RestorationConsultant

Some of those GE people will probably living in OTR, lol. IMHO Kroger stays put in OTR, renovates, or opens a new store there. I don't know, The GE jobs pay an average of 70K . 3CDC is building at 300 a sq foot. If you are still paying student loans it would be hard to afford a one bedroom 300K condo. I bet 80 percent of their workforce commutes in. In fact it would be a fascinating urban planning study to follow their workforce to see how far the average GE employee commutes. Plus if its a 2 income family and they have kids, I don't see OTR as an option, the housing variety isn't there. 70K a year wont get you in Mt Adams. I bet it helps Covington and Newport which has more affordable options and it may even help Incline district on the Ohio side, but I don't think its will 'help' OTR. OTR needs more apartments

As far as indy goes here is list of projects http://www.indydt.com/projects.cfm 51 projects 2.6 Billion dollars of those are 21 are residential projects 518 million dollars through 2017 I wouldn't call the areas around the downtown 'poor' The Old Northside and Herron Morton have million dollar houses , ad Fall creek place has starter homes in the 250K range. North of the freeway . To the east is Holy Cross where a starter home is 200K and they are building a whole development called Highland place of 500K+ homes, Most restored homes are going between 250-500K. To the South you have Fountain square which has several new luxury low rise condos along Virginia and Fletcher place has homes ranging from 200-600K, The only area slow to turn around would be west but most of the land is zoo and industrial. The "apartments" east of the campus are luxury apartments ranging from 1200-2500 and the condos start at 400K and go up to 600K., Students still commute in to IUPUI because they cant afford to live anywhere near downtown. Indys downtown is heavily new urbanist looking and the density is getting too high to suit me, which is why I left , plus there was nothing affordable left to restore.

I have a problem with form based codes. HUD has been pushing these as way to insert low income housing in areas that would fight them using zoning laws. There is a lot of public info reading on HUDs plans. Having spent the last 5 years getting rid of low income housing and the problems associated with it, I do not want to do that again. Interesting read from HUD and I encourage anyone interested in preserving their neighborhood to do some indepth research: http://portal.hud.gov/hudportal/documents/huddoc?id=sidebysideNOFA.pdf As far as deed restrictions go we put them on our Save not Raze, preservation properties. We take endangered property usually that had been converted illegally to multi family and stabilize it. The house is then resold with a protective deed covenant that requires it remain single family and that the exterior must be maintained to preservation standards. It also governs additions and prohibits teardown except due to catastrophic act. Does it limit our buyers and take longer to sell? Absolutely, but we get responsible buyers who must demonstrate financial responsibility to execute the restoration plan they submit with their offer. It does stop the revolving door slumlords and investor/flipper from getting their hands on it. This is not a new Idea but is based on the highly successful Indiana landmarks program and is similar to a program used by the city of Milwaukee: http://city.milwaukee.gov/HistoricHouses I have been pushing this approach to blight abatement for some time with city leaders but the demo contractor lobby is pretty strong around here

Quimbob, I think Price Hill is doing a great job, they know its not happening overnight but I would say if they keep on the track they are on, they may have turned the corner. Sherman, I agree with you I'm personally not a fan of new urbanist architecture, but when it comes to infill, assuming its strategically placed and not wildly painted, it serves a market place and more importantly make the existing housing stock more viable to restore. That's why we have put a covenant on the deeds on vacant lots,that new construction must be reviewed by the neighborhood association. Its the best way I know to control what things look like and that's important when you are turning neighborhood around. We are trying to avoid the teardown mentality when lots get more valuable.

Well I used the more conservative number. If you use the standard 1 mile from center of downtown number (walking distance ) that urban planner use like to use, Indy downtown is at 45,179. Of course Indy is very walkable compared to Cincinnati because there are no hills. the biggest problem is calculating population because it is changing daily as more multi story condo complexes and apartment come on line. The more telling is the average household income downtown is over 70K. Most of the old storefront buildings in downtown are luxury condos but they are much larger units. Then you have the Conrad hotel with its 2-5 million dollar condos on the upper floors. My own experience with Indy is that it has long ago lost its downtown grittiness and has been taken over by wealthy suburbanites. Probably the same thing that will happen to Cincinnati downtown in 10 years or so. One of the reasons I decided on Cincinnati was it was not there yet.

