Map Boy

Could you gather any reason for them being "wedded" to the existing alignment, if not just for price? Are there political constraints that anyone knows of, or is it a matter of simplicity?

But seriously, students from this period will graduate and move on and no one will remember what was there 8 years ago and this will be accepted as what IS. And though it may seem that the south side of campus is inhabited 100% by students, that's definitely not the case. How much power did these people's voices have?

Like I said, I think it would be really exciting to see this happen and I think there would be definite positives and the alternative is traditional sprawl, which is likely on this site...but I have to say that on the whole, I'm for preservation of natural spaces this far out on the fringe and concentration of growth on existing urban areas. This is a unique development whose affects will be difficult to measure, so I'm just saying, let's be careful and thorough!

Nice Mr. NYC! I probably think the same every time I pass this building now too! I don't love the details on this building, but the scale is right...smaller base with retail and setback upper floors. I wonder if we'd ever have housing built on that lot next to the Square. It would be great, but it would have to be very very pricey... Not sure if that will ever happen, but it would be nice! ps: my bank's downstairs and I'm two stops from here on the Q!

The last one was for the Euclid Corridor line a few years back and it didn't pass, so they opted for the BRT, with the idea that the infrastructure would be there for conversion to light rail one day if they saw that to be necessary. The initial proposals had the "trackless trolly" running on electricity from lines that were to run overhead and be held up by posts planted along a median and hidden in trees along the whole route. I don't know what ever happened to this part of the design, but it seems to have gotten back to a more traditional bus design than those who conceived this plan would have imagined. Anyways, the light rail would have cost something like twice as much, so you can imagine the public discussion over how the money could be better spent...like on stadiums on our lakefront...

Ouch, true, Key Tower really doesn't do a whole lot for the public on the Square. But it's an entirely different structure by design all around. I actually prefer the Ameritrust design...what would have happened if they had done it the other way around?

on another note, one glaring thing you can see from the Viaduct if you look down instead of up is that there are a LOT of parking lots down in the Flats. I know they get used, just as the ones Downtown/Warehouse District do, but is their property value prohibitive to development like the DT/WD ones? It would be nice to see some garages with residential above and retail fronts... this, of course, will one day connect to our beautiful beaches on Whiskey Island!

Yeah, that was my most significant complaint when doing my walkthrough last year...the project does NOTHING for the Flats-level pedestrian...and sadly, it looked like parts of the faux-facade were already coming undone... On the upside (literally), I saw a great deal of potential for the Viaduct level. I snuck through the gates about a year-and-a-half ago and took some cool pics (will post later) and just crossed my fingers that they'd do some good interaction between the buildings and the viaduct. The idea that the owner has of running a trolly from the site up to the market is very very cool and leads me to believe that the activity along the Viaduct is a priority. And the views from up there??? hoo boy! niiiice! I think it will earn a reputation as one of the most unique characteristic public spaces in Cleveland...views, history, activity...the lot! So, I'll post my 18-month old photos, but does anyone else have images from the Viaduct from more recently???

Hey guys, just found this post and am somewhat familiar with the articles, but hadn't heard any updates. I'm glad that everyone here is thinking so critically and optimistically at the same time about this project. Who knows if it will ever see the light of day, but the initial commitment to making the right decisions for the long run is there (in the form of millions of public $$$), so why not give every proposal with merit a good look? I think the landmark bridge idea here is great, but I'm more excited about the development potential in the Flats and Gateway. Despite all the investment that went into the Gateway district after the stadium and arena were built, I think there were definitely impediments on the potential for growth because of the lack of open land for new development. San Diego has seen a whole new neighborhood grow up out of its stadium district and it looks fantastic. Of course, we don't have the population growth that San Diego does, but wouldn't this help to drive it??? I often cite Portland, OR for examples and as there are already pictures from Portland neighborhoods in KJP's first PDF attachment, why not do it again? Portland had a rail yard north of Downtown and the Pearl District (similar to our Warehouse District, but more expansive) that marked the end of development and cut off the Pearl from the northern banks of the Wilamette River, much like the CSX yard in this proposal. They also had issues with the alignment of freeway exits, though on a much smaller scale. A new development group was formed, acquiring the 34-acre rail yard, the State made the alignment changes to the freeway and the developers began a massive $600 million urban redevelopment project with housing, retail and open space, all served buy a new streetcar line. It has progressed rapidly and looks great! I see this as a similar opportunity for Cleveland, anchored by Downtown and Gateway with huge potential in transit links, both with the existing light rail, rail expansion, and freeway access. How did the meetings go? Is it too late for me to write letters?

come on guys! I'm stranded here in NYC and I need the goods! I need pictures and drawings and other goodies!

Hey, at least we're in there at all for transit projects...and let's be honest...it was OUR VOTERS who vetoed light rail over and over again. The Fed would fund throw big money at it if we passed it. There have been so many proposals on the table since I started paying attention in the mid-90s and of course they wouldn't all happen, but it's the voters who have summarily rejected the idea...and maybe they're right. Maybe we don't need rail and the more significant $$$ that go with it. Maybe this BRT thing will be the perfect fit. But when we're talking about these big infrastructure projects along the Lakefront and the Shoreway and the Innerbelt, we HAVE TO include the expansion of Light Rail as an option. So many cities are doing it right now and why not Cleveland???

Really? You think the street level facades are unfriendly??? I mean, I can't tell from the pictures what would have occupied the first floor, but I'm assuming there would have been retail. I think the scale and facade of that first 12-floor segment is ideal.

