Grumpy

I think both your questions and this reply probably should go in the travel section rather than transportation. No, but I've jogged a lot of that route. On a Saturday morning, pretty light for the most part. You'll probably only notice the traffic at a handful of intersections (Vine St, SOM Center, etc.) I guess that depends on your perspective. If you're used to riding on the streets in Cleveland, you should be fine. There is a bike lane for parts of the route. (I think just Willoughby and Mentor) Mostly flat, the only hill you'll really notice is around the valley where the Chagrin river cuts through Eastlake. It tends to be very breezy along this part of the lakeshore, but unless the local weather is forecasting high winds, you should be ok. Bikes aren't that unusual a site in Lake County, (I live about half a mile from Shoregate) but it's never a bad idea to be extra careful about ignorant drivers. I'd stay on the sidewalk for the first half mile or so, till Vine Street, but beyond that the road drops down to 2 lanes and speed limit goes down so you'll feel a lot safer. (To be honest, I'm not positive if the speed limit goes down there, or I just drive slower.) I don't remember for sure, but I think the bike lane ends and traffic speed picks up once you get a little ways into Mentor, so be careful there too.

JetDog, The incidents of overcrowding that I described were a while back, and I submitted comments on the issues via RTA's website about them at the time. I haven't ridden on the 39F for several months now, as I've moved, but it was very overcrowded in the afternoons around 4pm. For the most part the busses are kept clean, with a few exceptions, that I also mentioned in comments to RTA, but it seems like no one remembers to wipe off the hand rails. I appologize if I got a little overly negative in my post the other day, I was having a long day. I tried to send this to you by PM and it says your inbox is full.

^And I can usually tell if its turning by the little blinking lights on the front of the bus. I understand the blind can't see these, but with all the echoing beeping, I still don't think a blind person can tell if a bus is coming any easier.

I like the POP idea, and think it should be used more widely. Like on the regular buses; If you have a pass you can get on at the back door, if you have to pay, get on at the front door and pay then. Maybe I just feel that way because I've seen POP used really well (I lived in Vienna for a few months in '98.) Since everyone else is complaining about RTA, and I do go by Grumpy, I think I should chime in. The problems I have with RTA are that they cut back the schedules too much, the beeping is insulting, and they don't keep the inside of the buses clean. I understand why so many of the bus schedules were cut back over the last couple years, but if a route I was taking every day was already standing room most days during rush hour, and it operated every 10 minutes, what did you expect would happen when you cut it to every 20 minutes? If a bus passes me up once (because they have no room) and I have to wait an extra 20 minutes, fine, but when it happens more than once in the same afternoon, I get pissed off. (On a related note, I also get upset when I get kicked off just because I can't fit behind the white line. If I can't get behind the line, its not my fault, you need to get a bigger bus) Now the beeping. I understand that RTA felt they had to try something to prevent accidents. In fact I applaud them for their creativity at trying this. The thing is, now that they've tried it, they need to realize that they're annoying most everyone that comes downtown. Why don't you just instruct your drivers to start flipping the bird to everyone that lives or works near a bus route. The beeping is showing them that you think nothing of them or their ability to enjoy being outside. Its disrespect at an obscene level. By refusing to acknowledge that this experiment is a failure, they're irritating their customers, and giving an even worse perception of bus riding than it already was. "Your beeping bus is worse than a short bus because at least the drivers on the short bus know how to avoid running people over". Finally cleanliness. I've never in my life been considered a neat freak. I don't mind a little bit of dirt, the occasional candy wrapper or whatnot in the bus. I do mind though, if I'm standing on the bus, when I grab the grab bars and my hands turn black because its obvious no one has wiped them in months. If that happened once, I could care less, but it happens all the time. I also have a problem with getting on the bus at the beginning of the route, when the driver has obviously had time to do something (he sat and read the paper for 15 minutes) and yet there's still garbage sitting on the bus. All that would take is 30 seconds to walk through the bus, pick up some garbage and throw it in the can at the stop where he took his break.

OK, now that's something I can compare with. I don't go to Columbus often, but if I was; 135 miles at 30mpg, works out at 4.5 gallons. 4.5 gallons at $3.00 per gallon works out to $13.50. So, if I'm going somewhere where a colleague, friend, or family member can meet me at the train station and I don't have to drive while I'm there, I'm spending $5.40 for the privilege of being able to read or stare out the window, and avoid putting an extra 135 miles onto my car. That's fair and I'd pay it gladly. If, however, I need a car when I'm there, or I'm bringing the wife and kids, then its not as good a deal, and driving might be a better option. Our state legislators.

