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If I had the money, I can think of several transit-accessible sites along existing lines that I'd like to turn into TOD before I ever thought about Randall. Randall is a mess. With our region's shrinking population and surplus of housing units, the best thing for Randall would be to nuke it, let it revert to nature and forget it ever happened (like the Richfield Coliseum). Agreed. It's just such a low priority for what we need to do to make Cleveland a better place, imo. Maybe that one, but I don't think the same is true of an eastward red line or waterfront extension, or a west shore line. I think any of those would have a big impact. Seems like there's less to be gained from extending the blue or green lines right now.

^ They're progressing with the adjacent CSU garage, but I haven't seen anything done with the transit center yet. I assume they'll start as soon as the garage is finished.

^ Agreed, the proof of payment system seems to make work for itself. There has to be a better use of RTA cops' time.

I rarely support inconveniencing the automobile, but this situation is different. I think a total roundabout could work here. I have reservations but it could work. And the gain in terms of filling in that "plus sign" would be big ones. We'll probably need to finish at least one, if not both, of the new downtown transit centers before this can happen. Upon reflection, I'm not that concerned about distupting traffic through the square because half of that traffic is buses, which don't have to go there, and Public Square doesn't see much in the way of motor freight. That last one is serious, because it's more than an inconvenience for business when deliveries get held up.

Wow, that is a good deal. I've noticed rents coming down in other areas of the city recently, so it's not surprising the same thing is happening downtown.

Very insightful. I think this is the gist of the problem.

Some of the lines, I'm thinking of the east side, run next to junkyards and dumps. I'm not sure how clean they're ever really going to be.

No, it's not a bad area at all. It's right there in the Warehouse District, and right by where the new Flats is going to be built. This is a very happening neighborhood. I don't know anything about how National Terminal is run or how it looks inside.

Ah, the joys of convincing girlfriends to take public transit.

I could get behind unifying the square, it probably does need something like that... but as you say it could really mess up traffic. The city is designed to focus traffic there. They would need to run some simulations and see how bad E9th and W6th/Prospect get backed up. Also of concern would be that awful E13th/Euclid/E14th jog. I guess I would hesitate to close Ontario, due to the lack of N-S alternatives downtown. Superior could wrap around the square easily enough. Maybe we could just have an east half and a west half, instead of quadrants. Then maybe there could be an ornate pedestrian bridge or two linking them.

I like what they're doing here. A lot of locals don't know about this area, yet it's probably the best-kept and most complete neighborhood in town. I hope the rest of the city's commercial strips will get similar upgrades.

Agreed with the last couple posts, RTA has policy problems which are independent of demographics. To blame demographics is to refuse all management responsibility. Riders have been driven away by a series of poor decisions.

Not trying to fight, but do you do your biochemical research in a residential building? And that part about "as long as food for sale isn't..." comes into play more than you'd think. A lot more than you'd think. In fact, you don't even want to think about it. All I'm saying is that these two goals we have, for the exact same place, aren't 100% compatible. I'm not claiming they're 100% in-compatible, I'm claiming there's enough of an issue there that... given the context... we should reconsider these plans.

East River Science Park or Fifth Avenue Science Park? They made a choice and they made it for a reason. The Johns Hopkins plan, based on their aerial rendering and description, is intended primarily as a job site. If you look at where they're placing it, it's off to the side of the university in Baltimore's downtown-university duality... it's not directly between them! That's where main street goes! Baltimore's is also promoted as a modern industrial park with one incidental bullet point about residential and services. It isn't clear how or if that aspect will work out, or whether they've put much thought into it at all. We haven't, so I'm not sure they have either. Is either city expecting a project like that to remake its main thoroghfare into an active pedestrian zone? I don't think they are, but I haven't been following their news. A lot of these issues I'm raising are context-dependent. Is this plan better than a stick in the eye? Yes it is. Is it better than losing 500 jobs to Morocco? Indeed. But those are insane benchmarks to use, when we just spent a billion dollars rebuilding Euclid Avenue specifically for pedestrians, and these developments could go anywhere in Cleveland besides that street.

