Jeffery

....you've never had that before??? (and what is e-block? It looks like 4th Street Live, but more city)

Kentucky is 49, and lookee there, Misssissppi isn't 50.

Stockton is Lima or Mansfield with palm trees.

I always said that RTA hub was a potential niche market waiting to be tapped.

^ Wow, the Trib finally discovered suburban skyscrapers in Chicagoland. I think their graphic must only be showing offices since I know there are a lot of high rise apartments and condos out in suburbia, particularly in those old railroad suburbs, even as far west as Wheaton, way out in DuPage County (which I guess isn’t so far out anymore). There’s also a lot of offices between the 7 and 12 stories out in the burbs, including one in Oak Park, from the 1950s or 60s (developed by the Mackle Brothers, who developed Marco Island in Florida). One of the first suburban high rises in the Western Suburbs was in Oak Brook, actually integrated right into the Oak Brook shopping mall, opening on to the central court (Oak Brook used to be an outdoor mall). Increasing density via skyscrapers makes a lot of sense for those old railroad suburb downtowns, since they usually are built around Metra stations; commuting by train and walking to work from the station to a suburban high rise is quite do-able.

I'm not sure but I think the original idea behind public housing was slum clearance and provision of better housing (than slums) to lower-income groups. The early projects that i know about (from the 1930s/40s ), in Louisville and Chicago, were in slum areas that were cleared for housing. They also didn't necessarily have all totally poor/welfare people, but lower income "working poor"...people with jobs but lower income jobs, sort of like public housing in Germany and maybe the UK.

For radio I listened to WOXY, which had the southern Dayton area covered. I picked up on what was going on in Cincy back in the day from that station. They would cover Dayton stuff, and played GBV, a Dayton band. I don't listen to commercial radio, but sort of wish WNKU would beef up their signal or get a northern transponder so I can pick them up here in Centerville.

His birthday was last week and VD this weekend. Not a good time for me since we celeberated this. I was at the drugstore today and saw the candy, I'd get him choloclates as a suprise sometime, not just for Valentines, just a thing to do... ...stuff like that. Here in Dayton, back in our early days, I'd be taking the bus and would buy some champaign and one of those heart-shaped chocolate boxes at Lazarus/Rikes for VD....take it home to him on the bus. You should, really. Do not hesitate or postpone. There are things I wish I had done with him, but put off. And things I'm glad I did do with him, thinking to seize the day. I knew he had AIDS, knew it going into this, so I was conscious that this was all on borrowed time, so to speak. It turned out to be a lot of borrowed time, and I grew complacent. so we should have done more together... I think it is the little things like this, like I wrote about, that stay, things we remember. Reminds me of that old Simon & Garfunkle tune: Time it was, and what a time it was, it was/ A time of innocence/ A time of confidences/ Long ago, it must be/ I have a photograph/ Preserve your memories/ They're all that's left you

I was thinking the Miami Valley Conservancy District (watershed-based flood control system) would be a first, except I think this might be more engineering than planning.

And, from the early 1960s, a few other ways of defining Dayton’s sphere of influence …back then it seems Clinton County had some connection with the Dayton.

Cin-Day according to Cox Media: The Southwest Ohio Region First the two big media markets. Newspaper markets for Butler/Warren (two dailys plus a few weeklies. This is the suburban newspaper market, like the Voice papers here in Dayton. , The Dayton media market, where we see the DDN’s range dip down into northern and central Warren County DMA= Designated Market Area (from Nielsen, I think). NDM= Newspaper Designated Market RTZ= Retail Trade Zone I guess the interesting thing is that Cox apparently controls a lot of the secondary papers in the area, including the two local dailys. …and the Dayton market bleeds over into Richmond, Indiana.

I'd like to know what suburbs are 100 miles from downtown Sacto.

i know in my personal case one set of grandparents lived in depression/wartime Germany of the Nazi era and they had one kid. The other set married in Depression-era Chicago and had two kids. So difficult/hard times might have played a role in having small families, esp since they came from larger families.

Or you could see more household formation via divorces and seperations.