KJP, I like your idea. I had to draw it on Google Earth and spend a few minutes trying to find reasons to dislike it compared with a straight shot in on the tracks next to 90 before I started warming up to it, but I do understand why you picked that routing. I don’t like that the route adds a couple miles (if we say 2 miles out of the way at an average speed of 30 mph, that means an extra 4 minutes, but I don’t know if we could expect an average of 30mph through there) and I really don’t like that the route ends in Tower City (the Amshak may be a crappy excuse for a station, but I prefer its location). What I do like is that you’re picking up a significant number of people in the east side suburbs that work in the University Circle area, that currently have no good option for getting there. Sure extending the Red line would get the people in Euclid (and between Euclid and Windermere), but by routing the commuter route through UC you avoid the need for a red line extension, plus you give the people in Lake county a way to get to that side of town. On top of that this could serve as a sort of express route for people going all the way from Windermere to Tower City. My only criticism is I think you need a station between Euclid and Willoughby. That’s a 6.5 mile stretch through what is one of the most densely populated parts of Lake County. Consider that Laketran is currently providing commuter bus service from Wickliffe with the route 12, and it’s consistently one of the busiest routes Laketran offers.

I'm not suggesting extending the WFL further east than E 105th. There's just too many issues with finding a right of way. In fact, even then, it would probably be more expensive than its worth. I'd much rather see a commuter rail line operating to the east, with stops in/near Collinwood. The sad thing to me is in 1985 RTA tested out a commuter "railbus" on this very route. The test was a success, by most accounts, but RTA said the idea needed "further study".

Well if we start talking about going that far out light rail becomes a less attractive option (doesn't go as fast, smaller cars, more expensive because of the overhead wires) and so we're realistically talking about commuter rail if we want something on tracks. If we're talking about commuter rail heading out that direction, than I don't think we should discount the idea simply because it crosses a county line. After all, Laketran has been providing commuter busses into Cleveland for years, so there's already a base of riders ready and willing to hop on board. (Though their numbers have been falling since they announced fare increases. $3.75 each way, are you serious Laketran?) Also since Laketran has been losing money on the commuter bus routes, I imagine they'd be happy to see someone take over getting people to downtown. If you could get all the Laketran riders on board, plus add in the ridership from the 239 and 39F, I don't see how a line headed out to Painesville, with stops at E 105th, E 185th, Euclid Square Mall, Wickliffe, Willoughby, and Mentor wouldn't be able to fill its seats. I don't think many of us would deny that extending the WFL to Collinwood or Euclid would be fantastic for those neighborhoods. The problem is, I think we'd have a hard time convincing people that it would attract anywhere near enough riders to justify the expense. Interesting idea. But if that were done, where would you propose the line go once it gets north of Coit Rd? Personally, I'd rather see the Red line extended along its current ROW out to the Euclid park-n-ride. Sure it would take twice as long to get from there to downtown as a bus, or a commuter train (like what I mentioned a few paragraphs ago) but it would be a one seat ride from the NE corner of the county to University Circle. Right now the fastest way to get from Euclid to UC on RTA is via downtown, which has always seemed insane to me.

That, and the west side is much better served by our freeway layout than is the east. Plus we already have our "underused failure of a" waterfront line pointing toward Collinwood but dead-ending in a downtown parking lot. My dad used to live in Collinwood and was shocked to hear that it no longer has any rail service... and he's not exactly what you'd call an urbanist. Oh yeah, and the MM/CC is now on this line as well. As much as we need new stations and light rail rehab, we should not continue to ignore the sunk cost of the waterfront line, and what it clearly implies to everyone who looks at a service map. Well, before someone yells to get this tread back on topic, (I better type fast) I agree that the waterfront line is a joke and should be extended. From looking at a google maps, its not like there's even anything significant in the way between the current end of the line and E 55th. All it would take is a little grading, a bridge over the innerbelt, and lay some track. It could all be done pretty cheaply IMO. Beyond E 55th, you've got where the port authority wants to put tracks in to get to the new port, so you'd have to coordinate with them so as not to block where they want to put in the tracks. Then half a mile or so further you'd have to find a way to get past the tracks leading into the coal power plant. Sure it could be done, but it wouldn't be cheap. If you figured out to get past that (and found the money to do it) then there does look like there's enough room between the NS mainline and the shoreway. (Assuming NS is willing to sell a siding that they don't seem to use much. They've been using it as a parking lot for the same old cars for a few months, and before that I don't think I ever saw it used in the couple years I've been coming down 90 into Cleveland.) That would get you out as far as Coit Rd, beyond that you've got a pretty busy rail yard that would be a real pain to get around. As far as commuter rail, in that direction, I'm all for it, but I'm pretty certain if I went there I'd see a bloody axe pretty quickly.

