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It's a critical mass conversation. It seems to me (opinion) that the critical mass issue is one of retail, i.e. they're inseparable. If you disagree, that's still a critical mass conversation.

Galleria: We didn't need two malls, and this one had no anchor. Automatic fail. Tower City: That's what I'd like to know. When we compare Cleveland to other similar downtowns, it looks to me like there's a difference in policy regarding major retail. Dillards may have required a level of subsidy Cleveland wasn't willing to meet. Another thing I've noticed is that many downtown retail landlords here enjoy pricing themselves out of the market. They'd rather sit empty than take a lower rent. This goes against basic market economics. Someone should be filling those spaces but greed is intervening. So maybe FCE was/is charging too much. Either way, the total financial picture wasn't sufficient for Dillards or anyone else. Other cities solve this problem with subsidies; we haven't thus far. We subsidize residential instead. The way FCE has casually moved non-retail into the Higbee space tells me they aren't serious about saving the mall as retail, because retail typically doesn't work without an anchor store. What map are you looking at? Where's Lakewood's mall? That's 50k people in a city designed specifically to take advantage of downtown retail. Are you counting Beachwood/Legacy for 7-8 different east side communities? It sounds like you are. Is that fair to downtown, when we refuse to count Ohio City or Old Brooklyn as being within its market area? What is the scientific reason for using different rules for downtown? Under this "new math," of course downtown will fail. We were talking about grocery stores. That example applied to grocery stores. Based on what? You mean the inner ring too? Based on what? What about the rest of Cleveland? People keep saying this sort of thing, and I find it so pessimistic. I might accept it as realistic if it were more than an assertion. If all the weight behind it is "Ned Hill says," I'm still calling it an assertion. And I've heard before about the imbalance of retail space we have here. How does that affect people in the downtown market area? Other than making them buy cars to drive to the suburbs... it doesn't. It doesn't change their need for urban retail. They remain the exact same underserved market regardless of any suburban retail glut.

The key point for me is that the residents decide to move in AFTER and BECAUSE OF available retail. You don't get to this magic population number BEFORE the retail scene emerges. To me, this realization destroys the Critical Mass theory as stated. The theory is backwards, and it doesn't survive comparison to observable patterns.

That's how it appears. But I don't understand it. The fact that nobody can agree on the boundaries of downtown makes me wonder how any such number can be ascertainable. How is downtown to be separated from the "center city" for these calculations? What purpose would that separation serve? OK Stonebridge is technically in Ohio City. So what? Would this not also suggest that no community under 25k (15K?) could support a grocery store? Or that if you divide a larger community by its number of grocery stores you should get a number between 15k and 25k? Do we have data on this? I think Niles is under 25k, but it has several grocery stores. But Niles has communities around it, just like downtown Cleveland does. Maybe people from Girard shop at one of Niles' many grocers. Nope... Girard is smaller, and poorer than Niles or downtown Cleveland, yet it supports its own grocers. Has Ned Hill been to Girard? I believe McDonald even has its own grocery, and nothing about McDonald says "critical mass." Thus, I'm skeptical about this theory. Extremely skeptical. I don't even understand its basis. Were businesses consulted about why they don't always follow these rules? What I'm not skeptical about is downtown Cleveland's ability to prosper regardless of critical mass. I find it interesting that you see prospective residents measuring "critical mass" by what retail would be available to them. That's more in line with how I see it.

I thought it was clear from my post that I had just read that page. I just read it again, and my curiosity remains.

I'm guilty of using this Critical Mass buzzword while having no idea what it really means. It's been interesting in reading this thread to discover the origins of the term. Apparently Ned Hill's number is 25k and somebody else has a 15k number. But can anyone help me understand the concept of Critical Mass? What does this number divide, and why does it do so? Since downtown Cleveland has presumably never reached Critical Mass, what evidence supports the theory? How has it played out in practice?

