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What formula are you guys using? Square footage of the store = its market radius? Can you supply any other instance where any shopping center's market was estimated with rules like this? Doesn't your system require a Beachwood Place every 5 miles or so in affluent areas? Heaven forbid someone would shop somewhere they can't see from their front door. The population of downtown, and its immediate vicinity, are simply not at issue here. Nor is the population of Beachwood--by itself-- all that important to Beachwood Place. The market for any major retail operation covers a much larger area. People aren't expected to ride there on a Big Wheel. Downtown's market includes Lakewood and Shaker by any rational estimate, i.e. the sort of estimate used for any shopping center not located in downtown Cleveland.

Very good point, especially after the MM/CC debacle. "What train tracks? Oh the ones right there. Oops. We'll put up some bushes to hide them."

You're quite right, for the most part, but things like rent and parking are vastly different between CH and Lakewood. And it takes about 1/2 hour to drive between the two, so they offer access to different things. And while the architecture is similar, the layouts are like yin and yang. I love the variety.

I'm a fan of the Mermaid too, and this doesn't change my opinion of it. Two separate things. It's just that at some point we do need to get going on "Warehouse District Developments" because otherwise this thread just chronicles the constant changing of the awnings. Considering the area's trajectory 10 years ago, it's downright odd that so little has been built. But if the neighborhood's movers and shakers oppose having anything built, the current outcome is a lot more understandable. The question then shifts to their reasoning.

columbus4life, I agree with you on abortion. But there is no way I would vote for Mandel. His entire worldview is at odds with mine.

It's more than unfortunate, it's destructive. The forces of anti-density cannot be allowed to rule this city any longer. This man has every right to believe whatever he wants. He has no right, however, to impede the city's future for his own personal gains. That's the gist of our problems here, all of them. Whatever happens, City Hall needs to be on the right side of it. To me that means actively seeking development of these lots. Any administration that fails to understand the urgency of the situation should be yanked out of the building with a sheep hook.

We've known about this sentiment for a while, and I can't help but think it's a major reason why nothing has happened there. Interested parties actively do not want anything to happen. As with everything else, the first step is to want it. We aren't really there yet.

FCE lists 9 core markets on their website and Cleveland is not among them, even though they developed (and are based in) Cleveland's core marketplace. DDR feels that downtown is not even a good HQ site if Beachwood is available. Frankly I don't think theirs are the opinions we should be running with.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=183138 According to this list, Cleveland's downtown population ranks 12th in the US. Selected highlights: 2. Chicago- 42,563 11. Milwaukee- 8915 12. Cleveland- 8433 16. Houston- 6678 17. Atlanta- 6418 24. Pittsburgh- 5422 31. Columbus- 4374 32. Cincinnati- 4303 36. Indy- 3481 37. St. Louis- 3392 40. Boise- 3093 42. Toledo- 2735 56. Tampa- 709 So I grant that we've seen some overstated estimates, but on a comparative basis we're still doing rather well. Thus I do not believe lack of downtown population is a legitimate excuse for the vacancies. As with anything, of course there could be more. Much more. And there will be. But we should not allow our strengths to be counted as weaknesses. And besides, there appears to be minimal correlation between downtown retail and downtown population. Compare this list to the one in UO's department store thread. FCE reminds me of the Dolans, always trying to big-time us despite the fact that everyone can see successful operations taking place in similarly sized markets.

Re post 203, I would direct you to 209. The league I referred to is larger than Ohio and yes somewhat nebulous. But I'm trying to ascertain how disputable it is that Cleveland has a relatively high downtown population, since FCE apparently finds it so inadequate. Expanding our consideration beyond downtown adds a lot of medium-to-affluent people with a direct rail link to the shopping center in question, which is a somewhat unique advantage for TC and for downtown Cleveland. Bearing all this in mind, I feel compelled to reiterate that the rent's too damn high.

Is it your thesis that Cleveland's downtown population is low, vs comparable cities? Most believe otherwise and consider it a major success story. And most major cities have jails downtown. And I've been to Toledo, recently. I guess I'm just not following you.

The loose pants is (or was originally) meant to show solidarity with friends or family in prison.

Groups like this existed in the 90s but didn't have universally accepted names. My hippie roomates called bros "hat boys" since they usually wore a Cocks hat. The people my roomates liked were all hipsters, but no word yet existed for them. To me they were just people-who-all-shopped-at-the-same-store.

Yes. Until our transit situation radically changes, parking will be an important part of everything.

Look beyond yourself. At what point in the day is an apartment building locked up and dark? Never. But most offices go through entire days like this, two in a row, each and every week.

There are entire threads for that. Point is, Cleveland leads the league in downtown population. They're calling a key strength a deficiency and it's ludicrous. The rent is too damn high.

Offices are inert the majority of the time. Residential is 24/7.

Not clear what SimCity has to do with anything. As for downtown population, cities with far less of that are able to do much more. As for the casino serving as an anchor, it's still worth consideration, but there may not be that much overlap between casino traffic and shopping traffic. Until TC can offer a competitive shopping experience, it probably can't expect to compete as a shopping center.

Even as a minor draw it would still be light years ahead of the current nothingness on Saturday afternoons. And football may not be anyone's #1 reason for going to Kent or Akron, but that's not the only way for a program to have value. It could still be a strong positive factor for a lot of people. Akron just built a new staduim and hired a "name" coach for a team that's been an absolute joke for years. If football didn't work for mid-major programs, there wouldn't be so much of it out there.

Thanks. I guess nothing said there is untrue, but I'm aghast that they're only just now addressing the rail situation... and their first thought is to address it with shrubbery. NCTC should have been integral to the MM/CC project in the first place. But getting it done thru the port authority would make me very happy.

What comments?

I wanna choose the person who did that site plan. Doesn't matter what architect we hire, if they'll be told to ignore obvious urban design principles.

http://blog.cleveland.com/metro/2012/01/cleveland_state_university_to_5.html One hundred thousand dollars.

Never heard about this, such awesome news. I really hope it gets built.

It does look cool... but it's purely cosmetic, and tuition seems awfully high for that sort of spending right now.