I recently visited the new marsh store in downtown Indy, its 43000 sq foot and acts as the anchor tenant in an 85 million dollar apartment building. They have parking but they also have bike share out front. This was smart marketing on their part because they get a lot of commuting office workers who stop in on their way home, park and buy groceries, but the bike share makes it convenient for those living downtown too. The other downtown grocery owned by them is in an old repurposed art deco Sears building. I would hope that Kroger does something similar because you need something accessible to downtown workers who would stop by before they head home to do some quick shopping. I think the thing Indy realized (and they have ,30,000 people living downtown) is that you need to be accessible enough to get that downtown office worker trade. I know when I lived in Indy I'd walk from my office which was two blocks away over to the grocery to grab a salad from the salad bar or a sandwich from the full service deli. Kroger is going to need to be dependent on commute downtown workers until the downtown and OTR gets repopulated if its going to be self sustaining.

JM, If you think Mt Adams has been ‘completely gentrified since the mid 1980’s you must be thinking the same thing about OTR already. Are you suggesting ether is some "conspiracy" by Price Hill Will, Covedale, Riverside, Knox Hill, Sedamsville and Westwood to 'coerce' people into moving there? Are there black helicopters flying around your head as we speak? I know facts are hard thing for some people to digest so Price Hill Will must be “strong=arming” people to buy all the homes they are redoing at 120-140K? They sell them as fast as they redo them. BTW, there is a condo at 542 Davenport in Incline that 'gasp' is on the market at 450K. Or how about the one for sale at 369 Grand for 549K? You better get those realtors committed. And some ‘fool’ bought a place at 408 Grand for 450K! You better get the bank investigated who made that loan. Hmmm doesn't sound like "complete deterioration" to me"? Sounds like things are getting better. That is not to say there aren't economically depressed areas in Price Hill, but don't insult those trying to make it better. Must be a lot of “stupid people” in OTR too because several of them are restoring in my 'junk' neighborhood. JM, did you know Cathy Frank, the realtor, bought the house across the street from me and is restoring it? I’d love to see you tell her she is “stupid” to her face, that would be very entertaining to watch, particulary watching you climb up off the floor. And then there is that “crazy guy” who bought the Lunken 2 building and is doing artist and photography lofts in part of it...imagine the insanity! Sedamsville made application for national historic district status (what are those people smoking over there) Westwood is routinely selling a fair amount of homes in the 150-300K range, I think that’s respectable for a neighborhood that had the bulk of OTR low income stuffed into apartments in their community after the riots in OTR when the city had to get the bad element out of sight, out of mind. Riverside is developing a comprehensive rail/bike plan... I hear someone is thinking about starting a winery up there. Crazyness everywhere in the 'junk neighborhoods of the West side! Good to know JM that you are 'watching out' for all of us not worshiping at the gods of the streetcar and OTR. Apparently, the problem with moving historic preservation forward in this city and having thoughtful, intelligent conversations about how to do it, is well…the apparent lack of intelligent people to have a conversation with. But that's OK, JM we can "muddle along" just fine on the west side without all your "expertise".

In 2004 1st QTR according to trulia and based on sold prices, the median sales price was 200K there was a runup to 500k within that year and it bottomed out in early 2005 below 200K, That is median meaning some houses sold for lot more some for a lot less. Better than the median sale price city wide which has been at 103-120k since 2001 ! Bear in mind that the total sales per month in Mt Adams is less than 10 homes monthly historically Average prices in Mt Adams now are 1/2 what they were in 2007 at the height of the real estate bubble when the average SOLD was 750K To say there still were not some sketchy areas in Mt Adams in 2004 ignores the fact there were still homes on the city VBML/condemn list back then. Mt Adams biggest problem right now is the high taxes now that the abatements are running out is hurting sales and may well trigger some foreclosure activity. I am not suggesting that Mt Adams was comparable to Price Hill 10 years ago, what I am saying is it did not look like it looks today. Certainly Price Hill is improving from where it was in 2004 also when the city dumped the poor out of OTR and sent them that way.