The local media (ie DDN) reports on this on occasion, as has been noted. But i agree with ColDayMan that there isnt much benefit seen here...I dont see it. Dayton becomes the new Tacoma? Do you think there'd be much interaction? Do you think people from Cincy would do things in Dayton. Go to festivals, shows, etc? I could see some benefits in the performing arts and theatre scenes if the SOBs would maybe coordinate their schedules and cross-promote, to get culture vultures travelling to both dwtwn Cincy and dwntwn Dayton for prefomances. This would mean breaking down walls of provincialism..but it could make for a vibrant arts scene.

I think 3-C is using the old "Air Line" route, which is on the east side of the river (through downtown West Carrollton and Miamisburg), crosses the river to bypass Franklin, and across the river again through downtown Middletown. But it veers off there and heads directly south toward Cincy, thus through that booming "West Chester" edge city area. Thats why I could see a good station location at, say, Tylersville Road. To do high density commuter rail together with long distance passenger and heavy freight you'd need something like the old Burlington Route "racetrack" between Chicago and Aurora, highly engineered, three tracks, and with advanced signals and traffic control.

^ Depends on how you define "area". And that is a very good question.

I'll tell you guys this. If they build 3C to CUT I'm not going to use it to Cincy. It would still be easier to drive downtown or Findlay market area and do what I need to do there. In fact the Streetcar would be used by me instead of 3C since I could see parking the Findlay Market area and taking it downtown and back, finishing up shopping at Findlay, or taking it up to the UC area and shopping there. CUT is too out of the way to make it realistic. Id have to take a bus or cab to get to where I want to go, or to a hotel. This would be a contrast to, say, the Columbus solution, where the station is in the heart of a walkable destination area. I could take the train to Col, and walk north or south on High, even walk to the Hampton Inn of Hyatt if I want to stay overnight.

Speaking for myself, I prefer having Cincy so close. That's one reason I live on the Cincy side of Montgomery County, makes for a shorter trip, though the traffic has been getting heavy (as was noted on the article on I-75).

Springfield is still in Dayton's media market, though I think it might be developing closer connections to Columbus.

^ Renn likes those BEA EAs since they make Indy look good, since the Indianapolis' EA is huge, taking up most of central Indiana. I think the one for Dayton is suspect since it takes in Lima and counties north and west of it. I have a hard time seeing Bluffton and Van Wert county within Daytons' sphere of influence. And Lima sort of has its own thing going on. The numbers are interesting, though, since it the BEA gives stats on the farm economy for the EAs, For Dayton this is impressive though we don't think of it much....in the billions. Get Midwest with the Dayton Region. @@@@ BTW, the comments are a hoot at that Enquirer story. I liked this one: Who Dey? Cin-Day!

Yes, please share! I am interested in this area too, but can't find much on it.

I actually bought the Enquirer today to read that article, or set of articles. For something purporting to being about a bi-polar metro region the Cincy-centric POV came through on the I-75 sidebar, discussing the interchange improvments and road widenings and totally omitting the Austin Road interchange and related development...becuase I guess it wasn't in Bulter or Warren County. West Chester would be the geographic center of this new metro area, it seems. Im wondering if that should be the 3-C stop, not Sharonville, if its become the big new economic center. The 3-C route goes right through it. Thinking big on this a high speed rail line between Cicny airport, dwtwn Cincy, and Dayton would really complement this growth trend, especially if one could add more stops due to high operating speeds between stations.