Sorry, I can't resist...with my best Joe Pesci impersonation: So you thought I was funny when I rode the #6 to go to school/downtown? Funny, like how, like a clown?!?! :shoot: :-) I did that too, but I'm a freak who lived, worked, and went to school on Euclid Avenue and who loves transit. I don't think for a minute that a hospital full of suburban workers is going to mimic my habits or yours. What I meant by the quoted statement is that the BRT only serves to link attractions that are located on or near Euclid Avenue. Unless you live on Euclid (ding ding ding let's build residential) it plays no part in getting you home from work. If it gives you a 2-seat 2-hour trip to Strongsville... so what? It's not a commuter line and nobody's going to use it for that... unless both ends of the "commute" somehow involve Euclid Avenue.

Sure, you can do biomedical research in our new technology center, as long as it's not this or this or this or this or this or this because there's a restaraunt downstairs from your lab. I know biomed isn't all Resident Evil, which was a poor metaphor on my part, but I used to be in the business of cleaning up after this stuff and you don't want it above a restaraunt even if it's a million miles from Resident Evil. Manufacturing, even of innocuous little devices, involves all kinds of hazardous chemicals. Maybe 350 days out of the year they don't need the special solvent, but sometimes they do. So if they can't ever use their special solvent, they're not going to locate here. If we're going to go after biomed, let's do it. This isn't the way to do it. High end research likes to be off on its own... it's the one instance where suburban style segregated land use really makes sense. There are also some intellectual property issues bearing on this which I don't want to get into, but trust me not much of this biomed stuff is going on top of a restaraunt. It just isn't a nutritious part of your mixed-use breakfast. The entire plan we're discussing, if that's the plan, is bunk. Are they attempting to plan "biomedical cluster" with residents scattered throughout, and not have a single hazmat consultant at the table? I don't think that's wise, and I don't think the end result will have many takers on the commercial or residential ends.

Then what was the purpose of all those BRT stops, and what was the purpose of all that talk about bringing people to Euclid Avenue? How many families have to be torn apart by mental illness so that people are brought to Euclid Avenue? You renovate your main street for a billion dollars for the purpose of building things there which no one would ever want to visit or live by? Regarding geography, I don't know where you're getting your info. It certainly isn't from having lived there. If you're at Euclid and 55th and you can't walk to something on Payne Avenue, which is 3 avenues up, you need a Jazzy Power Chair right now. The thrift store is directly adjacent to this intersection and Galluci's is about a 10 minute walk. And when we're counting blocks E-W, remember that there's only about a block and half between 55th and 40th here. Seriously, the only problem holding this area back is the fact everyone in town hates it. So now it's a dumping ground for "jobs" that nobody wants near their home, even though we just spent all that money to give it a chance as a functional urban main street.

When I think of "mixed use development" being right next to "bio-medical uses" I think of Resident Evil. Not the first one, I mean the one where they did all that in the middle of a freaking city. If our concept is matching residential with bio-tech, our concept is bunk. These are two things that actually need to be segregated. And the idea that these workers will ride a bus that only goes down Euclid is laughable. So funny I could cry. Again, there is all kinds of private land near the Cleveland Clinic and it's never developed in the way we're being told the area around this hospital will develop. Neither has W 25th north of Bridge. This is being done for the Mayor's short term political gain and that's all there is to it. Replace "hospital" with "slaughterhouse" or "paper factory" employing 500 and see if jobs are ever, ever, ever the only thing a responsible planner must consider.

a) 24-hour service b) Consistency... too many of those routes go different places each time. As in "what do you mean THIS ONE doesn't go downtown?" c) Theoretically, the express signal timing. I've mentioned before that if it ain't working by now, we're all due a hellacious refund. You can't just sell a fake product to 1.3 million people. It has to work or you just defrauded the government and you go to jail. Where this process broke down here I couldn't tell you, but the optimist in me still believes that if we payed for a signal system (which we did) we still have one coming.

