DaninDC

Thanks for sharing that, noozer. I can't say I'm shocked, though. Believe it or not, it's actually cheaper for me to live in DC than it would be to live in Ohio, simply because I don't need a car here, and I would pay about the same in rent. My transportation costs are about $80/month, and my employer picks up most of that. Now Detroit, that's a fun place, what with car insurance alone running 3 grand a year for a Chevy Cavalier.

It would instantly be the busiest light rail line in Cleveland.

Wow. If you conservatively assume that all bus ridership is on weekdays, even the 326 only works out to 13,200 riders a day. That's decent enough, but not particularly busy as far as bus routes go. It kinda makes you realize how car-dominated and sprawled-out the City of Cleveland has become.

I respectfully disagree. Massive parking lots are equally eyesores and wastes of space. Since SYC won't actually be in a neighborhood, it won't make any neighborhoods more attractive. It will benefit people already living in nearby neighborhoods, though, because of its proximity. As far as "attracting" people back to Cleveland--Macedonia et. al. already exist for people who want big box shopping. Why would anyone move into the city because of this project? Let the days of the big city $6/hr wage slave begin!

No one needs a Suburban for their personal use. No one.

God forbid anyone have to park on the street! What will we ever do? Crossing the street = dangerous, but teenagers driving?--perfectly safe.

Ah yes, mall-ification!

And since large corporate behemoths aren't often familiar with individual neighborhoods, they way they determine they can make money in a particular location is if other people are already making money in that location.

At risk of getting jumped all over again... My neighborhood has plenty of places like this--hardware store, grocer, a couple clothing shops, a bookstore, and niche specialty shops. These are basic-needs kind of things, so it really doesn't have anything to do with the wealth of the neighborhood. Most of these businesses are able to survive, though, specifically because the neighborhood generally spurns chains (although there are a couple chain coffee shops, the local ones still do good business). I think that the question of retail is a self-fulfilling prophecy. If you only pursue the large chain stores, you get large chain stores. If you nurture neighborhood retail, you'll get neighborhood retail. This isn't to say that Cleveland should necessarily become its own developer and spell out the specific businesses that should open in each location--that's for the free market to decide. What small business-oriented entreprenurial programs does the City of Cleveland offer, though, to encourage neighborhood retail? Again, I'm not against the chain stores as much as I am against the architecture and location, but I don't see why Cleveland can't have a mix.

Let's hope so. There definitely needs to be some kind of competition to bring about new and innovative development, instead of waiting for things to plod along per usual.

This is awesome. It'll be great to see more activity down there. My fingers are crossed. As an aside, I'm not sure I agree that Tower City failed because it was too small, as much as it was a disastrous design with a virtually nonexistent residential component.

Which, I think, makes it even more ridiculous to invite huge box retail into a city in Cleveland's position. Does Cleveland really need more empty mom-and-pop storefronts in the neighborhoods? Or do we just expect everyone in the city to drive to SYC for all their shopping needs? I don't buy the commonly-held notion that it takes a lot of money to build a decent-looking urban place.

I think a lot of my frustration stems from the "silver bullet" approach, or what I call the "Monty Python Economic Development Strategy" that Cleveland embraced in the 1990s. For a while, it seemed like it was expected that the next big Project would rejuvenate the city--Galleria, Tower City, RRHoF, Jacobs Field, Gund Arena (refuse to call it by that atrocious corporate name), and so on. This almost seems like an extension of that. The stuff going on downtown is largely great, but SYC doesn't look much different than the POS at I-480 and Tiedeman, or on top of the landfill in Garfield Heights. It just drive-in, drive-out dehumanizing parking lot architecture with no regard for the surrounding context. Let's just say it doesn't inspire confidence. AND, I have to add that if there is enough retail demand close to downtown to fill that much square footage, there isn't any reason why it can't be in real neighborhoods

Forgot about the form-based zoning, blinker. Thanks for getting me back up to speed. Mrnyc, I understand what you're saying. We've got a fair amount of "big box" ourselves, albeit more in mixed-use urban context than SYC. I'm naturally very skeptical and cynical, which is probably why I'm an engineer. Aside from the goings-on in the WHD, though, the City of Cleveland isn't doing a whole lot to convince anyone that they understand what it takes to create a quality urban environment. SYC doesn't help that perception. The way I see it, if you focus on restoring retail in neighborhoods, and creating actual places with character, then you might have a chance of gaining residents who are tired of the suburban lifestyle. If your city looks just like the suburbs, though, you have zero chance at best. Man, I'm a wound up guy, and I know Clevelanders tend to have a chip on their shoulder, but that's no reason to make things personal. Can we agree to move on, and think about better ways for the City to approach something like this in the future?

