City Blights

Andy Dalton didn't have nearly the amount of preparation for preseason that Weeden had due to last year's lockout, and Weeden went to a bigger school in what used to be a strong conference. Weeden is taller with a stronger arm, therefore the NFL game suits him more naturally than Dalton. Andy was never as inaccurate as Brandon has been on short and intermediate routes. If you watch Weeden vs. the Pack, almost every throw is behind the receiver. His throws aren't where NFL quarterbacks are paid to place them. The Packers looked awful in several facets. They couldn't stop turning it over, and they didn't look like that deep of a roster. The defense gave up as many points as physically possible last season, and they don't look any better outside of that pass rush. The fact still remains that the Browns aren't a good football team. They look soundly outmatched on offense once again, even against atrocious defenses like Detroit's and Green Bay's, despite all the upgrades. The best part about that article you linked is the comments section. Damn near every single one had disparaging comments for Dalton, the Bengals, and Cincinnati. Most said that the Bengals would be the worst team in the league in 2011 and have the #1 pick in 2012. Some said that Dalton was a mistake and a bust. It's evident how unpopular the City of Cincinnati is amongst sports fans when you skim comments sections attached to articles written by national writers. Cleveland faces a similar circumstance, and was even bashed out of nowhere in the reply section of that Dalton article. Hopefully Weeden can enjoy a similar experience of proving the doubters wrong. I'm not a Weeden skeptic, I just don't like what I've seen from him OR the Browns coaching staff in relation to the Cleveland passing offense.

The Browns look terrible. Weeden hasn't been accurate even on simple patterns. The entire team has been even more sloppy than expected in the preseason. i put more stock into preseason than most because there are several things to be observed about the men on the field. I didn't see improvement from the Lions game to the Packers game, in fact, I seen regression in regards to discipline. The Browns don't look comfortable letting Weeden throw the ball, which should scare Cleveland. For a team to trade up for a guy and then put him on a leash as tight as the Weeden is on does not speak well for his acclimation to the NFL game thus far. That or he just isn't accurate and they want to work on it before exposing too much game tape.

There is financial benefit and potential career advancement in attacking the Streetcar. Some people have a louder conscience than others.

This post should be considered textbook on how to give a calm dialogue an unnecessarily aggressive turn. You're the only one dreaming up Hollywood conspiracy scenarios, I say that because thus far, you're the only one who's mentioned any. I'm personally curious about the circumstances of the fire. We can agree to disagree.

CincyGuy, this is what I've been saying. A fire can be suspicious without 3CDC being involved, right? Let's pretend it was arson done by an amateur. Whose to say that amateur wouldn't be familiar with the building and knew what would cause an electrical overload large enough to create a spark. Again, this doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with 3CDC. Corruption in the public sector isn't created equal. Acts of corruption are often are not predicated on cash exchange, but the promise of benefit from an external source.

I'm suspicious of the fire, Smitty's reopening in a toned-down fashion down the street is not what I'm concerned about. I think you equate a suspicious fire with the victim relocating miles away or going out of business. These things can be exclusive. Is critiquing what wasn't said more entertaining than responding to what was written?

Have you ever worked in the public sector? You'd be surprised at what messes are made that never make the papers. No one said it was true, but do I believe it was suspicious that Smitty's burned down, nothing else, just that his establishment burned? Yes, I'm absolutely suspicious.

Collusion is a possibility in my mind. Just as we don't know if there was anything fishy to the situation, if there indeed was, we wouldn't know the exact terms of such an agreement. Observing the situation step by step, including the fact that the edifice burned so badly, there are things to wonder about. Smitty getting an insurance claim does not prove that it wasn't intentional or that third parties were involved that may or may not be 3CDC. Smitty's Flashing World was an eyesore and a disruption to many, including the crowd that 3CDC is trying to attract to OTR.

That was quite suspicious.

I agree about Meijer, I only threw them in there because their hypermarket format (along with Wal-Mart's), along with Kroger upgrading many of their high volume locations, is what pushed Thriftway and IGA out of the Cincinnati market. The Kroger name is very strong in Cincinnati. People feel allegiance to it even if it is an enormous corporation that is more likely to place its hand in your pocket than to give you a pat on the back. I think that intrinsically influenced the decline in interest Cincinnatians showed toward Thriftway and IGA in their waning days. They weren't keeping up with today's grocery format, which is to offer as much non-grocery as grocery. Neither was Kroger, but they have the loyalty of the locals, as well as a store every two miles. Even with the CBD and OTR seeing new, single residents with annual incomes above $40,000, the average resident of OTR is living in extreme poverty. Having a mid-level grocer like Whole Foods in a scaled-down space as part of an urban shopping center, complete with a housing component, would be ideal to maintain their presence as well as having a Kroger for the community at large. I wonder if Whole Foods could work in Tower Place.

