dean

You're correct. The Dean is muddying the issue deliberately. I believe the $185 submitted for the stimulus would be used on the next two phases as well, and if it was just called 'phase 1' in the request I'm sure it was an omission. You're correct. I have, on more than one occassion, personally informed Mr. Haap (aka The Dean) about the correct route, phasing, and respective costs of each. The easiest and most clear breakdown can be seen here: http://cincystreetcar.wordpress.com/2009/02/02/the-project/ This link has been provided to Mr. Haap probably a half a dozen times, maybe more. The answers to his questions about the route, phasing, and respective costs are all right there and presented in a colorful and easy to read manner. You can check out the full GoogMap version here: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?ie=UTF8&hl=en&msa=0&msid=111016685324550263695.0004608905e32b3f80b3a&z=13 And just to break it down for you once more:

Jason Haap has not been asking question so that he can get answers. He is merely asking questions to ask questions. It is a strategy to try to surround the project with doubt to those who don't have the time or energy to closely follow the facts. Many of his questions have already been answered for him to turn around and pose the same question the next chance he gets. Let them talk amongst themselves. On Explore Cincinnati, I remember my number of $215 million being criticized. If memory serves, they went with the $102 number. If the number is $185, then I was closer to the accurate amount. Part of your problem is that instead of providing clear answers, you say things like "check the other 195 pages." Or, "read X-number of reports and get back to me." This strategy will not work for you long term. Why engage it? For example, if I go to the Cincinnati Streetcar web page (a place that should have accurate information, IMHO), I find this: " Phase 1 of the streetcar system will cost only $102 million. " Well, that is not true, is it? Phase 1 will cost $185 million? Or, was the federal government given wrong information in the request for stimulus money? You can't have it all these ways...

Is that all you can do? Insult us pesky little dissenters with our bothersome questions?

Honest question here: Does anyone know the situation regarding sewer credits as it pertains to potential OTR development? Thanks. (Reference)

http://winburnreport.com/Winburn%20Downtown%20Trolleys.pdf

The first loop of the streetcar route is already developed. Aronoff, Fountain Square, Cadillac Ranch, and so forth. Vine Street in OTR, Gateway Quarter, and all the buildings already under redevelopment. Washington Park, the new SCPA -- all of it. Without a streetcar. So what, is the streetcar going to make them develop all this again?

No, they better spend millions on rails so people can "be comforted by knowing where the route goes." Get a grip.

Bearcast Radio DJ tags buses for "creeps and weirdos".

No problem. With a full time job and two small kids, I have nothing but time. ;-)

I'm happy to debate, but not in a chaotic format like this. I see Jake and his DJ friend have said their radio program will respond to our rebuttal. Expect a more organized and detailed list for them to refute on the air in the next day or so, to be published at The Beacon. Again, keep telling everyone that you are the experts and the rest of us aren't as smart as you. We'll see how that strategy pays off at the ballot box. By the way, apparently I have read more than you think I have. I just don't understand what some of you are talking about. For example, one of you keeps talking about subsidies to the bio-fuel industry whenever I ask about government subsidies to development (why hasn't anyone stated a dollar amount yet?). But why do you wish to talk about subsidies to bio-fuel? I'm not talking about subsidies to King Coal. It's a red herring, dropped in the middle of accusing me of dropping red herrings. Very weird. My weekend free time is up. It's been real, guys.

You're welcome to answer as you please. But I was specifically looking for constructive criticism on the plan that is on the table, not pie in the sky wishes for Light Rail or the advice to not proceed at all. I'm giving you the opportunity to take what may not be a perfect plan and make it better. If you don't want to participate constructively, that's fine, but please don't claim that we aren't willing to accept input from those with opposing viewpoints. You forbade the answer "add buses," which means that the idea of, say, a painted line bio-fuel tire trolley is not acceptable. I don't understand that.