A long answer to the short question: “Why isn’t Louisville in a valley?”, using the question as an excuse to digress on the regional landscape, the setting for Louisville, or sort of a “Louisville, the Architecture of the Four Ecologies” (apologies to Reyner Banham). Louisville is at the intersection of two plateaus of the Interior Low Plateaus physiographic region and the glaciated flatlands of the Midwest. One of the plateaus, the Bluegrass, is a upward swelling of the earths crust, rising east of Louisville to reach elevations of over 1000 feet around Lexington. The other to the south and west forms a high escarpment that is called Muldraughs Hill in Kentucky and various names in Indiana. Locally it’s called Floyds Knobs, the Indiana Knobs, Sliver Hills (in New Albany), etc. The low spot between the western escarpment and the rise of the Bluegrass forms a trough followed by the glaciers and glacial outwash, which formed a broad plain, across which flows the modern Ohio River. This geological map and section gives the regional picture, showing the limits of the ice from the three ice ages, and the western escarpment. The rise of land to the east shows in the cross section below the map. The escarpment breaks up into isolated belts of hills and individual outriders. These are called knobs (in Kentucky, more formally, The Knobs). Around Louisville these are sometimes used as parkland or forest preserves. The following ariel shows the wooded escarpment running north south, partially set aside as forest preserves and parks, and partially used as a wilderness maneuver area for Fort Knox, particularly the rugged country approaching Muldraughs Hill. A few other prominent features are labeled, like the towns of Madison and Carrollton, and the Borden Valley in southern Indiana penetrating into the western plateau (a route followed by an early Indiana railroad). A close up map and cross sections of the area immediately around Louisville, providing an excellent diagram of the variety of local landscapes, which are sort of recognized by the average person, though people don’t use the geological terms on this map. One can see how Ohio River breaks out of its valley and flows across the outwash plain, then south for +/- 25 miles along the foot of the western escarpment until breaking through around West Point, were it’s joined by the Salt River. An aerial of roughly the same area covered in the map. …with Iroquois Park and the Jefferson Memorial Forest noted (examples of knob country being set aside as parkland). Next, zooming in, this map is intended to show the bedrock contours (part of a study on the formation of the Falls of the Ohio), which you see in light gray. These are underground, not visible on the surface. But the map also shows the local landscape types, too. I’ve added labels to some features/places that would be recognized by the locals, such as the Highlands and Crescent Hill (the start of the upslope of the Bluegrass region), the “Wet Woods” (an old lake bed), the some prominent isolated outriders of the Knobs (Kenwood Hill, Finley Hill), etc. The sections for the map, with labels for the Highlands and Wet Woods added by me. A few quick words on the ‘Wet Woods’. This is a historic name and it’s not really used by the locals. They recognize this as place or landscape, though; I’ve heard it called “the muck”, or “crawdad country”. It’s one of the drearier landscapes of the metro area, filled with ugly urban sprawl, industrial use, the airport, and a huge landfill. I-65 passes through it on the way to Nashville. It used to be a lake from the ice age. There is a layer of hardpan below the surface preventing drainage, and since the land is nearly dead flat, it remained swampy and wet, like big Ohio Valley version of the Okeefenokee. A remnant of the ice age lake survived into to historic times, called Oldham’s Pond, a fairly large body of standing water in the center of this area. The land was sparsely settled and nearly impassable, becoming a haven for freed slaves, charcoal burners, moon shiners, and outlaws But it was drained, leaving a uniform landscape of forests, long strait drainage ditches, and dead flat open land (before sprawl took over) [ ” Petersburg was settled by a freed slave, Eliza Curtis Hundley Tevis (also spelled Tives, Tivis, Travis and Tivas in various records), in the 1820s or '30s. Petersburg was then known as the Wet Woods, a vast swamp thought to be uninhabitable. It was the only land in the area that whites would sell to blacks.” The Knobs Now we will take a closer look at things in the old city of Louisville. The first are the Knobs, specifically two outriders that used to be called Burnt Knob and Coxes Knob, but are now known as Iroquois Park and Kenwood Hill. One is a park, one of the last designed by Fredrick Law Olmstead, the other was developed as a neighborhood. Iroquois Park is mostly a big forest preserve with an open prairie on the top flat (knobs sometimes have flats on top since they are pieces of plateau), but the popular feature here are the overlooks …including one looking north over Churchill Downs to the downtown skyline. For our purposes the one to the south is more instructive, as one can see yet another outrider, Finley Hill, in the foreground, and, in the blue distance, the belt of rugged wooded knob country of the Jefferson Memorial Forest. To the west, one can see the western plateau escarpment, the Indiana Knobs, across the broad outwash plain. Kenwood Hill was developed, on the higher slopes, with very narrow roads and houses tucked away on steep lots …an early feature was summer cabins for Louisvillians (a local tradition before WWII was to move out to the countryside during high summer to escape the city, since Louisville has a very uncomfortable summer climate). These are now the Little Loomhouse, a craft center… ….with cultural significance