Teams that start bad usually finish better because 1) they can't be worse 2) the competition softens/doesn't take them seriously and/or 3) guys who are still fighting to play good football (typically young players) are getting more opportunities and are making an impact. I'm with KJP. Young teams that have been out of the playoff hunt since September play better in December. I like Stevie Johnson a lot, and they have talented players all over that Buffalo defense. I just think they still have holes scattered across the roster, which will make them mediocre in a number of things. One place they're definitely mediocre is quarterback. I couldn't believe Buffalo wanted Fitz to start after how horrible he was in Cincinnati in 2008, led alone sign him for $60 mil.

Part of the problem with upgrading from a Kroger or even a Meijer in a downtown locale will be pricing. Whole Foods and its clones don't fit the demographic of OTR, and most of Cincinnati for that matter.

^How much did Mahogany's neighbors receive in financial assistance? Like everything Mahogany's related, this is being blown out of proportion.

Opponents of the streetcar are frequently criticized for tying anything & everything to the streetcar, the proponents here seem equally adept. UO'ers, particularly in the Cincinnati threads, are obsessive about determining what is on-topic and what is not. I agree that threads get off-track. Anytime people are communicating freely, there's an opportunity to veer. I also notice that relevant tangents are proclaimed off-topic fairly often. Instead of commenting on others being off-topic, I would just contribute info I deem relevant if I desire the thread to return to a strict, linear focus.

Recall what I was saying several weeks ago....the Cleveland fanbase has come to identify with the role of victim so strongly that many feel they should wallow because that's what Cleveland fans do. I don't like it, and I'm not trying to attack anyone personally or the City of Cleveland. I'm just offering my observation of the many mood swings in the Cleveland sports world. I hesitate to offer up predictions before I've seen a preseason game, but on paper the Browns looked like a 5-win team with Richardson and Haden for 16 games. Maybe they steal one from Cincinnati, maybe they catch Pittsburgh asleep at the wheel, but no more than 2 wins in the division. Look at this schedule: WK1: Philadelphia - Loss WK2: @Cincinnati - Loss (the Bengals D-line will likely be very healthy in WK2, meaning a long day for Weeden) WK3: Buffalo - Hard to say. Will be a tight contest, but I'll give it to Cleveland. WK4: @Baltimore - Loss WK5: @NYG - Loss WK6: Cincinnati - Loss. The Bengals play better vs. the Browns in Cleveland. WK7: @Indianapolis - Win WK8: San Diego - If San Diego has no running game like last year, it could be a big win for Cleveland. WK9: Baltimore - Loss WK10: Bye WK11: @Dallas - It won't be December yet, so the Cowboys hold on. WK12: Pittsburgh - Loss WK13: @Oakland - Palmer was never that consistent vs. CLE. Could get interesting esp. if OAK has underachieved & locker room is imploding. WK14: Kansas City - Win WK15: Washington - Win WK16: @Denver - If Manning is still playing in WK16, Denver wins. Their defense is underrated, mostly b/c of Tebow. WK17: @Pittsburgh - L unless the Steelers have homefield throughout locked up. Unlikely in AFC considering the Pats' routinely easy schedule. I only see four wins (Buffalo, Indianapolis, Kansas City and Washington). San Diego and Oakland are possible wins. If the Browns win one of those battles, that puts them right at five wins. Fans should be concerned about Richardson's long term health, and if he is to miss significant time this season, they should be angry with Browns mgmt. for trading up to acquire a major health risk. The Browns in 2012 won't go far no matter who's healthy and performing. They don't have enough talent at TE, WR, RB or Safety. They can't stop the run and can't rush the passer. Frostee Rucker should help that, but I still don't see the Browns as a team that can play 60 minutes of football.

The downtown Kroger should be the prize if there was to be a renovation, but Walnut Hills still needs an upgrade. The way the store interacts with its own plot as well as the environs is atrocious. I don't know how that's addressed outside of demolition. A slightly smaller store with a street presence and more goods that people want should solve any long-term solvency for a Kroger in that part of town. Otherwise there will just be a gaping hole, and certainly 100% of that business Walnut Hills' store was doing won't make to another Kroger. A healthy chunk will go to Wal-Mart.

You make great points and I agree with all of that. I still feel that stocking those awful, awful stores with better products with a better set-up could solve those problems. Kroger has the benefit of being in the heart of OTR which is turning into Hipster Village, and is certainly in the geographic heart of Walnut Hills right there at the crux of two corridors with untold potential. Sooner than later, Walnut Hills is going to be the next landing strip for yups and others interested in Cincinnati's gritty urban core. There's really no place better for Kroger to be in the City of Cincinnati if those stores theoretically would be closed and reopened elsewhere. Investing in that property by building well-lit stores with better stock and a street facade makes sense for the direction that Cincinnati's inner core (DT, Uptown excl. Avondale, Walnut Hills) is going.