Happy to. Mayor Mallory's Climate Change Task Force studied this extensively using VMT and other data that were explicitly calculated by the economists who investigated the downtown leg of the Cincinnati Streetcar. The reduction in CO2 caused by the decrease in Vehicle Miles Travelled due to mode shifts from car to streetcar was about 2:1. In other words, for every unit of CO2 produced by burning coal to generate electricity to power the streetcar, two units of CO2 were reduced because there was less driving. Furthermore, when you start to figure-in the dense settlement patterns that are likely to develop because of the presence of the streetcar, the reductions are more like, I recall, 5:1 or 6:1 because, as Dean saw in the photos he so disparages, people start to live their everyday lives around the streetcar, livng closer to where they work, buying groceries near where they live, entertaining themselves closer to home. They live in multi-family dwellings which are inherently more energy efficient. It's clear The Dean has little awareness of the subject. He is being fed talking points by rail opponents and has a very shallow understanding of what is involved. It's not been pretty to see what has unfolded over the past few days. I kinda feel sorry for him. You don't make any sense. You are offsetting the CO2 from coal burning due to people driving less. The same would happen with a bio-fuel trolley.

I believe you're referring to me, and if so, I did nothing of the sort. Here's what I ACTUALLY said: Please stop misquoting. I said nothing of streetcars being worse. Assuming that a streetcar and biodiesel bus did emit an identical number of emissions, clearly it's better to not have them spewed directly into the lungs of passengers and pedestrians. Really? Then what do you call posts like the following? I understand that you've partially addressed these questions in your most recent post, and I appreciate that. But please don't pretend that we're closed minded and not trying to address the concerns that opponents may have: Whatever. In that example, I am asked a question, then banned from giving a number of answers. What if one of those banned answers is the one I think correct? Should I be prevented from giving it? (Hell, I'm starting to feel like I'm in chapter 6 of Plato's Republic. Keep up the good work, Thrasymachus.)

And for the record -- if you want the rest of us to care about whether you stay here or not, stop stomping your feet and throwing a tantrum when things don't go your way. Look (not that you care), but I did not run away from the City to live in West Chester. I'm here. I'm staying here. I decided I cared about my City and I have made it a home. So I think I have a bit more at stake than some people with no roots, no investment, who can just haul off and leave on a whim.

What are you talking about? Are you on a campaign against the car? Newsflash - we have them now. Let's talk about serving the society that exists, not the utopia in your imagination.

Comments like this are why people on the outside of the debate will side against the streetcar dogmatists. Look, I understand I have walked into the echo chamber by coming on this board. No one here will consider alternatives. Your minds are made, and no information can change your position. For a mind experiment, consider listing what sorts of information might cause you to change your mind. Here is what will cause me to reconsider: 1. Show me a streetcar plan that does not put out more CO2 than gasoline. My numbers were for straight gasoline -- the worst of the worst, and it's still better than coal. Bio-fuels are better, especially depending on the mix. Switch grass and grease is better than corn, for example. 2. Show me, in concrete terms, any example where development followed a rail line WITHOUT government subsidies for that very development. If you cannot do this, stop insisting that the development was due EXCLUSIVELY to the rail line. We can bring development with subsidies alone. 3. I keep saying that, for me, there are three key concepts for sustainability: environmental, economic, and social. We touched on the first, and briefly on the second. I think justifying an expenditure in the millions of dollars should be juxtaposed with the kinds of services the City keeps shutting down -- like health clinics for the poor, or swimming pools in poor neighborhoods. I think basic services like these are part of our moral responsibility. And I'm not sure how to justify the price tag of this plan when I know how these other things get the ax. You may be tempted to tell me that, at some undetermined future time, the streetcar will have made it so there is enough development to feed back into the tax base to fund these very things. I've heard that story before. With Convergys. With the stadium tax. I think people struggling don't want to wait around for The Next Big Fix to come during some undetermined future time. The truth is that time doesn't come, time and time again. This is also the story people on the ground hear when collecting signatures. Again, those have been my three key points. I could go on, but you should be able to get the drift. It's just deductive. The broad population, beyond this echo chamber, sound more like me than you. Instead of yelling at me, get used to the fact and learn how to engage us. Don't yell at us for not engaging you satisfactorily. Do you think insulting us will help? If you want us to stop our behavior, is this a strategy for doing it? I think you need to convince people like me that you are right, not this constant barrage of insults and character attacks. It will only reinforce momentum against your positions -- which, so far, seem quite indefensible. Or, should I say, you keep not defending them.

