Jeffery

Also, seeing as how I like old stuff, are there any surviving 19th century (pre 1900)neighborhoods in Akron or Youngstown? I don't seem to recall much that is really old in these towns from previous visits, but i might have missed them.

Thanks for your alls advice so far. This is good stuff. I will be able to just touch on some of these places...but its cool to see a lot of these places right downtown! This is going to be fun!!! Tell me about this Rubber City Clothing place? Is it sort of fetish wear? A question about Youngstown. Are there any good italian or other ethnic restaurants there. I know there is or was a big Italian community in the Mahoning Valley (and other ethnics, too), so was wondering about any local favorites for dinner?

As you all know I have been tracking the Ohio private sector employment numbers from the BLS. The numbers for this year, including the preliminaries for July, pretty much are "normal" in that the month-to-month increases and seasonal patterns seem to be tracking pretty close the numbers from the mid to late 2000s. There is always a seasonal drop that happens in the last quarter & first quarter, and this was a normal drop for 2009-2010. However the decline was so steep in 2008 and the end-of-year seasonal drop between 2008 & 2009 was off the cliff. Then the numbers did a weak small recovery in the spring but then continued to decline in summer and fall of 2009 (but at a much shallower slope than in 2008, which was a real slide before going off the cliff). So even with the Ohio private sector economy generating jobs at a relatively normal pattern so far this year it's not enough to get us out of the deep hole in terms of lost employment or lost positions. If we go into a double-dip recession, even a shallow one, this could drop the numbers even more....which will add to the deficit even more because entitlements will kick in for even more unemployed people. The situation could get dire. But so far the employment numbers are not showing a weakening (keeping in mind this is a lagging indicator).

What I recall of downtown Youngstown was it was pretty compact, meaning there was a cluster of fairly tall buildings (some pretty good designs, too) around that central square. Flint has suprising (to me) low-density feel from these pix, since I thought it was a fairly large city. Maybe I misread the place.

Thanks for the advice so far. This is great stuff! BTW, what is the name of that restaurant Chrissi Hind owns. I am certainly going to try that place. That Lemon Grove sounds great. Do they really open at 4 PM daily? That's amazing that they are open on Sundays, which is a tough time to find things open here in Dayton.

I will be in NE Ohio for the "Reclaiming Vacant Properties" conference, which is in Cleveland in October. I will be spending most of the week in Cleveland (at the hotel @ Terminal Tower). However, I will have some downtime around this conference and will be staying one or two nights in Akron, intending to explore Akron a bit (since I don't know too much about the place) and also a jaunt over to Youngstown. I will be staying in downtown Akron (I think there is still a hotel in that Cascade Center complex?), so would like some advice about the downtown area first, but also for the city in general: 1. Local coffee shops. I've become a fan of coffee culture through my frequent visits to Louisville and Cincinnati and want to partake of some of this in Akron and Youngstown. Recommend a few to me that are not Starbucks. 2. Restaurants. Recommend some independent local restaurants, preferably ones that source locally and are more into greens..not necessarily vegitarian, but more novelle cuisne or organic, etc) 3. Live music. I like original local bans, indy/alt rock. Or acoustic things, singer/songwriter, folk, bluegrass, etc. Give me a few good venues for this kind of music. 4. Interesting neighborhoods & "heritage tourism". Recommend some local history musuems, landmarks, and areas where there is some gentrification/restoration/adaptive re-use. I'm also interested if they have done some historic interpretations/exhibits on the canal that went through there. I think they have or are planning to, but not sure. 5. Urban ag and local food. Are there any local farmers markets in Akron and local examples of urban gardening/urban agriculture? Youngstown I've already visited Youngstown years ago to see the steel museum, but am planning a return visit. Anything else to see there, particularly anything relating to urban ag, shrinking cities things (neighborhood decommissioning, urban ag experiments, etc), and also some food/drink recommendations (like old ethnic restaurants, coffee shops like I asked about above for Akron, etc).