My point, the one I communicated poorly, was that given the rationale for building this Annex in the first place, you could hardly expect any NY publication to encourage people to visit Cleveland to see the Rock Hall ever again. It was built because they felt they were too good to come here, in the manner people go to their city to see things, and that's how I read the "unfortunately" bit. Posting something on a site of that nature is not the same as saying it to the wind. That stuff comes up on search engines, like when someone in New England for example is interested in visiting the Rock Hall. How many people will seek "reputable publications" before they google something? This isn't 1985. That hypothetical New Englander may discover that other east coast people found the trip to Cleveland unfulfilling enough to build an east coast Rock Hall. The way it's promoted, it's far from clear that people would care much about the "Annex" distinction. Why would they promote it as junior or halfass? They wouldn't and they won't. Bottom line: it's not in Cleveland, and that is their sole selling point. Regarding the governor's time... we've been through that in another thread, and we know that other governors do exactly what I've suggested for ours. So don't act like I'm making things up.

This lakefront plan needs to move ahead quickly. I also agree with the consultants who note that our riverfront is cooler than our lakefront. But as for the lakefront, all we've done in the past decade is tacitly reject the Campbell plan, however much that cost, and hire another group to do another painstakingly vague rendering. I'd like to believe the PBS article from the last page, but I don't see where we're any closer to building on the land around the stadium. We have yet to see any clear rendering for what goes there. We have a general idea that some sort of water feature will be involved. Great. EDIT: I removed two sentences about [that other city].

Good philosophizing on both counts.

I noticed that too over the weekend. The wording softened, and the tone shifted to what did the car do wrong. It really does seem like complaints about inappropriate wording were taken to heart and addressed.

What kind of property taxes does the port pay? The answer would start here. If new development could increase the tax base, those increased revenues could be used to retire bonds. This also works well if you're building something that has entrance fees, like a stadium. Private industrial stuff tends to pay a lot of taxes, so if there's a significant amount of that stuff to be replaced with low-revenue residential, the TIF format may not work so well. Anyway, the city or county or state would finance the project with bonds tied to these income streams. Ohio and its subdivisions cannot assist private enterprise with financing tied to their general taxing authority. Our constitution doesn't allow it. So the trick is to identify specific revenue streams that both investors and courts find credible. The federal government has a lot more leeway. To get at that money, our DC representation must first recognize the need and then ask for the money. That's how that works. Of course there are then layers of studies which must be performed, but first and foremost it's a political issue. We need to hear our leaders talking about these projects.

I agree with that blogger as well. Not pleased with how this thing is developing.

The idea is that Frank Jackson, Ted Strickland, and the director of the Rock Hall should be emailing this author and publication. I have considerably less responsiblity than they do for maintaining Ohio's image. That's my Idea for the Rock Hall... stick up for it, if you're paid six figures to be in charge of it.

Thanks for the advice. The person who posted this saw it as an attack and I do too. The NY-based author didn't have to say "unfortunately." Do non-Orlando papers say it's "unforunate" that Disney is in Orlando? No, they talk about how nice it is to get out of town and visit Orlando. The very existence of this Annex is an insult to Cleveland. Characterizing a visit as "unfortunate" is a rather aggressive way to discuss anyone else's community. How often do we see any other US tourist destination referred to in this way?

Agreed with Jay Williams, it would be goofy to have this thing bypass Warren and Youngstown. I think a lot of passengers would use it just to travel between those two cities, since there's virtually no bus service. Many people in the Mahoning Valley are "car free" for reasons other than reducing their carbon footprint.

There's more to the story I'm not sharing (no DanB, I didn't spit in the cop's face) but yes I paid the $700. More precisely, I eventually paid it back to my mom. The whole experience was surreal. I hope the example of New Rome will teach these other towns you can't bully people in Ohio. I also hope the court system is looking out for this sort of thing and plans to dissolve more of these robber fiefdoms.

I was mildly disappointed. The music was a step back from before... it was all modern rock and bar-band material, when in past years they had more edgy stuff. It seems like they wanted to take the show more mainstream and believed funky jazz acts were scaring people away. That's speculation... don't know the back story. And like goteenb, I was only there for a few hours. But they had 4 stages so I saw several acts over that time... and most of them fell into this descrption. I'm not saying any of the music was bad, it wasn't, just that it was a little conventional given the festival's theme. I really like the way they use the alleys and random spaces. The setting is the best part about this event. I also enjoyed the * art show, which was extensive. Compared to past years I saw less technology and even less that was interactive. Ingenuity seems to be backing away from its original premise a bit. I was actually hoping to see more robot costumes this time, and maybe their lack was my biggest disappointment. There were some robots, and some tech displays, but I was hoping for something more immersive. They appear to be moving it in a more generic direction instead. Maybe they feel this will increase attendance long-term, and maybe they're right. Hard to say. One other thing... there was a guy in the Hanna theater doing an hour-long solo show about being gay. A warning, that none of his stories or humor would deviate from this premise, would have been helpful. Seemed like a nice funny guy who could put together a great show. But Ingenuity alienated some guests by letting them walk into that unawares. I'm no homophobe but I, and others, found it needlessly awkward... plus his Bush/Cheney/Iraq jokes were somewhat less than timely.