No, No, No, No, NO. The charter is Cincinnati's constitution. Sure, any ammendment can be revoked, but the fact is they shouldn't be there in the first place, and getting them revoked is a MUCH harder task then putting them on. What you're doing is tying the hands of the ELECTED officials of this city. How in the HELL are they supposed to get anything done when all your group of merry men has to do is find 6,000 nuts to sign your petition? And then proceed to run a fear-based campaign against the street car before the vote? Haap, what is your ultimate goal? Honestly. Because right now it looks like it is either one of two things: a.) to make a name for yourself b.) to make sure this city can NEVER compete for the best and brightest I agree 100% I listened to the entire Bearcat broadcast! Haag, your way out of your element and your doing more harm to your name and credibility (if you had any). It has become BLATENTLY OBVIOUS that you, COAST, and NAACP are not very informed on the subject and are using this just for political purposes and PERSONAL GAIN AND NOT TO MAKE CINCY ANY BETTER. Coal??????????? WTF????????????? That's all you can come up with? Get out of town and SEE the world. Broaden your horizons. You might just be enlightened!! Yes, coal. Something you don't understand about the tax on the environment from burning coal?

Two points: 1. It seems many of you still struggle to understand the implication of coal burning. Earlier on this strand, someone admitted coal burning was worse, but at least it was "somewhere else." How absurd! 2. Since it was recorded and is now online, it was for a broad audience. Besides, it was just a story. The real joke was Schneider's slide show, as if staged pictures prove a point.

New construction needs to tap into better energy saving strategies, like geo-thermal systems for heating and cooling, for example. Presumably, all people need a place to live. If new construction and renovation as part of redevelopment accomplish this, then that is a net gain for the environment. Try again.

No, No, No, No, NO. The charter is Cincinnati's constitution. Sure, any ammendment can be revoked, but the fact is they shouldn't be there in the first place, and getting them revoked is a MUCH harder task then putting them on. What you're doing is tying the hands of the ELECTED officials of this city. How in the HELL are they supposed to get anything done when all your group of merry men has to do is find 6,000 nuts to sign your petition? And then proceed to run a fear-based campaign against the street car before the vote? Haap, what is your ultimate goal? Honestly. Because right now it looks like it is either one of two things: a.) to make a name for yourself b.) to make sure this city can NEVER compete for the best and brightest So are you upset that we don't have red light cameras? (Or is that part of the campaign against the car?) The truth is that this public safety issue was raised in the Finance Committee as a money raising strategy. That is inappropriate, and an abusive use of government. If you agree, you see the power of a petition. If you wish we had red light cameras, then we have fundamental disagreement on how things work.

