyatt for $49 a night through priceline before.

One thing that everybody is missing in all of this discussion. A casino in Cleveland means that there will be $10-$25 bus trips from everywhere within a 2-4 hour drive of Cleveland. Will somebody in Erie PA pay 20 dollars to get on a bus to Cleveland for a day? Or $10 from Oberlin? or $5 from Canton? These are people who are currently getting on Buses (or in their cars) and driving to Niagara Falls, Detroit, Windsor, PA, and WV.... You really think people in Youngstown wont come up on Friday after work or Saturday afternoon go to the casino and THEN to the browns game? Or Drive up on Friday night, spend a night at the casino and then go to the Tribe game? Extra hotel night and 3 extra meals eaten somewhere. Heck you might even get somebody to come from St. Louis, or Louisville, or even Denver....Football Hall of fame, rock and roll hall of fame, 3 major sports teams....and now they have a casino...someplace people from not from here KNOW is there and they can spend X # of hours in. We all know about the great stuff to do here..how many people know what the Goodtime III or the Nautica Queen are?...or what a great neighborhood Little Italy or Tremont are? or that Playhouse square, the Orchestra, and the Art Museum exist? Or how great E 4th and the Warehouse district are. Everybody I have ever met who has actually been to Cleveland is more than pleasantly surprised and how great it is (except for a large minority of folks that live here). Give them 1 more reason to come here just once and it will pay off tremendously. Even if it is "Cleveland is great I got off the airplane got on a train in the airport and 20 minutes later I was checked into my hotel and in the casino never having to go outside and all it cost was $2.25". Baltimore and Chicago both have flights here for around $100...You watch those people come piling in here for the Casino + whatever other thing floats their boat like the Tribe playing the white sox or the Oriels. Hell it is cheaper to fly here, get a hotel room for the weekend and go to 2 Tribe Yankees games than it is to buy a ticket to Yankee stadium. Throw in a Casino???? you will double the number of people getting on a bus or plane to come here. The Cavs they know, the RR HOF they know...A casino the will KNOW that they can go kill a day at. And at least some of those people will ask you or me or the hotel concierge, front desk worker, or the person sitting next to them at Progressive Field or the Q, where to eat, or what else there is to do in this town. And I will still go to gamble in Vegas, AC, Windsor, Detroit, Niagara falls, and Pittsburgh because in all of those places I know I can gamble AND see a game, a show, a band, eat at Primanti brothers, get Duty Free, or watch the tribe play the home team. See I wont travel JUST to gamble, but it certainly gets into the decision matrix.