Tinted windows, that's what happened to me. $700 fine for tinted windows even though my windows had no tint.

They ran my plate without cause. I'm not sure that's illegal though. In a law enforcement context, your driving record is not private. I think it's a waste of taxpayer money to have cops scan plates but I think they're technically allowed to.

Get upset becaue they attacked our community, that's why. Good to know that the NY Annex sucks. That still doesn't give anyone carte blanche to insult us.

This morning on the red line (car 310), the operator clearly announced each stop and alerted riders to the locations of emergency instructions. It was a profound improvement over the recording. I hope this is the new way. Best part-- when we got stopped outside Tower City, she announced to everyone "We've got a red light. Hopefully we'll be moving again soon." Did this explain much? No. But it made everyone on the train feel better, because RTA was acknowledging the oddity of having to sit trapped on a train just before your destination. This acknowledgement helps a great deal. She also apologized for it, and that helps too. All in all a much improved experience. Good job RTA.

I think the implication is that all these planning stages require initial work on this end, the local end, and that work isn't always getting done in a vigorous and timely fashion. Look what happened with CSU and the state tech lab opportunity they squandered. I'm sure the federal requirements are the same for us and everyone else... but if that's the case, how come we're barely getting the innerbelt redone when other communities are getting rail expansions? Whatever the excuse, we're not getting a fair share and we haven't been for years. Either that's discrimination from DC or its a failure of local leadership. Either way, it's not OK. Here comes this giant stimulus package and we have no rail expansions ready to go, not even that rather obvious one that would run east from our present and future Lakefront Developments. We have no plan for a new Amtrak station on the lakefront despite the MM/CC and despite the 3-C momentum. That is inexcusable, absolutely inexcusable. The time for patience with local leadership has passed.

You mean there WAS New Rome, Ohio. It was forcibly dissolved by Franklin County for being so aggressive. It reverted to township land and its records are held by the county... including the one where they handcuffed me to a church pew in the trailer they were using for a courthouse. For a traffic violation.

I disagree about the psychology behind speeding. I think most people are rational enough to realize that flow is safer than slow. I also think most drivers, car or truck, understand the way their vehicle handles at different speeds. They will naturally go the highest speed that is safe, accounting for the speed of others around them. Why do they aim for the highest safe speed? It is rational to get where you're going. That's the only reason you're on the freeway to begin with. The situation is inherently unsafe. And the longer you're there, the more that could go awry. And when commerce is involved, it goes against the realities of capitalism to move freight slower than you could. Rail shipping is too rigid to be useful in modern industry the way it once was. We need a new way to power trucks but we definitely need trucks. Public safety suffers when an entire state police force is confined to enforcing irrational "highway safety" laws instead of protecting that state's multiple distressed population centers. This is not how it is everywhere, and it's part of Ohio's unhealthy fixation on highways. Also important here is that our government should not be hiding the ball as to what's a revenue stream and what isn't, or as to what's crime and what isn't.

I don't doubt they have good ideas at RTA, it's a question of which ideas you go with. Some of this stuff is revenue-neutral, like the beeping and the horns. It cost money to set that up, and it'll cost money to shut it off at some point, though not much in the grand scheme of things. The recordings were apparently a waste of money, as were several features of an item that has its own thread. The POP system has pros and cons but can't really be judged yet. The number of times that individuals here have seen rides not get counted is troubling. I'm just summarizing the last few pages of the thread, leaving out the parts about expanding service, which obviously would cost money. The rest of it involves losing or wasting money, and taking steps to alienate the public for reasons that, to some people, don't seem to add up. So it's hard to accept finances as an answer to everything that's wrong. Nobody here dislikes RTA. There's just some concern about the direction it's being taken. Everyone has faith it'll turn around.