Train Wreck, by Kevin Osborne

The staged photographs did not show anything. What will you say if I get someone in Portland to send me photos that damage the "reputation" of streetcars? Will you talk about how persuasive they are? Someone, earlier, wanted to know why we weren't working with the streetcar advocates. Very early, on my web site, I posted the idea that someone should reach out the NAACP to meet, discuss shared concerns, and to see if there was a way to avoid the petition drive. I was just musing on my own. A guy named Bill Landeck (who signs his posts "JFD" ) immediately posted on other blogs (some for the streetcar advocates) suggesting the NAACP wanted money to stop the petition drive. Then I saw people responding to his comment as if he were serious. So that was the immediate response I got when I merely floated the concept -- anger, resentment, and more people going on about how I must say whatever Smitherman says. Whatever. Another component in that line of thinking: this idea that my support of the petition drive means I should make the first move. Why don't you ask yourselves this question? Kevin Osborne at City Beat did a great cover story called "Train Wreck." Have you read it? It outlines concerns pretty nicely from both sides. But when you say that people like me should talk to "your side," well, who is the representative? Is it John Schneider? Uncle Rando? Chris Bortz? Everyone on council who has voted "yes"? Milton Dohoney? Mayor Mallory? For the NAACP, it's Smitherman. The Chair of COAST is Jason Gloyd. The rep for the SW Greens is Josh Krekeler. If you care about The Beacon, that's me and Justin Jeffre. Now with whom, specifically, are we supposed to meet? And quite frankly, as I mentioned in the blog post I mentioned, for the life of me I still can't figure out why the relevant politicians did not reach out to the coalition early on, just to talk and to see if there was common ground. It might be too late for now. Listen, Charlie Winburn is finishing up the touches on the final version of his alternate plan. Who from this group has reached out to him, to collaborate with him on that plan?

It is clearly not mass transit. It is a circulator, at last in its current incarnation. If expanded all the way through three phases to the zoo, it would cover 8 miles. That said, however, it is certainly the first step in what could be a mass transit system. Maybe if we took the 800 million dollars that the Dean's comrade Chris Smitherman wants to spend on widening I-75, add it to the current proposal, then we really would have some semblance of mass transit. If we're going to govern by ballot box, why doesn't the Dean put the I-75 widening project on the ballot as well? Incidentally, the whole subsidies argument is a weak red herring designed to muddle the issue. Do we really want to go down that road? If so, what are the subsidies for the beloved bio-fuels which will supposedly supply the fuel for these imaginary trolley trucks? Like I said, it's a red herring. To bypass it, assume the trolley-trucks and streetcars both have available the same economic subsidies. Which will spur more economic development? If the Dean has read the studies, then he knows the answer to this question. You are not making any sense. Why would you talk about subsidies to the bio-fuel industry? I have said nothing about King Coal and his massive government subsidies. I also have not said the streetcar itself (or the trolleys themselves) are subsidized. I'm talking about the development that happens near the route. Get it? not sure who isn't getting it. If you are concerned about development subsidies along streetcar routes, then maybe you should put that to a vote as well. Your debate seems to be getting pretty far afield. If you want to talk about the efficacy of government subsidies, then pretty bio-fuels are fair game. Like I said, you've gone off on a tangent that seems more designed to obfuscate than make a point. Why not get it back to streetcars? As I have repeatedly stated, let me keep it simple for you, assume the eco development subsidies for streetcars and trolley trucks are equal. What will generate greater economic development? The streetcars or your beloved trolley trucks (on bio-fuels of course)? If you have done your homework assignment for today (I suspect not) then you would know the answer. By the way, when are you going to repudiate your comrade Smitherman's demand to widen 8 miles of I-75 at the cost of 800 millions as opposed to the streetcar route (phases I through III)? Seems kind of at odds with your goals of economic, environmental and social sustainability? Yet neither you nor Justic has chosen to disavow or repudiate Smitherman, despite...oh, what....10 requests on my part today to do so? Stay tuned for Tuesday's Soapbox for request #11. What should happen to I-75 in your view? (Just a simple question - don't read more to it than is here...)

By the way, how many people am I debating here, at one time, while being accused of cherry-picking? How about you send John Schneider to meet with The Beacon, the NAACP, COAST, and the SW Ohio Green Party. We'll say a bunch of things, and if he doesn't answer he'll be cherry picking. Oh, wait, he already did that with just me at the UC Forum.

Uh... okay. Because if you went to our website, we'd, uh... get... uh... Nevermind.