Michael L. Redmond

agreed but let me throw in one more thing. I am an advocate of choice. And even after everything I have said and truly believe on the subject, neither my wife nor myself have chosen to have a conceal and carry(watch, now I will get robbed) and most people do not, but I support others right to do so.

One more analogy comes to mind. How many people got in fights in high school? I never did, not once. I weighed approx 215lbs my senior year, and everyone seemed so nice. Why? well I was ill tempered to boot, but who in there right mind picks on the big kid? Criminals are generally cowards and opportunist, the bullies of the neighborhood. I would like to see that playing field evened out a bit for the little guy, give him a chance. He will probably be picked on still, but if it is just one or two times less than he otherwise would have been, in the grown up world, this could be the difference between life and death.

Remeber Cramer, I said that nothing will stop crime (and I meant to say completely) but we can deter. Did it deter this kid, no, has it detered others, we do not know. How many crimes have not happened? Hard to say. Let me give another piece of info that I probably should have said above about this case. The armed robber was walking down Rice st and passed the victims while still in there car in front of a set of steps. One of the victims was especially concerned about this person as he walked by. Both victims get out of the car and met face to face with the criminal at the top of the stairs, this is not where the crime occured. Now a couple of things could have happened at this point. Alarms were raised about this person, call in women's intuition. One victim said to the criminal, you go down the steps first (being polite) the criminal said no, you go. An armed victim at this point would have been prepared to take action if necessary, the unarmed victim is now at the mercy of the criminal. They were half way down the steps, out of site of the street, unarmed, and one breath away from a crime ranging from a robbery, rape, or murder. In many ways they were lucky that it was a robbery, but that was not there choice. And choice is what I would like for myself and everyone else to have. The choice to carry or not (they chose not) and the choice to defend myself or not (the first choice negated the second). He may have reacted differently at the top of those steps and this may have been avoided had he been armed, we will never know.

Correct me if I am wrong but this is already illegal to do unless there is an additional threat, ie. I am making fun of you while holding a knife to your throat. I think if I shot a person while they were only keying my car, I probably would face jail time. What about the inverse of this argument, where do things get out of hand to the "criminal"? At what point do they say I can steal, rape, kill, etc without consequences (many already believe that they can avoid the police or beat it at trial and they usually are correct)? Nothing will stop crime, but we can place deterents out there. I know when I see someone dealing drugs on my street and I want to approach him and run him off, the first words out of my wife's mouth is "don't, he probably has a gun" should the same thought not go through their minds before committing a crime?

As long as no one minds we are discussing them here and not in Cincinnati crime discussion. But I think I can tie it into regaining population so here goes. Crime is going down in OTR because of what I call a perfect storm of events. No one event is necessarily any more important than the other. First, District one and the Vortex Unit. A zero tollerance policy that includes not only cracking down on crime but at the same time working with the city on code enforcement. The sheriffs Dept patrols has served to beef up this force and while only 19 are partrolling, somehow it is hard to turn a corner and not see one. Third, community envolvement in two ways--one through the sector groups of getting information directly to the police on a monthly basis of crime hotspots, and two, Citizens on Patrol who both serve to put an additional presence on the streets while at the same time aiding the city in quality of life and safety issues such as burned out lights, dump sites, open buildings etc. And Fourth, and most lacking throughout our neighborhoods history is development. We can clean up the crime for a short time but if conditions do not change we have only created a vacuum for crime to fill right back in. Even with all of this, we still have a large hurtle to cross in both downtown and OTR, that is perception. We could have crime go to zero, but unless we can convince people to revisit there city and see it with their own eyes, our growth will come, but very slowly. OTR's one crime is equal to 10 in Hyde Park because the first thing that happens here is reinforcement to that negative perception, Hyde Park is dismissed as an anomaly. It will be a long time before we can get to the point that we are judged the same as other communities and the reality is that some people will never be convinced because they will never give us a chance. We have to live with this and focus on the open minded, they are the ones we want living beside us to begin with.

I have been following along quietly in this discussion (and it is a good one by the way) but I am going to have to side with Cris on this one. I am heavily involved in safety issues in what has traditionally been one of the most dangerous parts of Cincinnati, OTR, (which crime is down significantly by the way). Let me give you a real life example that, in my mind, proves that if we outlaw handguns then only outlaws will have handguns. Armed robbery, Mulberry Street, 3 months ago. 15 year old male, armed with a handgun holds up two residents at gunpoint and robs them. The 15 year old, who should not have a handgun to begin with, let alone in public, let alone use it in a robbery, plus he had 13 prior felonies on his juvenial record. He was not supposed to posses or use this weapon. It was against the law. He even stated to them that if they called the police he would return and kill them both. The two law abiding victims in the case, although choosing not to exercise their right to conceal and carry, would have followed the law if it stated that they could not choose to defend themselves by getting a c/c license. No one was more scared in the following days to return to their own home than this couple. Would you be willing to tell them that they should not be able to defend themselves of future attacks like this by carrying a licensed handgun? If so, I will give you their names, because they are considering it--try and talk them out of it.