What facts did I miss, exactly? I think I've considered the other points of view expressed here, but I fail to see how creating a slew of poverty-wage jobs helps the City of Cleveland--especially if you want to attract the middle class (which does include white collar folks as well). If you feel like I put words in your mouth, wimwar, I apologize. I think the City blew an opportunity here. In all reality, what's going to stop the next developer from putting a Wal Mart (with requisite enormous parking lot) right on Euclid Avenue in the future? Developers are only going to build whatever the law and the regs allow....

I understand that, wimwar, but the City didn't help matters by giving the site suburban-style zoning and failing to develop any sort of architectural standard. The developer doesn't build anything there if the City doesn't issue a permit! I guess you would have me believe it's acceptable to let developers run roughshod over the City, huh?

Again, it's building something just to build *something*. Has anyone in the City ever analyzed the negative impact this shopping center will have on existing neighborhood businesses? Personally, I'd rather see a park built on the site, connecting with the towpath trail. Retail belongs in neighborhoods--not in out-of-the-way locations.

Did I ever once say that DC was the model for everything? Absolutely not. The schools here are terrible, as are the libraries. Parks and Rec could use a little work, although they're improving. Public Works, in my opinion, has been very good. None of that excuses Cleveland for its crimes against urbanity. What's next--implode May Company for a drive-through liquor store, just to have *something* on the site? I guess it's easier to attack someone personally than address the issue at hand, though.

And what was that supposed to accomplish? Detract from the point I made that Cleveland is taking a decidedly generic approach to this project? Were you trying to make us all forget that Cleveland generally uses cookie-cutter approaches that have already failed in other cities? I'm not against "big box" retail, per se, but recreating Suburbia so close to downtown is the start of a very slippery slope that will eventually swallow the entire city, if left unfettered. In fact, the SYC design is probably the worst possible thing you could do in that location, environmental concerns aside. But, what do I know? I live somewhere else.... I will say that Cleveland has always had a very introverted and stubborn view of itself. It almost seems as if everyone in charge of things has never actually been to another city to see what works and what doesn't. I don't believe in building things just to build *something* or *anything*, which comes from my experiences in professional practice. There's a certain standard of quality that isn't being met here, and too many people here are willing to accept crumbs when they can get the whole pie. With such a roll-over attitude, is it any wonder that people with money to invest don't take Cleveland very seriously? Maybe you guys are happy with half-assed. I'm not. I think Cleveland can (and should) do better. But perhaps I'm just overly optimistic. Understand, though, that the bright young people Cleveland needs aren't leaving town to go live in jive plastic McMansions and shop at Wal Mart.

How did this thread become about DC? Let's stick to the topic, folks--everything else is just noise. If you have a personal attack, then send me a personal message.

So when are they going to plop a Costco on the Muny Parking Lot?

My argument isn't based on class warfare. My argument is based on something very simple: that suburbia is heavily subsidized, and if Cleveland decides to fashion itself on suburbia, it will be unable to compete. If Cleveland ends up looking like Macedonia or Strongsville, it will die an even faster death, simply because the financial playing field is so heavily tilted toward new suburbs, thanks to short-sighted federal and state policies. For the record, the Home Depot in DC is a P.O.S. The manner in which that site was developed was a huge mistake and waste of limited resources. Thankfully, denser, more urban development will be built on the adjacent Rhode Island Avenue Metro station parking lot. Blaming high housing costs on density is a specious argument at best. Loudoun County has much lower density, but much higher housing prices, than most parts of the District. It's not my fault that most suburbanites find the city unaffordable because they "need" 2000 sf and three cars. The truth is, DC doesn't have much of a middle class because it *never* had much of a middle class. There was never any heavy industry here as in Chicago, Cleveland, or New York. It has been, and continues to be, a mostly white collar town with a large service sector. Creating denser neighborhoods in Cleveland would only cause real estate to increase in value by driving up demand by *gasp* actually creating attractive places to live, work, and shop. And yeah, I'm pissed about SYC because it's a disingenous lowest-common-denominator piece of crap. Cleveland deserves much better, but so many are ready to accept whatever crumbs may fall their way. Once Cleveland starts doing things in a positive, pro-active manner, instead of always waiting on its heels and playing catch-up, I might be a little more positive on the place.

Excitement over a Wal Mart only illustrates how far Cleveland has fallen. You can throw labels on me and attack me personally all you want--the low expectations that Clevelanders have for their city will continue to drive "negative" people like me to places with real opportunity.

Well, a lot of people have to shop at Wal Mart for low low prices, because they have to be able to afford the gas for their truck/SUV to get to Wal Mart in the first place.

That explains why Cleveland keeps winning that "All-America City" designation. I guess the idea of "Cleveland" will be something to regale the grandkids about one day, because by then, it'll look just like any other suburban piece of crap. I think it's incredibly sad to slap together CMU and EIFS bullshit just to build "something", let alone get excited about it. Let's see how far this "progress" gets Cleveland when Steelyard Commons is vacant in ten years.