If Kroger can't sell groceries in two areas devoid of options (OTR, Walnut Hills), whose fault is that? Kroger needs to do better business if they want people to spend more money in their stores. I've heard plenty about revitalization on McMillan, but what about Gilbert? It has massive potential for LRT and linking the Eastside together, as well as urban living. Gilbert could be quite an impressive corridor.

Are you aware of how successful Kroger's Norwood store at Surrey Square actually is? (for example, not too long ago it outsold the Hyde Park store for an entire quarter) The reason why is that this huge store services a "food desert' within the central city that extends all the way from Avondale/Evanston up through Pleasant Ridge--and maybe even into Walnut Hills. BTW, because I live only two blocks from the store, I can personally attest to its broad appeal and absolute necessity to neighborhoods to its north and south. Look at it any way you want; for Kroger this particular store is a gold mine. Surrey Square, besides being an awful development, still isn't local enough for most people in the Walnut Hills area. There is a demand for a store there, that's why one currently exists. Because they're poor does not mean they require marginalization. And your line about Kroger playing Santa Claus is mind-boggling, but I suppose you're entitled to make yourself appear elitist.

I don't like the idea of private citizens raising funds for a Fortune 500 franchise. Maybe a dynamic Kroger with an immediate presence in the lot space on Gilbert directly in front of the current store. It could have a mini fresh market attached to the back of the store with a corridor fashion, a la Findlay Market. If you live in Walnut Hills, which is damn near downtown, the nearest decent Kroger is in Hyde Park. There's a demand for a more capable big-box provider in the area. Kroger and the franchisee needs to realize this if at all possible to execute.

Does anyone have this angle http://www.pbase.com/deadwing/image/53176265.jpg with Queen City Square?

Agree on Boston, it´s a mess driving around that central city.

Who knows, maybe this guy wants to win more than Lerner. Could be a good thing for Cleveland if he finds 5-11 records absolutely unacceptable. Current ownership does not harbor that sentiment.

Well, you may have been all over and live in Europe, but your knowledge of basic Western history is completely off base. The Industrial Revolution was already well underway in the UK and Europe while Ohio's few scattered residents were still engaged in the trading of fur pelts, so try again on that one. Ohio's industrial base came into its own much later and lasted into the post-war years, but has severely declined since then, as it has almost anywhere that isn't named China or India. Cincinnati's industrial potential was severely undercut by changing transportation patterns in the wake of the Civil War and the emergence of Chicago as the shipping and railroad hub of the continent's inland. As for the comparison of historical charm and geography between Cincinnati and most European cities: while Cincinnati has much to be proud of, it is no London or Paris. Anybody who claims otherwise is clearly so blinded by their civic boosterism that they've reached the point of becoming delusional. The comparison only becomes valid when discussing those European cities that were nearly obliterated during World War II, but saying "We look better than Dresden!" isn't much of a selling point. OTR's most apt comparisons would be certain neighborhoods on the east coast, such as Boston's North End, Manhattan's Lower East Side, Brooklyn Heights, and parts of Philadelphia. And there's no shame in that, as they're all beautiful neighborhoods and OTR has the potential to match them. But compared to Knightsbridge, Notting Hill, or any random neighborhood in central Paris? Please. How many people would've even heard of the French town of Chartres without its cathedral, or the English town of Salisbury, or the German town of Cologne? In larger European capitals, cathedrals like St. Paul's in London, Notre Dame in Paris, and St. Peter's Basilica in Rome serve as icons of the city and are among the top attractions. Even in American cities such as New York, St. Patrick's Cathedral and the Cathedral of St. John the Divine are huge tourist destinations. (And I'm speaking from personal experience here, as I was co-chair of the acolyte guild at St. John the Divine for the better part of four years.) Nobody is saying you have to agree with the theology being preached inside, but one cannot deny the cathedrals' historical roles as the center of civic life and as major pilgrimage and tourist destinations, even as Europe has become more secular. When most of these cathedrals were built, there was no distinction between religious life and civic life, and the cathedrals were the hubs of both. (And for every church in Europe that began as a mosque, there at least an equal number of former churches that are now mosques. And most of Europe was never Islamic, so the vast majority of churches in Europe have always been Christian. But the particular flavor of religion being practiced inside the building is irrelevant to the purpose of this discussion.) Does this mean ornate churches will bring flocks of tourists to OTR? No, because Cincinnati has nothing that even comes close to the scale and history of a major European cathedral, and never will. And that's fine, as Cincinnati has plenty of other attractions. That said, if a congregation such as, say, Christ Church Cathedral on Fourth Street decided to build an iconic new church building in OTR and use it in a way that truly engages the public, I'd be all in favor of it. The new Roman Catholic cathedral in Los Angeles, designed by Rafael Moneo, proves that well-designed modern church buildings can be major centers of civic life and draw lots of visitors. As for Houston: While Houston will never win any awards for beauty, the fact remains that Houston is growing and Cincinnati is shrinking. This illustrates the point I was making in the first place, that it takes more than historical charm to make a city attractive to tourists and newcomers. Otherwise people would be flocking to places like Detroit and Buffalo while Miami and Honolulu sit empty. Such an abrasive post, there. I have to tell you, you started it off wrong though. I'm not one to be challenged concerning history, so you might have to tuck your tail and run while you can. You made so many points that weren't relevant to anything I said. You also contradicted several of your own points. For example, weren't you just campaigning that religious structures are fantastic for an economy? Then why all of a sudden are you willing to talk about Houston having a true economy and Cincinnati shrinking because its economy isn't what it needs to be, despite having a number of old religious structures with a lot of historical significance? Then you make the jump to constructing new, outlandish cathedrals for the purpose of making money in the future. Where are you going with all of this, financially and morally? That's why we build churches? To make money? That would support the point I've been making the whole time, which is that many major cathedrals were wasteful at the expense of the commoner. You have to understand, the Industrial Revolution carries itself all the way through the first half of the 20th century before the Age of Technology fully transitions itself as the more relevant movement. Ohio had already been a global center of petroleum trading, heavy manufacturing, and outright innovation. I'll let you do the research and find out just what Ohio contributed throughout this time period. I'm not the one who needs lessons in history, that's you. I don't even live in Cincinnati and I'm being accused of being biased. I live in Europe and love it. Why wouldn't I be biased for the purposes of boosting European culture? There are tons of villages and small cities in Europe that are famous for a religious structure that drown in poverty because that structure is all the town has. It's an everlasting reminder of how poorly resources were spent in the past and how time has passed that region by. Your love affair with tourist impact is very peculiar considering how you just praised Houston for not being touristy but growing nonetheless. London is charming in some ways, and Paris is beautiful, but the rustic character of Cincinnati buildings are also special and should be noticed. Read historical record from Reconstruction through Cincinnati's Golden Age, you'll find that Cinti was compared to London a number of times in regard to charm, beauty and sophistication. I have a right to believe that my eyes do not lie to me. I've seen many famous cities, and Cincinnati was among the most beautiful. You don't have to believe it, just don't call me a liar because I do. The sun is a rarity in London and the brick isn't nearly as pretty. Neither is the street layout or the scale in many areas. You're not seeing the whole picture because you're absorbed into tourist worship.