Upon further review by friends and colleagues, the post I just erased was just wrong :roll:

:wink: Well this makes me feel better, Max is happy again! Conceal and carry? hummm, novel idea, I guess I could just shoot them, never thought of that (actually I have but I need to deny any premeditation to the courts :wink:) We are such good friends with Robin and Kerry that we handle things via phone and email. Speaking of not seeing a sector listed, how bout them Grants KCB awarded; Clifton Heights Bellevue Park project Price Hill Will West McMicken Improvement Association Ludlow Band Boosters College Hill Business Association West End Business Association Silverton Sweet Pea Society Garden Club Mt. Airy/Northside project (Cindee Walsh) Roselawn Community Council (Robert Ingberg) Mulberry Street Sector Group Hyde Park Residents Lewisburg Neighborhood Association Northside Gardeners Row Hartwell Improvement Association They must not have mentioned that at the town hall meeting huh :wink2:

I agree, the perpetrator of the armed robbery I have been speaking of was 15 and had 11 prior felonies, now he has 12 and will be out in a year or so. I would love to have the whole criminal justice system overhauled, but do we just sit back and do nothing in the meantime?

I was thinking East Clifton. There are a difference between the steps as well. Some are wide open, or at least can be with some clearing of lots. Others are sandwiched between buildings and there is nothing we can do about that. Also keep in mind that the nature of a step is to fall away from the street so it automatically impairs visibility if no side view is possible. As I said before, I welcome a solution. At this point, we simply know there is a problem, we have proposed answers, but not doing anything is not one of them.

Huste Alley?

You sound so angry. Max, I honestly thought that you would be happy after reading my above post. "It's funny but all the times I have been on those EVIL steps I have never seen an illegal activity." Well if it is a case of not believing me, I can either have you speak directly to the people who have been a victim of aggrevated armed robbery or you could just pull the police report yourself. But once again, I ask you read what I said above, we are taking measures now to help stop some of the problems that we absolutely are seeing on Sharpe, Frintz, and 29 Steps that at this time, do not include closure. :-D And try to be happier, you will live longer.

Well....he helped at least aquire the land that Jerry Hunderlaw's houses are on, on Mulberry (the 5 new on the north side, 126-134 Mulberry) and I am not necessarily saying that he is the builder but he and others have the land to be developed and according to John Coulter, he is involved as well. John lives on Dorsey (great guy) he has done at least the two that are between Dorsey and Goethe and he has been in an advisory role to another rehab that is underway on Dorsey as well as consulting with my wife and I on our house on Mulberry. I put a call out to Joe Gorman last night so I am just waiting for a call back. I believe his plans are done and he is about ready to go but I will find out more.

Well this is why I have tried to lay out my point on here. I believe in our case we can solve the problem without step closure, even a temporary one. Each circumstance is different and I know that if we were to propose a step closure now, unfair parallels would be drawn but hopefully in our case this will be a mute point. I gave this paragraph some thought and I agree with you that varying weights should be given to all who are affected by something like this. The only part I have trouble with is the pre-existing condition. The steps themeselves are pre-existing, no doubt about it, but the problems that are now being attributed to the steps perhaps were not. Conditions change, and so must your approach to crime prevention. Now you can certainly argue that their approach is flawed, and only time will tell I suppose in the Collins case, but it is a response vs none. Now I say none, does anyone know if any alternatives were presented in leu of closing the steps?

You have done a tremendous job! My wife and I were just up there again yesterday and it is looking fantastic. As for other dev. on Goethe, the only thing I know of active in the pipeline at this moment is Gorman's project. I heard just the other day that he has proposed 11 new homes, and do not quote me on this, it is second hand info but I need to talk to Joe this week so I will pick his brain. Keep checking on here, as I get more info, I will post it.

I do not know what the line was for those particular steps, for some it obviously was car breakins. I personally have a higher tolerance I guess and this alone would not have been enough for me to push for closure, and perhaps a single incident would not be enough for me to push any response. But I have to admit, I do not know what all has happened on Keys Crescent, I had heard of the breakins, not the frequency and nothing beyond that. I believe in phased but immediate responses to such crimes. But how we phase it is dependent on the severity and the frequency of the crime. I do not know about Collins, but taking it at face value, I would have tried other measures but I would not stop implementing new, stepped up measures if the first did not prevent further crimes. I would not stop at anything, no limit, closure or flat out removal. But as I said above, the decision should be up to the ones who are most immediatly affected by the problem, and generally this is the adjacent property owners. I gave the instance of the 29 steps above, but ultimatly I feel that it is up to 29 and 31 Mulberry (and even out further) who ultimatly should decide what action they are going to take to remedy the problem, not me--they have my support, not my dictate. Actually this was not my idea originally. When a crime happens the first knee jerk reaction is a nuclear response. Some people run with this and perhaps they did on Collins but many people do not realize there are other options, and I do not know if any "best practices" were ever shared with the residence of Keys Crescent.