Neat to see Flint has abandoned big box retail like Dayton (actually those neighborhood shots in the end do look a bit like Dayton). Though I have to say downtown Flint looks somewhat blah. I was expecting it to seem larger for some reason (Youngstown looks more impressive, actually). That art deco skyscraper looks like a shorter version of the Hulman Building here in Dayton.

No more Louisville stuff. Yes, thanks. I recall seeing a map somewhere showing commuters by Kentucky county to the core counties of the Cincy MSA (Hamiton, Campbell, and Kenton), and noticed this "commuter shed" extends beyond the MSA counties. So Cincinnati's economic force-field covers a wide area of north-central Kentucky. This influence might go back pretty far. If anyone here recalls Ed McClanahans humorous novella from back in the 1980s, the Natural Man, it was set in this area (probably a fictionalized Brooksville KY), and Cincinnati plays a role as a distant force or influence (the protaganist..the"natural man" of the title... comes from an ophanage in Cincy).

^ depends on "near". About the closest is probably the northern reaches of Limerick and Old Louisville. Here's an example from Limerick.

Americas' 10 Dying Cities ...from a list developed by MIT of the 150 "Forgotten Cities". Researchers at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology did a study of what they described as America's 150 forgotten cities. The municipalities on their list were medium-sized and ranked by measurements that included poverty. The reason for their demise largely matched the cities on the 24/7 Wall St. list. The MIT research work goes beyond a mere list of statistics and points out reasons why some of these cities will never recover. In almost every case, tax bases have disappeared, which has undermined the ability of local governments to spend money on revitalization. Abandoned areas of these cities have high crime rates, which not only keeps people from relocating to these areas but is actually an incentive for them to move away. This in turn, leads to the image of these cities as desolate urbanscapes. The top 10, including the usual suspects, but with some some unexpected adds. One Ohio city makes this particular top 10 list (but it would be interesting to see the other cities MIT came up with...) 1. Buffalo 2. Flint 3. Hartford 4. Cleveland 5. New Orleans 6. Detroit 7. Albany 8. Atlantic City 9. Allentown 10. Galveston

Here is a look at the economic interaction between Cleveland and Akron: A Closer Look at Akron I suspect the northern parts of Summit County might be more identified with Cleveland since it seems to be a bleed-over of Cleveland suburbia (perhaps this does not extend as far south as Hudson, or the perception of Hudsonians is "we're not Cleveland" in a sort of rejection of that identity?). Interesting that Canton/Massillon is so seperate. I think they share an airport with Akron? I think Canton has its own TV stations, though (???) which might make it more seperate in some ways. When I was up there in my "Great Ohio Safari of 2004" it didn't seem there was too much development between the two cities (Akron and Canton), though I didn't explore the area that thoroughly. I did drive surface streets and roads between Akron and Cleveland, though, and one can sense how these areas are growing together. Twinsburg seemed pretty suburban. Hudson was "nice". Akron is probably the least discussed major urban center on this board, so I like that this thread is going on.

I don't know if it was. I am guessing. Since the distance looks fairly long for a horse car (but maybe not?).

Hmmm...urban vacations? Not sure about that. Sure, us urban geeks like "getting away from it all"...to another city! But I always thought this meant to a rural or natural setting like a state resort park, for most of the population. Even so what would make Columbus a weekend destination spot? And is this the purpose of urban branding? To market a place for leisure travel?

Not sure where these are are but the metro area really starts to pick up around Piqua, then after Troy you really are in exuburbia, with villages like Tipp City becoming the cores for suburban development and a lot of ribbon development along country roads. On the Kentucky side I'm always astounded to see the subdivisions and developement as far south as the I-70/I-75 split (and there might be isolated development beyond that deeper in KY). This is a bit less evident on US 40, though, since development picks up closer in inside of Boone County. So its sort of a linear developement along the I-75 axis...

Its a good marketing concept, to push the area as a large urban region.

I always thought downtown Fort Wayne was a good model for Dayton since they cleared out so much of the old junk, and also put in a lot of landscaping to fill some of the empty spaces (like the park in front of the courthouse, and the conservatory near the convention center). So what's left is actually in good shape and apparently economically viable. I'd bet downtown Ft Wayne has a lower vacancy rate than Dayton.