You're joking, right? Have you actually been to London or Paris or Prague or Vienna? London invented the Age of Industrialization, and cities like Chicago were born of it (much to Cincinnati's detriment). Cincinnati is great compared to most American cities, but let's keep things in perspective. While Cincinnati has great historical fabric that should be preserved, restored, and celebrated, it's just one piece of the picture. People don't go to Cincinnati to re-live some fetishized vision of a mythical past; they go to Cincinnati because they feel like they can build a future there. Simply saying, "Look how awesome we used to be back in the 1800's!" isn't going to draw crowds of people to the city. And your comment about "once-mosques turned Medieval cathedrals" belies an ignorance about history. Christianity was well-establsihed throughout the Roman Empire when Islam was just getting started, and I can't think of a single major European cathedral that began as a mosque. (There are several examples -- most notably the Hagia Sophia in Istanbul -- of former churches becoming mosques in areas that later converted to Islam, such as Spain and Turkey.) Regardless of theological implications, cathedrals were as much about civic pride as religion, and typically served as major centers for civic gatherings, events, and commerce. They were the Madison Square Gardens of their age. I live in Europe and have been all over. I stand by my comments. You're also giving Europe a little too much credit for the evolution of the Industrial Revolution. Ohio is a major, major contributor on its own, and if Ohio was its own country in 2012, it would be one of the most self-sufficient and wealthy nations on Earth. Ohio makes things people need. People visit towns and cities to experience the quaintness, the charm and the aura, not just to visit a religious structure. Houston is the future, but most anyone who's been to both cities can remark about the historic fabric of Cincinnati and how much more attractive it is than any Texan metropolis. Cincinnati's combination of geographic uniqueness and nearly unmatched charm is it's biggest selling point. That's why OTR rotting for 50+ years is such a major American tragedy, in addition to the demolition of the West End, Kenyon-Barr, etc. Your commentary on cathedrals is miles off. Of course cathedrals existed before Islamic African invasions, that was never in question. The fact remains that the Moors constructed quite a few mosques in Mediterranean Europe. As each individual ex-kingdom within Portugal, Spain, France and Italy expelled the Moorish crown, most of them were converted into Christian homes of prayer, or demolished altogether. On the exterior of some cathedrals, it's very obvious based on the styles exhibited as well as the difference in materials, not just because of era, but because of culture.