^ BizBiz please read the long version Midtown Inc plan before citing it. The long version zones this area very differently than the short one does. I think even the short one, if you actually look at the map, shows an industrial park spanning both sides of Euclid at that point. The short one with the MMU- whatevers is downright misleading. The plan is for Euclid to be a business park from I-90 to E79th St. I guess there's not much you can walk to around there, other than Dave's, half the Asiatown stores and restaraunts, a thrift store, a diner on Prospect, a recently opened restaurant at 36th, and indeed Gust Galluci's. I lived there for about a year, so I know what it has and what it doesn't have. The anti-Midtown attitudes I'm hearing from a lot of folks here are cynical and misinformed. There is a solid neighborhood framework in this area-- moreso than there is from 71st to 79th. If the BRT to be leveraged into anything urban, this is the spot. It has anchors, in particular the Agora, and it has enough empty or easily-cleared land nearby to build something with critical mass. The area from 55th westward, other than the county's parking lot for which there's no replacement, is full. It's full. I'd like to see new residential there but it's full. If you don't believe me, please tell me which new structures you think they'll let us knock down to build a neighborhood. They won't. Maybe everything from 30th to the innerbelt will come down for residential, but I don't see that happening either. So where are all these contiguous developable sections of Euclid I keep hearing about? I only see one, around 55th. I triple dog dare you to list 50 comparable parcels. Every theory I hear about Euclid being wrong for residential really makes me wonder why the BRT was ever built, with a stop on every block. That simply isn't done anywhere on earth to serve an industrial park. And if you don't think people have issues living next to a psych ward, I guess you haven't read any of the court cases about that exact issue. For a lot of people it's a dealbreaker. If that's not the case for you, that's very noble. But from a development perspective this thing will NOT draw residents, in fact it will be kryptonite. I would absolutely prefer this be built near the new juvie center. That would be 7-8 times smarter than tying up Euclid Ave with another inert box of gloom. Those people visiting their relative at the psych ward-- are they happy about it? Is this the impression we want people to have about Euclid Avenue, oh no what's to become of my sister? Isn't there anywhere else that kind of tragedy could play out? Anywhere else? You don't see any negative associations there at all? Moreover, the fact that the typical Euclid Ave resident or pedestrian would never enter this facility is PRECISELY why it doesn't belong on Euclid. I don't know how I could make that any plainer at this point.

Polensek is going to "draw people back" with a carousel? I love how someone in the article said there's a clock ticking on the carousel's relevance. Umm... that clock stopped ticking a while ago. This isn't like League Park, because people still play baseball. This is pretty much obsolete and its value is historical. I'm not saying a restored vintage 1909 carousel isn't impressive, or important to our heritage, I'm just saying there's a point being missed as to what our problem is. The article brings up those strip plazas on Lakeshore... Mr. Polensek, are we assuming those will become a better planning decision once they're accompanied by a carousel? We've tried fancy attractions before and they haven't worked. Einstein once made a point about repetition. I too would like to see this carousel supported with enough similar attractions that it can be successful as part of a unique destination. I would keep it as faaaaaaaaaaaaar from the RRHOF as possible, since there is a bit of a clash in their respective tones. It would probably go best in a historic district that already has a bit of a family theme. It might work especially well at the zoo or nearby.

Failing to advocate for transit is but one of Jackson's problems, and the others are bigger so I'll let this one slide. The blue line is already well outside of Cleveland at that point. This is a county issue, a regional issue, an issue of multiple redundant municipalities. I think it's funny for us to consider Cleveland anti-rail when we have an enviable system for our size, while Cincinnati thinks one little rail line will bankrupt every taxpayer and block out the sun with its filth. People in Cleveland are at least used to the idea of rail transit. The Blue Line should go to Randall Park and maybe Solon, while the Green Line should extend to Richmond Rd then shoot north up Richmond to Cedar, turning Legacy Village into retroactive TOD. I also like StrapHanger's idea (from another thread) of running BRT up Cedar Rd from University Circle. That would be extremely cost-effective and useful.

^ Good point, Gee was in charge then just as now... and he's currently advocating a lower drinking age. It does seem like the OSU experience with this has been especially harsh, no? OSU leveled what may have been the busiest college bar district in the country. They did it quickly and aggressively, with overt plans to replace the bars with shopping-mall amenities that no student was asking for. The 21 drinking age had been around for decades by the mid-90s. What changed was Campus Partners coming on the scene. I can't really speak for other colleges. Toledo never had much of a bar scene, but it too has shrunk since the 90s. It seems like colleges around Cleveland would like to see more student hangouts develop, not less.

The darker thing about Campus Partners is their puritanical social engineering. They didn't just want the bars gone because they had different ideas for the land, they wanted the bars gone because bars are wrong. Kids in college shouldn't be drinking. They should be going to fellowship meetings with their pastor. Or, apparently, they should be spending student loan money on Wexner's merchandise. If they're going to buy a beer, they should buy it from Eddie George and pay twice as much... from their student loans. None of this was done for the benefit of the students. It was done to make the rich richer at students' expense. When all that gets wrapped up in a faux-religious message, I tend to vomit.

Ah yes that's more like it. If I could take a train to Columbus for under $20 I'd be doing it frequently.