I've been talking with a company that built these. They are modular and it sells for 250-350K depending on finishes. It a very cost effective way to do infill.

Sherman I agree they were NOT high end but its an improvement over nothing. You know neighborhood turnaround is about 'baby steps'. I am reminded about when I lived up in Indy the local high school built some homes in my neighborhood similar to those years ago. Last week one sold for 249K , the last time it sold for 140K and the guys that bought it did a makeover, higher end floors, IKEA cabinets, lighting upgrades etc. Its still a 1600 sq foot house on a crawl space but it has come along way from when it first sold for 90K. But same situation; they were stagnant price wise for years, but, when you now have new homes selling for 550K and restored homes from 400-600 even a vinyl sided high school built home goes up too. So in the overall context , those homes may be an eventual win as the neighborhood gets better. Someone will come in, buying cheap price, rip off the roofline , add top floor master suites with walk out rooftops. You just have to think bigger picture.

You know when people bought in Mt Adams 10 years ago we were not talking about the prices today. Oh and its not a "few grand" we are talking about your taxes going from 400 a year to 8-9000.00. Also 10 years ago Mt Adams still had rough spots and a lot of criminal element passing through, prices were a lot less. So now they can pocket 5-600K go to another neighborhood buy a house for next to nothing, restore it and come out like a bandit again. That's who are coming to my neighborhood and Price Hill, people who can see beyond what's there now and realize what will be there in a few years. While people are standing in line to buy overpriced condos in OTR those people will be laughing all the way to the bank. As far as 'walk to' something? When you have money you can afford a car and you are only 5 minutes to downtown, but with the new restaurants and stuff coming to incline its not even going to take that long. As you get older you don't care so much about walking to a bar and staggering home, you are more interested in having a nice dinner. I have zero interest in living in neighborhood where I have to deal with constant traffic, prostitution,and noisy drunk people. A lot of preservation oriented people settle in a neighborhood, it gets expensive, they sell and move on to the next thing. BTW people laugh at them until that neighborhood is turned around too and they make a bunch of money again. They are moving to those "sketchy" hillsides , just like they did when Mt Adams was "sketchy".

He owns most of the restorations around there, including the ones across the street. Sherman, 150K on State is pretty significant when the new homes down the road sold in the 80K range. I would guess its about establishing comps, and he is starting some more restores. You have to remember Sherman, things have been selling for 20-30K tops just a few years ago. Also you can keep your restore costs down when you don't hire everything out. This is not the nicest house down their either (there is that towered one). I would argue that "location" is in the eye of the beholder. You are 5 minutes to downtown on a hill, nice view. That appeals to a lot of people. I mean now that the tax abatements are running out in Mt Adams and these people are getting socked with high taxes they are selling and coming over ,to price hill, my neighborhood, and anywhere with a view. I think the run-up in prices is going to surprise people , just like it did in Columbia Tusculum, Mt Adams and OTR.

The guy from New York wants to move in it, not an investor. That is my point, the only people that are moving here and restoring seem to be from out of state. You know there is a new show on about townhouse restoration in Price Hill called Rowhouse showdown? I love Cincinnati, I just wish that the people who have lived here all their life did. Almost all the homes I have featured in Preservation bargains series on my own blog have been bought by people from out of town who have moved to this city. Most of the people who are moving into my neighborhood are from out of state. Who is gone? The investor types, slumlords and drug dealers. I don't know why you can't use city government to make them enforce their own laws but we seem to be able to do it. The city is now contacting us about taking properties from slumlords wanting to surrender them because they cant deal with code enforcement. We have eliminated over 40 section 8 units from our neighborhood and those are on their way back to single family. Quimbob if you drove up State Ave ( and slowed down) you might notice the several new homes were built on State a couple of years ago (not high end but a sign of improvements) or the other restorations around this house. Did you know there is the Incline District? Did you know Westwood just had a major real estate open house weekend? or that Price Hill Will is selling 140K houses now? I just put a guy looking for a house to restore on the Westside (moving from out of town) in touch with a certain well-known OTR realtor who also just happens to also be restoring a house in my neighborhood. And I am not neighborhood specific, quimbob I'm working on writing a restoration plan for a client in Walnut Hills right now.

