slumcat

"New urbanism" is neither new nor urban IF the development is lacking a fixed route mass transit connection to the site's surroundings and the larger metro area. Not sure exactly what land they are referring to, but I know the general area. I used to work in the '741 Center' bldg. on the east side of 741, by the water tower. Do you know what is planned for that land? Anyway, when I worked there Warren County Transit was very limited capacity, using gasoline powered vans, more-less operating like a taxi service or rural social services transportation provider. Is it still like that? My experience there goes back 20 years. Anyway, bottom line...development like what is projected here, 20+ miles from any major urban center, absent a strong rail or bus transit connection, is rarely good news.

Very interesting interview, thanks for posting! She seems to be taking kind of an "on the fence" position about the streetcar, she favors an assessment on adjacent properties. But at the same time she is taking a position strongly in favor of light rail. I think it is important for people to understand, any light rail needs a downtown distribution system with frequent stops to be successful. If the rails being installed for the streetcar will support heavy rolling stock, if the turn radii and stops are compatible with longer trains, and if the overhead voltage is consistent with modern light rail standards, (and I believe all of these conditions are true) , then your streetcar system becomes a ready-made built-in downtown (hopefully uptown as well) distribution system for future light rail. So "either its light rail or it's a streetcar, but not both" isn't necessarily valid. I recall reading/studying about historic systems where higher speed interurban trains would come right into downtown areas and operate right along beside streetcars, and there are still cities around the world where higher speed suburban trains mix with streetcars on local streets (Zurich is one example I have seen).

The only credible danger that can be associated with streetcars is this the situation that occurs when you have older-style center street running (as opposed to curbside) with no passenger waiting/loading islands. When a streetcar stops in the center of the street, and the passenger must board from waiting at the curb, or disembark from the streetcar, all automobile traffic in the same direction MUST STOP as soon as the streetcar opens its doors. In Toronto this is a strictly enforced law and money has been spent educating the public about this. I believe the US has the same kind of older center-street running without islands in west Philadelphia and parts of San Francisco. The problem of de-boarding passengers being struck by autos is one reason most cities started switching to trolleybuses in the 1940's. As far as I know most modern day streetcar projects use curbside running or center-street loading islands to avoid this problem. If you are driving around, say...Toronto...think of it like this: treat a streetcar in traffic just like a school bus; same direction-when he opens his doors stop your car. More about this here: https://www.ttc.ca/Riding_the_TTC/Safety_and_Security/Streetcar_Watch.jsp

Interesting photos... how do they keep the barges moving in river conditions like this? In '77 the river froze solid and power plants were worried about their coal supply because all barge movements stopped. I am aware that the US and Canada have a Coast Guard cutter presence on the Great Lakes to at least keep a few shipping lanes like the Detroit River open, but I rarely see any USCG presence on the river, and definitely not ice breakers. Also, how do they keep the Ohio River locks functioning? It seems like the locks would necessarily contain some "trapped" standing water which one would think would freeze up before the flowing water does.

helmespc: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1g4u74scP08 The outdoor advertising is in that location for a very specific reason. You would like this 1942 video which explains the early placement of outdoor advertising. Streetcar lines were taken very seriously.

^Congrats to Cincinnati for its two-wire system, I always did like it even though I think the technical (electrical grounding) basis for it may have eventually been discredited. I believe Havana Cuba was the only other city worldwide to have a two wire streetcar system. Re. the hill on Clifton: the horizontal curvature would give modern streetcars trouble? Or, the vertical curve (slope) would give modern streetcars trouble, or both? Is it the length or weight of the modern car? I don't recall PCC's having those kinds of issues. BTW, when I rode a Cleveland Waterfront line Breda LRV up over the flyover in the flats, by Lake Erie, (flyover over the NS freight line) I was astounded and walked away believing the modern LRV could be designed to accomplish all kinds of amazing things! :)

Pittsburgh is interesting because of the similarity of the urban geography. Anybody out there ever ride the #52 Allentown line on a Port Authority Transit Siemens or CAF LRV? How does the grade on Arlington Ave. compare with the grade on Vine St. or Clifton in Cincinnati? PCC streetcars ascended the grade on Arlington Ave. for years, followed by LRV's, with seemingly few problems (as far as I know). Revenue service on the #52 Allentown (otherwise known as the brown line) was discontinued recently, but not because of the extreme grade. It was a package of service cuts due to budget problems. However, PAT transit left the infrastructure in place as a bypass in case the Mt. Washington tunnel is ever closed for any reason. So, Pittsburgh has both a tunnel and grade-level street running. If the tunnel were closed for any reason every southbound LRV would need to ascend Arlington Ave.

Anybody know if construction can continue uninterrupted throughout the winter? I would think that at some point frozen ground might force another temporary shutdown. Hope for a warm winter...the project needs to get back on schedule.

^We should be back in the Feds good graces now. We will have more/less the same federal DOT for another 3 years. Are TIGER grants still around? Are we still eligible? Can MLK interchange and uptown MLK streetcar spur/terminal be incorporated into the same grant and the same project.

^I should know this but I've been out of the planning profession for a few years; what does the city's land use plan show for the area around the proposed MLK interchange? Is it to be high-density residential/commercial Transit Oriented Development? If so, any chance of a single federal transportation grant for both uptown connector and MLK interchange that has these two components functionally and politically linked as more/less the same project? Seems like the Vine St. route up to the zoo could easily incorporate an east spur over to the point where MLK and I-71 intersect. Is there already a concept plan for development around the interchange? What about a streetcar terminal and park-'n-ride lot, surrounded with high density TOD?