since “Happy Birthday” (the song) was written here. And another view through the trees across to more knob country, this time to Red Stone Hill, from the street to the top of Kenwood Hill. Floodplain Edge There is a gap between The Knobs and the higher country starting at Germantown and the Highlands. This gap isn’t really flat since a noticeable and sometimes sharp low rise in the land runs roughly east-west across it. The modern I-264 (Watterson Expressway) follows it as it cuts across the South End. This is probably the edge of the Ohio River floodplain, or maybe the outwash plain from the last glaciations. The West End Floodplain & Natural Levee Now we move north into the broad flatlands of the floodplain. The natural features of the landscape have been obscured by urban growth, but a deliciously detailed map of the Civil War fortifications fortunately survives, illustrating the character of the landscape surrounding Louisville as of the 1860s. Using this as a base map a quick diagram of the drainage system shows various streams and sloughs in the West End (including some inferred courses) and the Beargrass Creek system weaving its way through the steeper slopes and hills of the East End. Zooming in on the countryside that would become the West End, one can see various now-gone streams and watercourses… The red boxes are shown below in the 1930s: Before and after of a stream heading east from the Shawnee Park area…. …and the stream system that veined the Parkland neighborhood as ghostly contours under the street grid. A map of the 1937 flood shows areas above water as crosshatching, and one can see a string of high ground following the Ohio as it makes its big bend as it turns south. This might be a natural levee akin to the one New Orleans sits on (though there is no backswamp here). On this map I tint it red to pop it out more This natural levee was incorporated into the man-made levee, the floodwall and levee system that now protects the city. Some examples along Northwestern Parkway (which connects Portland to Shawnee Park, pretty much following this natural levee). Here, the man made levee is to the right, as a low berm …houses on the natural levee…. …and a low floodgate, where the man-made levee sits on the natural one, giving a little more protection just in case… The East End Highlands The flood map clearly shows the higher country on the east end of the city, separated by the flooded bottoms of the Beargrass Creek branches. Germantown has more of a “Dayton” hilliness, long rolling slopes, while the others have steeper hills, particularly as one gets into the Beargrass creek valleys and along the Ohio as one heads east (and the land rises) Some of the neighborhoods have names that indicate the topography, like Irish Hill, Crescent Hill, the catch-all name “The Highlands”, etc… The Civil War map shows a system of little valleys and slopes leading to the larger valleys of the Beargrass forks. Turnpikes either follow the high ground between the Beargrass valleys, or follow the valley floors. A modern topo of the Germantown area, with the inset showing the landscape of sloping streets and land, with the grid shifts here giving a somewhat picturesque character to the place. The inset is keyed to the map via the factory building, visible in the background. Zooming in on the Civil War era landscape of The Highlands, making the little side valleys and hollows visible. Some of these were incorporated into the park system, like the modern Tyler Park and Cherokee Parkway. The same area in modern times (but before I-64), with parks and cemeteries tinted (mostly Cave Hill cemetery and Cherokee Park, another of the “Olmstead” parks. Parks, cemeteries, golf courses, institutional uses, and occasionally estates follow the Beargrass valleys creating greenbelts between Germantown, The Highlands, and Crescent Hill/Clifton. Residential development in the Highlands was mostly a late 19th (after 1883) and early 20th century thing, so in some cases it is more sensitive to topography, incorporating the steeper slopes that abound in this part of the city The three big Olmstead parks were developed around landscape themes. Iroquois is the knobs, Shawnee is the floodplain landscape, and Cherokee the creek bottoms and hills of the Bluegrass. A landscape architecture of the three ecologies. Here is a view over the Beargrass Creek valley from a Cherokee Park overlook, showing the low wooded hills across the valley. The parks where built in suburban areas at the time, and the city grew around the parks. In the case of Cherokee the build-out was mostly before WWII, so the park becomes this green island surrounded by older neighborhoods and estates, but you’d never know it in the valley bottom since the wooded hills hide the city. Following a progression from this somewhat flat part of The Highlands (Douglas Boulevard): Dropping down a side valley into Cherokee Park, on a road that is at first flanked by houses, then estates, and finally the park itself and the valley floor: The valley floor following Beargrass Creek …which sometimes floods River City After all this not much on the central feature of the city, the Ohio River. The river is a presence in various ways, one is the bridges being visible from the edge of the Highlands, just as one drops down to the floodplain, due to their crossing the river at angles to the viewer. An example from Irish Hill …and another from Crescent Hill or Clifton… …and, for the finale, all the bridges in one image: The next thread header will be dedicated to the river. Get ready for a very in-depth look at the original raison d’etre for Louisville; the Falls of the Ohio

^ They incorporated the works from either that or an earlier hydraulic system into that art museum/convention center downtown. You can see the dam right from the main lobby space in the center. Pretty cool concept.