Here is the real problem and I explained this on my blog a few days ago. Historic preservation is nota one time thing. Both these buildings need continual maintenance. These are 'quick political fixes' because the city is embarrassed about having not on but two landmarks on the national most endangered list. Rather than conduct a long term look and come up with long term fix this really is just a bandaid. We need to look at the current use of these buildings, are there additional uses in addition to the current. For example could a boutiques hotel operate at music hall. Or perhaps what we need to look at is all that land in front of the museum center. Maybe the solution there is to develop it with say a convention center/hotel and residential and connect that to museum center. Put an underground parking garage under the new construction. Our current convention center is joke and you could move museum center into that while you make renovations. Naming rights: P&G music hall anyone? Other cities do this. The point is that the things that operate out of here are not profitable and we need to figure out how to change that. Historic preservation is a continuous process. By the time you fix one thing something else need attention. The tax will never go away, it will be 'Oh now we need to fix this or that." The venues must be made 'viable' and now they are not. Old buildings are never 'restored' they are just at a temporary state of not needing something. As anyone who owns an old house.

Hmm interesting since they had a lot of showings since the article came out and I understand someone is flying in from New York State to look at it. I just sold a lot to a developer last week getting ready to built a 250K house on it in my 'doomed' neighborhood, and the guy who bought the house down the street from me has a 180K restoration budget.

I don't suppose its dawned on people that if Kroger puts a new store downtown they wont keep the one open in OTR? The numbers just are not there to support two stores. I would imagine they will put it where they think the most monied people, will use it (banks perhaps) to appease GE. Indianapolis just got a second Marsh store downtown but then Indy has 25-30K downtown and an average household income in the downtown of over 70K, a second store made sense there plus its near the IUPUI campus which has a huge commuter population, and Indy convention center is almost always booked which means an extra 20-30K down town. I have a feeling there is going to be some very disappointed people in OTR if they close that store.

Some more positive news for historic preservation on the Westside. This fine restoration at 1605 State was recently featured on the nationally known old house website, "Old House Dreams". It is the FIFTH Westside property to be written up by the OHD website in the last few months. Apparently in the world of preservation, the world does not "revolve" around OTR like it does locally, which is, to most preservationists, more like a Disneyland stage set; Old on the outside and "Urbanist Loft' on the inside I am always amazed at the comments from out of state preservationists who are totally mystified that we focus all our efforts on few neighborhoods when we have such fine resources. I'll just about bet it gets bought by an out of state preservationist who recognizes this home for the bargain it is. http://www.oldhousedreams.com/2014/07/18/1875-second-empire-cincinnati-oh/#comment-45460 The bigger discussion is how do we move other neighborhoods forward and must we rely on out of state people to do all the heavy lifting? Clearly to be competitive at attracting businesses and their employees we must have more housing diversity and neighborhoods to choose from than just one. I am mystified the city government hasn't figured this out yet.

Natininja: most of my clients are 50 something executives and most live in urban downtowns because I do work all across the country. The biggest request I'm getting right now is how do I get a garage built in historic district or can I engineer and underground garage in my back yard when they wont let me build a garage . The latest and perhaps easiest solution is the cardock garage and frankly it makes great sense in OTR for those buildings that have an alley but the old carriage house is gone. you can preserve patio space or have an off street parking pad solution and the garage is underground. Given the site circumstance it is possible to gain basement access and potentially part 2-4 cars underground in tandem with the lift being the access point for underground storage. This eliminates the wasted patio or green space that must be used with conventional underground ramp systems. It is highly secure too which makes it popular with high dollar cars. When you consider the cost of building new garage structure in a historic district it really is a cost effective solution. Probably giving the OTR bike/walk/streetcar crowd a heart attack right now but this is the best solution to allow parking and preserve open space and we should be looking at making this the preferred option for new infill or renovations to building a conventional garage structure that likely wont be compatible historically in dense urban neighborhoods. This has expanded options of allowing parking on the infill lot level with new historic compatible structures at street level. Lets face it the intrusion of garages in a 1850-1865 district is unsightly, this is how you can do it and preserve architectural integrity.