^^The picture KJP posted was taken right near where I grew up, and I still remember what Lakewood looked like when Madison and Detroit Ave. had the streetcars. The streetcar pictured was designed by Peter Witt, and was considered revolutionary at the time because the center section is low-floor which increased accessibility and speeded up boarding and unloading. I think Boston was the first US. city to have a subway, I didn't post it but may have the original route map and pic., will look. Privately-owned interurban streetcars and trains originally ran through rural areas around many cities and gave rise to the first suburbs referred to as "streetcar suburbs." So streetcars did have hand in initiating the original suburbs, but these were far more dense than today's suburbs, which went viral as soon as autos were introduced...and went even more viral when Ike initiated the Federally funded interstate highway program. FHA had a hand in creating our suburbs and a lot of other Federal programs and agencies did too.

A quote from the last page of the above article, Cranley still wouldn't sign the ordinance. I think I saw earlier on this thread that the actual construction would have to wait until Christmas eve to get started again. I presume this is the reason.

This. Don't be overly confident this is the end, people. We've seen a ton of "ends" to this. I'm willing to stake my personal and professional opinion that this is the end of the streetcar construction debate. You've already seen significant voices in the community start to change their tune based on the enormous amount of money that would have been wasted had they stopped now. Stopping next year would be a non-starter. Truly the only challenge now will be to make it a successful project. I would love to believe that the sound I hear is the fat lady singing...but it might just be the sound of the opposition shifting gears into Plan B. Without handing him a playbook by posting specific strategies, remember there are still things the Mayor can try to do. We need to be ready.

I listened during most of the council meeting. They broadcast a tip about 1:30PM that Flynn would vote to restart. They kind of did melt down. They were going off on Flynn, PG, and Mann for being "flip flops." But most of the conversation was not about the streetcar. Mostly they were talking about somebody's colonoscopy in the crudest possible terms, and about how to avoid getting an OVI over the holiday season.

Lets hope the Feds know about this...there probably has to be a signed resolution transmitted ASAP.

here comes more national attention...this from the National Association of Railroad Passengers: http://narprail.org/news/narp-blog/2462-cincy-streetcar

^I don't live in Cincinnati either but we all have a stake in this. The decisions being made by the new mayor and council make little sense in terms of civic or fiscal responsibility, nor in terms of looking out for the local public interest. Is there a national-level agenda going on here to halt rail projects? The same thing happened in Wisconsin. Make it difficult for them to pull this off or the same thing could happen again elsewhere. What is happening in Cincinnati does seem to be story that could go national.

Am I missing something? Seems like this whole post-election debate over cancellation is lacking specifics about just how will the city come up with the money to pay the cancellation penalties and potential litigation costs. What's the plan? What would a shutdown budget look like as far as sources/uses of funds? Is there a possibility taxes will be raised or existing vital programs/services cut just for the sake of coming up with funds to pay the shutdown costs? One would hope this information would be on the table when the new mayor/council convene for the cancellation vote. :wtf:

^My understanding is that your CAF cars have heavy duty motors that put out enough torque to climb Vine St. hill. From what I know about KC it's pretty flat. Our equipment may well be overkill for a KC system...same goes for Detroit. And anybody know if there is a difference in gauge? I am aware of at least one North American city that uses a unique wide gauge.

9/29/13 Cincinnati Enquirer quoted Cranley (pp.B7) saying "I'll see if we can get out of the streetcar contract...the companies involved can do other projects to make up their lost money..." Hmmm...?? Lots of luck, and stay tuned.

...Uh, okay. Please elaborate on that point. This appears to be a written response to a written question (or at least something that was said in a closed interview) so it gets published with no opportunity to rebut his response. This is why we have debates, and I believe there is one coming up very soon. Somebody should ask him in a debate forum...specifically which parts of the streetcar budget can be reallocated for highway paving?

Well, Kasich promised to and then did kill the 3C Amtrak line immediately after taking office, to the cheers of his base. This had very little negative impact on him politically, despite it "costing" $600M of forgone federal funding that is now being used to improve some other state. It's clear that Cranley took notice of that. Anyone who cares about the future of rail transit in this region needs to go out and vote for Qualls in November. I don't want to find out if Cranley would actually follow through on his promises. We cannot afford to take that chance. If I lived in Cincinnati I would vote for Qualls in a minute. But what about Council after the Nov. election? Doesn't Cranley's ability to cancel the project depend upon getting his ducks in a row on a friendly Council? So...anybody know what the outlook is for the next Council?

Are some of the (4 I believe) anti-streetcar votes on council actually wavering...could they be flipped around to pro-streetcar once the cancellation penalties and costs are fully accounted for and understood?

A really good question! I was wondering about this too. I saw an earlier post that had some specifics but that was before the recent Messer contract was signed.

Nope, your opening day thing is about the biggest I know of in SW Ohio. OK guys, point well taken. For some reason I was envisioning the power lines running below the signals, but I was just driving out on state route 48 and noticed it looks like they try and keep everything more/less equal height. Actually, at this point I'm still far more concerned that Cranley might get in and cancel your project than I am about the possibility of someone getting toasted by a streetcar. Which brings to mind an interesting parallel. Back around 1990 we got a rogue RTA director up here who went on a crusade to junk our entire trolleybus system just AFTER we had spent gobs of federal bucks to replace the infrastructure. Anyway, we damn near threw the baby out with the bathwater when, finally, a few people in the know accurately accounted for and totaled all cancellation costs, paybacks etc. Once they went public with the true costs of junking the trolleys it became a no brainer...the Board voted to buy new trolleys and spend money on extensions. If Cranley gets in I can visualize sunk costs being a huge issue in your favor. Spending millions of taxpayer bucks and having absolutely nothing to show for it doesn't look good on any politician's resume.