Excellent question, where do we draw the line. I can not speak for Keys Crescent, I do not live there. However I can speak for steps in and around OTR and Mt. Auburn. Where do we as a community draw the line in our efforts to do anything to stop crime, attract and retain homeowners and provide for a safe and clean environment for both residents and visitors? When do we say after loosing X number of people to crimes that continuously occur on the same steps, some violent, that we as a community stand for nothing less than both the feeling and reality of safety. Do we draw the line at armed robbery, how about 2? Do we draw the line at car breakins? do we draw the line at drug running? do we draw the line at prostitution pick up and drop off points? Or do we wait for something worse, perhaps it will take a murder on an enclosed set of steps for us to say ok, I will draw the line now. I believe it is up to the ones who are most affected by the activity that is occurring on the steps to say where that line is drawn. I live next to the Frintz st Steps. I drew the line at drug running and a crackhead on the steps saying that she would have my wife and myself killed on those steps. We had them cleared on both sides, and put under camera surveillance 24 hours a day. A neighbor of mine drew the line at a gun being pointed to his and his girlfriends head when they were entering their home via a set of steps. He is putting up cameras as well as additional lighting up and down their steps. However what do we do if this does not stop, do we move to 24 hour police patrols on the steps? You tell me. I draw the line at safety, I draw the line at keeping residents that we almost (and still may) loose. So do not just sit here and pretend that people are closing steps just to spite you, you tell me how to correct these issues in other ways. If you want to shoot down one solution, that is ok, but present me with an alternative because we will not just sit back and do nothing.

I am planning on attending this meeting. McMicken, do you have a link to the agreement itself that you could post.

It has come to my attention that some people (and I will not name names) are upset about my portrayal of the facts in this and a school story case. I would like to address these concerns openly, publicly and fairly. First, let me begin by saying one of the greatest things I have found on this site is the ability to interact with others who have more information on a topic. Traditional news outlets do not give you that chance, most of the time you sit back, listen, and take the new's accounting as both factual and complete, yet rarely is this the case. UrbanOhio gives everyone a chance to add to or correct information that is put out in the news. And in the addition or correction by members of the forum, people who disagree with the facts as presented by a forumer, can interject and refute the new information. For far to long, OTR and other surrounding communities have had organizations who on the surface appear to want to help the community by doing what is necessary to foster new home ownership and business attraction. However, some of these same organizations have, over the years, hendered the very development that they claim to want to bring about. When information, complete information, is put out for the public cosumption, these groups get angry, they claim that they are being defamed and take action to, not refute the facts presented, but to get others to quiet the information. I will make everyone a deal. I will not stop writing about the true events that take place in situations that I am directly involved in. I will not stop correcting inaccuracies or adding to media reports that I know more information about. However I will refrain from using anyones name, I will speak in generalities and only site the organizations they may be affiliated with. That being said, if their name appears in the media report, they are fair game as far as I am concerned. If they are willing to put themselves out as a public figure to one outlet, they need to be prepared to be treated as such in other outlets as well. I invite anyone who feels that I have misrepresented the facts to sign on (you can even use an alias) and refute me, correct me, or flat out tell me I am mistaken. I welcome a debate, I welcome your version of the facts, and I look forward to hearing from you directly as opposed to a disinterested third party.

Riverviewer, Are you saying that you have not heard of crime aided by the Collins steps or steps in general. I do know two families on Keys Crescent and this is going back a year or so ago, they did have a rash of car break-ins that they said the steps were both the ingress and egress routs. On Mulberry we to have had our fair share of crime, from drug running to armed robbery that has occurred on 3 separate stairs, but we are utilizing other measures to stop them.

No, you will be blinded by the flash grenade, that is the next step if the cams do not work.

I will say this, the DDP has been especially helpful to us granting us meetings, giving us advise and pointing us to resources. We have found not just the DDP but other organizations in Dayton simply wonderful in their willingness to help us.

Easy come, easy go.... :wave: City reroutes march; Nazis to sue City manager Milton Dohoney has told Cincinnati police to find a new route outside of Over-the-Rhine for a planned April 20 march by a neo-Nazi group.

I believe this is what you are talking about I think you may have misunderstood (or I misspoke) about Dayton. We are recieving non monetary help for Main Street by some groups in Dayton and they are proving to be very useful. No money is being given at all (except by us to these firms), only consulting and legal work. My point in the other post was commenting about an article that was claiming that the next fly by night group was coming through and trying to get something going on Main. I responded in that this group is one, well established, and two, far reaching. Unfortunately at this time, nothing about what we are doing is "public" but it is well on its way. So once again, we are taking nothing from Dayton, only asking for a bit of advise.

We are trying to do exactly that on the 29 Mulberry Steps. It is a different type of camera that we are using, it is a flashcam, used to discourage and catch people who are dumping garbage. We are attempting to kill two birds with one stone, one discourage crime that has happened on those steps, two discourage people from utilizing Peete st as a dump site. Flashcams by the way are a motion activated camera that takes a single shot of anyone who crosses its path. We hope to have it installed as part of a CPOP measure by summer.