Best retrospective of the demise of the West End. Many local people have no clue about this book and if they read it they would learn how the rest of the world looks at Cincinnati. A lot of Urban Planning course curricula includes this book as part of the reading list. When you talk about what NOT to do as an urban planner, Detroit and Cincinnati are often cited as the prime examples of throwing away valuable assets just to get rid of Black people from their downtowns putting failed development in its place. It is a prime example of the shortsightedness that is Cincinnati even today, which we are seeing played out AGAIN in S. Fairmount for the MSD "daylighting project".

Suburbs have to become more walkable as those pushed out of the inner core of cities wind up there. hardest hit are what are call old suburbs built in the 50's-60's-70's that have already lost a lot of shopping opportunity due to expansion of the "far burbs' and newer shopping malls and 'lifestyle malls. Recent studies have shown that there are more people at or below the poverty line than ever before. Those people can't afford the cost of a car and an ever increasing senior population who intend to stay in the burbs who wont be able to drive a car in a few years. New solutions will have to be developed to address those issues. But public transportation may be more important in suburbia in a few years than walkability. Suburbia , unlike cities, was not planned around public transportation, it was planned around the proposition that everyone drives everywhere. But I can tell you that as 20 somethings have more disposable income, the freedom posed by a personal car is very attractive. I don't ever think there will ever be a majority position in this area that public transport is favored over cars. As you get older Biking in winter, or waiting at a bus or streetcar stop is not attractive or desirable. OTR will always need parking, maybe not as much in the 70's and 80's but it wont be because people don't want cars its just because density will be reduced. Instead of a tenement with 20 people living in it, it might be a triplex with 5 or 6 residents. As OTR develops there will be greater demand for luxury residences and condos. Actually probably the priciest real estate may once again be "millionaires row" on Dayton street. Based on the restorations I'm seeing prices are definitely going up. The proposition of owning a 5-6000 sq ft house will be very attractive to executives who want to be downtown. I actually thing N of Liberty has great potential for some of those tenement buildings to be turned into luxury homes. Not to mention small to midsized warehouses that are in the area. One could soon see stuff like this. http://www.everhartlistings.com/Listing.aspx?oid=822630&ot=213

CMHA as a result of their federal funding has to have demonstrated public input in decision making processes where affordable and low income projects are concerned. If we look at the recent Alaska avenue low income crap proposals you can see where when neighborhoods (not the community council) take charge of an issue their is enough pushback and projects go elsewhere. It now looks like Pendleton over by the casino. I might also mention this pushback did not just cone from local residents, other community and neighborhood organization (including several on the westside) got in this fight too sending letters and emails and going over CMHA directly to the federal authorities on this. People are starting to learn if you want action you go over the city's and county's head because the county and the city council tend to 'filter' public input to 'slant' public participation as support for projects when its really opposition. I have no doubt Pendleton will fight this particularly as it dooms a bunch of historic buildings to low income wasteland status. And if Pendleton asks, the same westside neighborhoods that supported the people over on Alaska will do the same thing. As to people you call "puppets" a very derogatory term since you don't agree with their position on certain issues, both of them have been to my neighborhood, walked around, looks at issues that impact us and have asked us what are key issues are. I've had meetings with the mayor Cranly's staff people on these same issues. I would rate communication and action on issues that impact my neighborhood a thousand percent better than when Mallory was mayor Mallory, or his staff, never even returned an email and trust me Roxane Qualls would never show up in my neighborhood. To say that Windburn and Smitherman are "puppets" of Indian Hill makes no sense based on what I'm seeing because Knox Hill isn't Indian Hill and they are engaged in what is going on here. Oh and as for what I'm doing in Knox Hill? We were the ones who filed the federal HUD citizens complaint that forced the city to re-evaluate over 5000 properties on the demo list at the time and force the city (Mayor Mallory and the last city council) to do a section 106 reviews, something that was not happening until we came along. That action bought time for hundreds of properties (including a bunch in OTR and West End that would be vacant lots right now) to find new owners and many of them are under restoration and saved now. We a were able to put enough pressure on MSD that several properties (including 4 that are national registry eligible) that would have been demoed for the MSD project were spared down in the Fairmount valley. That's what I've been doing... actually getting my hands dirty , saving historic buildings getting people into my neighborhood, working with district 3 to reduce crime in our boundaries, putting on a home tour, conducting street cleanups and getting statewide and national interest in my community, and showing other neighborhood groups in this city how to do it, and fight back when they ask.