Well for a few pictures that haven't been posted the building so far... For a colorized version of the picture above, http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/postcards&CISOPTR=1678&CISOBOX=1&REC=5 Another colorized view of the intersection, http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/postcards&CISOPTR=1731&CISOBOX=1&REC=7 The Hickox building that used to be across the street, http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/postcards&CISOPTR=1734&CISOBOX=1&REC=9 View from the East circa 1910, http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/postcards&CISOPTR=1743&CISOBOX=1&REC=18 Colorized view from a postcard, http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/postcards&CISOPTR=1746&CISOBOX=1&REC=1 Not a picture of the building but a picture from it, http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/postcards&CISOPTR=3142&CISOBOX=1&REC=4 Here the first floor of the building is in the background to the left, http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm4/item_viewer.php?CISOROOT=/press&CISOPTR=1220&CISOBOX=1&REC=11

^FYI, you do realize you can modify your posts if you think of something else to add, instead of constantly adding new posts, right?

Midtown, Really? I wouldn't even think of this as among the worst neighborhoods in Cleveland. I don't buy it.

^Ok, which one of us is looking at the map sideways? The Nautica stage (or whatever they're calling it now) looks like its east of the building to me.

I noticed yesterday that the old HoJo building has a sign up in front for Lakeview and says they're putting up apartments and condos with construction starting in 2010. (Or at least I think that's what it said, I was sitting on the bus at the time.)

Well here's an image from the webcam that's not nearly as pretty as yours. ftp://ftp.va.gov/Cleveland-Med-cent/cares.jpg

Accounting Technician for the Federal Government (Yes, I'm wasting your tax dollars spending my day on UO instead of doing my job) and part-time student (studying Information Systems)

I should take more notice of that next time I'm in Ohio. So many parts of Michigan cities exploded during that time. If you were to demolish every unoccupied structure in the city of Detroit, I'd believe the majority of homeowners would live in the 1930-1960 structure range. From what I've seen, it looks like Ohio really did a lot of building in that time frame as well, however most of the building was going on in the suburbs (which don't get so much representation on UO.)

While stops little towns may only add 4-5 minutes, they psychologically slow down the trip a lot more than that in my opinion. Every time Amtrak has to slow down for a stop in some little tiny town you can hear someone grumbling about it. (Admittedly though, last time I was on the train, I think I did most of the grumbling.)

FirstMerit and USAA

A couple of my coworkers take the Northcoast Express bus daily and have said it's standing room only most days. Considering passengers are paying $5 each way to stand on a bus from Akron rather than drive, I'd guess that a commuter train would be very welcome to a lot of people commuting between Akron and Cleveland. Yes, but to rebut you with your own words... Its a perfect market for commuter rail since so many people are already commuting, many of them by bus, plus we already have the right of way. It seems to me that if the train just went to the north side of Akron (say, tallmadge ave or thereabouts), so that the above grade crossing by Arlington wasn't needed, and shared the tracks with Norfolk Southern (Busy as they may be already) we should be able to get this off the ground for a lot less than $190 Million. Also is it possible that the 13-mile stretch that Akron Metro owns could be used without a complete rebuild? I know it hasn't been maintained but, it was used as recently as the mid-90s for freight wasn't it? Yes, Silver Lake lost its lawsuit in '06 to prevent the dinner train, but as you know, before that they managed to convince AMATS to drop its CAC study back in '02. http://www.ecocitycleveland.org/transportation/rail/nocommuter.html Perhaps we should be continuing this discussion here, here or here

For a guy named grumpy to call you a little overly pessimistic isn't that bad. For a guy named Chicken Little to call you overly pessimistic would be a real insult. Just because I have a poor disposition toward people doesn't mean I expect the worst to happen in life. It just means that I don't like it when it does happen.

I don't think it's fair to criticize him for sitting on the steering board for the OC. In fact I think its completely appropriate that our transit cheif be involved in transportation decisions not directly related to transit so that he can fight for better transit access to the area, and make sure that RTA isn't ignored in the planning process for the new road. I think that being involved in planning a new highway is a poor reason to criticize the man, especially since there are so many better reasons to be dissatisfied with him.

it seems that akron would be the better starting point, continuing to cleveland, and then from cleveland to columbus, dayton, cincinnati. this way you get service between akron and cleveland that could be competitive for commuting, and still connect the akron region into the overall rail corridor. any idea on the cost for starting akron to cleveland corridor? and is this being considered at all? Um, wouldn't it make more sense to have a Cleveland-Akron commuter line that's not connected to the 3C line? (That idea has been discussed, and has its own thread, but the town of Silver Lake shot it down a few years ago.) Going through Cleveland on the way from Akron to Columbus would be well out of the way: it would add to capital costs (refurbishing the line from Akron to Cleveland) , and Operating costs (extra fuel, extra hourly pay for staff).

The Optimist sees the glass as half full, The Pessimist sees the glass as half empty, You seem like the kind of person that sees the glass as a swimming pool for the bacteria that you just knows are in there waiting for you.

I think this is a bad idea. Now I'm going to blow through cash faster, and have a harder time losing weight. :roll: -me, 6 months from now