Im just commenting on the current path, which involves that controlling board. Since this 3C thing has been bouncing around since the early 1980s I'm skeptical the political will is there. If this does happen in the future Ohio will be a late adopter. Right now the current approach and the political realities (at minimum GOP control of the lower house and state-level GOP leadership committment to oppose rail) make this iteration pretty dead.

This is quite good news. I was thinking this adaptive-re-use downtown housing thing was pretty dead, given the difficulties getting the Merc underway. A bit of history: This building was built in two stages, which is why there is a lightwell court inside. It was intially planned as a spec industrial loft space by the same industrialist/real estate entrepeneur who build the Beaver Power Building, but the rapid growth of Delco meant that Delco became the sole tenant. This is the building that once had a tunnel under 1st Street to that other (red brick & water tower) Delco buidling across the street.

That type of context-sensitive infill on Brown is probably what should be going up at the Frank Z site (or something similar to it). Maybe not as heavily retailed (since that building seems to have problems leasing), but with at least retail space to anchor corners. There are good generic models from the 1920s and earlier for urban housing on busy streets that does not necessarily have retail on the ground floor.

^ I think this was the area I explored in this post, and was curious about, given the age of some of the buildings on High Street. Old North Columbus really is old. At least the plat is. It might even predate OSU, as it shows up on old county atlases from the 1870s or so. The place was next to a factory of some sort (pipe factory?) and was connnected to Columbus proper by either a steam dummy or horse car, which ran north to "North Columbus" (but not on High Street!) @@@ The Short North is more efficient for a certain kind of "lifestyle consumption" tourism since its a strip of retail/food/drink that you can quickly explore. German Village is more a "heritage tourism" type of destination as one would be exploring this old neighborhood and the consumption opportunities are more incidental. There are places akin to German Village elsewhere, at various scales. Old Louisville is one. Tremont and Lockerbie Square are others. But the Short North is somewhat unique in Ohio given the density and length of of the strip and the way it's anchored by the Arena District/North Market at one end...and...perhaps in the future...by OSU's campus strip at the other. It's more akin to Bardstown Road in Louisville (closest regional comparison). I'm not sure how this works into a branding theme, though. Columbus isn't really a tourist destination, though it could be a convention one (partly by virtue of being the capital, centrally located in Ohio) for state-level conventions of various sorts.

Boy, is this is a cliche or what? ....as I mentioned about the big ticket items are public safety and education. Tough sh!t if you can't address that.

There's an "Old North Columbus"? Like "Old North Dayton"? As for German Village its not really a tourist spot as the retail/dining/drinking is scattered about (like that German Restuarant hidden back in the neighborhood, or the corner store places). Short North works as you can walk up and down High Street. In German Village these places tend to individual destinations. In Louisville the tourist people push really three areas...Frankfort Avenue, Bardstown Road, and now NuLu (which is sort of new) and also Old Louisville a bit. German Village is more lke Old Louisville as the destinations (aside from looking at old houses) are scattered in the neighborhood as individual spots, not part of a district or strip.

^ They like small government because it means more local control. Or something.

This thread reminds me of yet another reason Dayton sucks. Too many chain/franchise things dominate the scene, and BBQ is big here (can't stand BBQ).

From what I see of local budgets here in the Dayton region the big annual expenses are public safety (police and fire) and education, mainly the payroll expenses (wages and benefits). The other stuff is pretty minor in comparsion (unless you are talking about capital expenditures). Utilities (water and sewer) are usually operated as self-sustaining enterprise funds. One thing I like about public finance in this area is that expenditures are somewhat line-item funded via tax levys, so the citizens have some control over earmarking where their money goes. Things that have broad-based support, like parks and libraries, usually see their levys pass. The thing don't like is that these levys are property-tax based. I think if a public benefit is widely distributed it should be based on income tax. This introduces progressivity (taxes are based on ability to pay) and removes the free-rider issue of renters not directly paying taxes for the services they use.