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Put an airport in the center of the east side and put townhouses on the dredgings of Burke, where there already is an airport. For once I'm speechless.

5 million for still more BRT studies but nothing for the Shaker line bridges, which are becoming transparent and where the trains have to go 5 mph. At least a grassy median down Clifton would look nice and fit the neighborhood. BRT tool-sheds would not. Clifton is elegant the way it is. This would take it down several notches, to say nothing of the money blown. On Euclid we could blame Bush and his goons for being anti-rail. Now there's nowhere left to look but inward.

Points made, and thank you X. I yield my remaining 11 posts to the floor.

Seconded. That is an excellent piece.

"Southbound" on Mayfield Road?

I used to like the entire concept. All of it. Every aspect, as originally presented years ago. But I hadn't thought it through, nor had I really understood the other side's points at that time. As with all things, your mileage may vary. It is absolutely false that "don't like the on/off ramps" because that's the polar opposite of my stated position on that. Either I was lying when I stated that position, several times so far, or I wasn't. Make a choice. As of now you're claiming I said something I didn't say, and you're holding it against me. For the last time... I support adding access to the shoreway from the neighborhoods. And I don't understand what I've said to indicate that I "don't like" the cliffs. That's just goofy. The cliffs were discussed, but what a curious characterization of the point I tried to make about them. As far as examining the general idea, and then the specific components... yes, that is how I analyze a project plan. Guilty as charged. Go ahead and question my analysis or my view of the facts all day long. But please scan through your posts for the word "you," especially that last one. The subject of that post is obviously not the shoreway plan. The shoreway plan is an it, not a you.

WE GET IT... YOU DO LIKE IT... AND YOU DON'T LIKE ME. That horse is dead as well. I may "beat up" on an idea or an argument I diagree with, but I make efforts to avoid going after the speaker's character. I may even lampoon an outlook, and I don't mind having my outlook lampooned... but challenging someone's personal honesty is a different matter. If you feel I've been too harsh with you, at any time, let me know or let a moderator know. Please do not consider it an invitation for a personal pissing contest. FYI I used to park at W26th and Detroit every morning and wait there for a bus downtown. I wouldn't write so much about this topic if I weren't intimately familiar with the areas involved. Contrary to your clear implication, I do not come on here to lie to people about what I know, what I believe, or why I believe it. As stated many times recently... I would appreciate any effort you can muster to deal strictly with the discussion topic and not the character of other forumers. At the moment we're talking about aspects of this project that were not dealt with last week, or at any point that I know of. Linda's Superette is no Terminal Tower. My original post left out the word tall, but I added it in an edit after I compared its 2-story glory with what so often gets built these days. I don't think it should be leveled so we can put more truck traffic onto a side street in this neighborhood. It's more than significant enough to not tear it down for that purpose.

^ I think the Walmart building is almost new, as it the entire development... and Walmart moved out, of what was practically a new building, because they kept having to vacate the store due to unsafe levels of flammable gas.

That rockycal6 character is some piece of work. All his stuff is like that, or worse.

Opportunity costs exist. And it seems like the "guarantee" nature of this is only relevant to the extent one believes that independent films tend to be profitable. Under no ascertainable standard is this a wise public investment, in fact it borders on appalling.

This is exactly why I chose not to use the poop metaphor.

That's what I had originally typed... but I decided that it implied too much and opened additional cans of worms.

Agreed, Loretto... hell no we can't finance basic retail, but we'll put 1.2 million of an impoverished city's money behind some independent films. Shall we also buy some rare coins? How about some fine collectors plates from the Franklin Mint? I'm told those just shoot up in value. Economic development can be straightforward and logical... there's no need to impress 15-year-olds with how cool we are.

Speak for yourself... I would be extremely upset if that building came down. I find it architecturally significant, I'm astounded that anyone wouldn't, and I now hate this plan more than ever. More destruction of tall dense urbanity in the service of boulevard vibrant greenspace, and more decisions about cars and trucks made by people who hate them. Why would we want to route truck traffic through the middle of this neighborhood, when currently all those trucks can bypass it? This is beginning to sound not just ill-advised but insane.

If you're in a swimming pool... and there's a dead squirrel floating waaaaay down at the other end... does that distance really matter, when you're evaluating whether to remain in that pool? No. The entire pool's either clean or it's not. The clean end of a clean pool is better than the clean end of the dead-squirrel pool.

3C actually made more sense in 1978. How much development was outside the outerbelts, and in the collar counties, back in 1978? And those maps on the previous page don't really demonstrate an entire plan being updated. The plan has been the same all along... we do 3C first, without question, no matter what changes occur in Ohio or in the national economy that might suggest a new priority on out-of-state connections. A plan is not just a map, it's a set of decisions about what to do when and why. Notably, I see Youngstown, Toledo, Pittsburgh, Chicago, and a host of other lines and connections on all those maps. They don't attempt to answer the question of priority... but somebody did, and I'm still trying to ascertain how they did that.

The problems are already someone else's... they're everybody's. If you live on the east side you live right by East Cleveland. Even if you live on the west side, or out in Solon, East Cleveland remains "your" problem. You just don't have to live in it, which is nice for you. It drags down property vaules far outside its borders by being in the same metro and being so nasty. If Solon and Westlake were suburbs in a metro that didn't have an East Cleveland, or that had a decent East Cleveland, they'd have higher values themselves.

Agreed...Detroit is wide enough there as are its sidestreets. Better for that area to continue as it has. I'm perplexed. We could care less about traffic on the shoreway itself, where traffic matters, but let's tear up an acutal neighborhood because we anticipate tons of traffic on the "new" W28th.

It's a shame though, that great ideas like KJP's are lost to history while the people making decisions about these projects ignore them. How many chances will we get to fix this interstate conundrum downtown? Not another in our lifetimes, I reckon.

^ I think you're thinking of the Coventry stop of the green line, and I don't believe the little tudor thing is still open. Still looks nice though.

Yes you can. You absolutely can. If we were to do something less elaborate here, like fix up the tunnels and provide some additional shoreway access, that leaves us (or the state, whomever) with more money for other things. It's not like we don't have a backlog of projects that need funded. And I'm beginning to wonder which text at CSU MUPPD says "thrown down some grass and some automotive barriers" to develop a city. That seems to be the thrust of everything I hear these days. It's always the same story, slow driving and empty grassland are what makes a city great. And heavy industry is so yesterday that even going concerns must yield to the interests of vibrant greenspace. I will say though that some of these ideas sound fantastic for Galveston. This here is a northern industrial port, and I'm sorry, but most of our urban development successes are going to involve structures and indoor amenities. Less like a Mediterranean resort... more like London. Again, I'm very sorry to point this out. But there you go.

East Cleveland should be annexed. That alone won't solve its problems, but I can't envision those problems being solved until then. It needs to be redeveloped in conjunction with University Circle and that's a lot easier to do when it's all one entity. Think about the political stories coming out of there recently. That sort of thing dissuades development.

^ This seems typical for golf-themed bars though. It's never been the most inviting of sports.

Taft was the one who cut the taxes. Drastically. Ohio's current budget mess is not because the economy just got up and left-- it didn't-- it's because Ohio voluntarily reduced its tax collections by a substantial margin. This policy has been phasing in over the past few years and I believe it's done this year. Ohio now has some of the lowest business taxes in the entire nation. And while there still is an income tax, that too was reduced a great deal.

So Strickland represents the status quo even after Voinovich and Taft, and even though Ohio's main legislative accomplishment for the aughts was to slash taxes.