JM...They are different. For example some neighborhoods are in redevelopment mode (they have direct interests in projects) others may be focused on affordable housing, others may be focused on green space development. Some may be pro density, some may be the opposite. The last election of the council and mayor was clearly a signal from the Westside that they had issues they felt needed addressing and, like it or not, it was an anti streetcar platform too. What if they had had more candidates with a stop wasting money on OTR message and gotten out just a little more voters? It very well could have happened. Imagine a city council pushing the agenda of One Neighborhood, Oh wait that's what has been happening and this election was pushback ( and dare I say a wakeup call)...but imagine if the entire council had been elected anti streetcar, anti 3CDC subsidy? Stop spending there? This is my point. District representation eliminates the possibility of any one group (agenda) stacking the council in way that may not be productive for a city as a whole. Had things just been a little different they would be paving over those tracks right now and selling off the new streetcars to some other city.

Interesting the latest development I read about in Indy is offering 4 car garages . Lifts that allow double space parking have exploded in sales in just about ever major city I know of. Interesting about New Orleans I'm working with a client right now installing lifts in his garage so he can park his cars off street. Cincinnati is NOT New York, people in the Midwest like to drive. Many of my friends in NYC would love to own a car and are envious that we have space for parking at affordable prices

You make districts regional in nature for example you have Riverside, sedamsville, lower price as one district. Perhaps Price Hill, Incline, Fairmount as another. Westwood probably based on pop is one district. Another would be downtown, OTR, Mt Adams , Pendleton, West End and so on. You can successfully create districts with fairly equal population with similar areas of interest. Maybe 6 districts and 3 at large council positions. But my point is that you actually have council people LIVING in a district they represent. It also prevents stacked election where one neighborhood really turns out the vote and stacks a council with their candidates.. stops councils that are super conservative or super liberal. So you can't have a tea party council or a socialist party council. The other alternative is eventually the business community will pressure for a city-county combined government and you will have suburbia dictating what happens in the city. If you really want to understand the current community council history read David Hurley's "Cincinnati The Queen City", or John Emmeus Davis's book "Contested Ground".

Natinja, go to Indy and look at the Lockerbie glove factory which started out at many units and today is about half that or any of the early built condo complexes, go to east coast cities where the same thing happened or Chicago. Pittsburg is already starting to build larger units. The whole gameplan for OTR was to start out cheap , get enough people in so the people with money wouldn't be afraid to move in. That is the way Every urban center redeveloped. Cincinnati is not going to be different and you are kidding youself is you thing OTR is going to be some multi income melting pot where the poor happily and peacefully co-exist with the 20 something hipsters. At 300 a sq ft , NONE of those people will be living in OTR at this rate. I already have OTR people over in Knox hill who sold out there and are restoring in my hood. Cincinnati will have a wealthy center with the poor pushed out to the townships and the old 50's suburbs. Who lives downtown in most cities? Lots of executives and middle managers over 40 with kids, They want larger units and garages for their cars