I've been resisting this thread for a while (who am I kidding? I've only been on this site for 5 days!) and I finally sat down to check it out. I think it's crazy and I think Eco City is right to question the regional ramifications of such a project! I also think it sounds amazing and anything that would bring international (or at least national) attention to the region and its development potential is positive. However, I am an urban planner who must think of every last detail (whether I like it or not) and I have to think regionally and in the grand scheme of things, I think we need to manage growth more carefully. Proposals like this would be interesting cases for variances...islands of development within a conservation framework. I mean, what are the chances that this would be a one-house-per-acre development five years from now if it isn't developed in this way? Pretty good, I'd say. There'd be a few big-boxes and some super expensive houses and the sprawl would just continue. I could go into a whole schpeal on sprawl here, but no one wants to hear it, so I'll just say that we need to proceed with caution here. Don't bite at the money and forget that there will be a ripple effect through the entire region. Cleveland got nervous about a Walmart...how do you think they feel about this???

Well, I've gotta say, I'm just glad this is all happening after my time at UC because it would have been enough to make me leave if I was still there... I know five years down the line, no one will remember Acropolis Chili or Inn the Wood or the "old" Baba's, but right now, it's a little heartbreaking. Given, I HATED the fast food feel of the street while I lived on the south side of campus (Ohio Ave, Bosley) there was still enough there to satisfy me. Baba's was my second home for 2 years and Inn the Wood served up some delicious breakfast logs! I knew there needed to be a change, but they've gone far beyond what they should have. I can't believe they knocked down all those row houses and other historic buildings with character that could have been left as an homage to the south campus of the past. And if they TOUCH Old St. George, I'm on the first flight back from NYC to chain myself to the altar! Two of my best friends got married there last year and the people who saved that building have put so much of themselves into it... a small fraction of what the city/university have put up for the rest of the development would make the biggest difference to them. I say, "Good riddance McDonald's, Prime Time, Boston Market!" "Good luck Baba's, Thai Express, independent retailers!" By the way, how has this affected rents on the south side of campus? My rent (1997-99) never went above $250/month over there in 3-5 bedroom houses...

Which is more what you're thinking of? By the way, I've just found out that the Portland Streetcar's (the first image) expansion is moving forward quite rapidly with the newest extension opening next week. The MAX light rail expanded in 2001 (to the airport) and in 2004 with a whole new (yellow) line. This was finished 4 months ahead of schedule and under budget!

I don't know why everyone's so down on this tower's appearance...I'm quite fond of it! But as is obvious from some of my other posts, I'm not always in the mainstream in my tastes...(ie: my affection for the existing Ameritrust Tower on E.9th and Euclid) Aside from the sheer magnitude of the building, I think the design is great because it has that 12-story base and then the setbacks on up to the top. I think if we're going to seek out another skyscraper on this last remaining side of Public Square, then it can't just be a straight up-and-down wall that blocks out our sun. This design is great because it maintains the mass of the initial PS buildings until the 13th floor, which is where the setbacks start. The glass facade is also nice because it helps disquise the building's mass as it reaches for the sky. The top is, well, interesting, but if anyone's noticed the new towers at Times Square, a couple have this sort of top. I think they contain wind turbines, smart ventilation systems, solar panels and radio towers that help the buildings function according to green/sustainability principles. Or maybe they're juts bleachers for the annual air show...what do i know?! Boy, did my 16-year-old heart ever break when I found out this was not to be...

Smakem, I like that rail idea...where'd you come up with it? Just a personal fancy or has this been proposed somewhere? Also, where'd you get those high resolution aerial photos? on the subject... I know I'm always boasting about Portland, Oregon, but really, there are lots of examples we can take from them to try to fgure out how to make these ideas work. For example, they installed a new streetcar line (old notion, new cars) in 2001 that has been highly successful. It helped a new residential neighborhood spring up out of a gigantic brownfield site on the northern end of downtown and has the potential to expand further through downtown and do the same on the south end. I need to find out more about how they financed it, but it's very unintrusive and attractive and shares a right-of-way with automobiles. This is a separate line and operator than their acclaimed MAX light rail lines, but the MAX offers a connection to Smakem's proposal with its route through Downtown and its central station is on their "public square," which is Pioneer Square. The square is vibrant and really serves its many functions very well, from concerts to transit hub to hang out spot. Again, the MAX is very unintrusive, very handsome, and has spurred new development (TOD) all along its route...both downtown and in outlying neighborhoods. It has helped Portland build density within the Urban Growth Boundary without increasing automobile traffic to unmanageable levels. I would LOVE to see something like this happen in Cleveland, but I feel like voters have shot rail down at every turn and we may be destined to dreams of BRT!

The streets on the East Bank aren't very functional anyways. Has anyone ever seen a proposal for making the East Bank, namely Old River Road, car-free? They have a neighborhood similar to this in Portland, Oregon where they've run the light rail through on a cobble-stone, car-free street. It's called Old Town/Skidmore and it's very very functional. They have one of the best outdoor urban markets down there and loads of clubs, bars, shops, homes, etc. There are bridges passing overhead and trains passing through...very charming. It all has an old feel and it's connected directly to the riverfront park...sounding familiar at all? Here's a website: http://www.oldtownchinatown.com/ And here are some of my pics:

Sorry, I just posted some similar stuff on another thread that still exists...maybe someone with the know-how should combine the two? http://www.urbanohio.com/forum2/index.php?topic=1759.0

Thanks for those great postcard images KJP! What a collection! I'm particularly taken by the ones from 1907-1910 with the fountain and the pond. This was, of course, a different era for Downtown, what with mansions just down the street. The images with the pond make it look more like Boston Commons than the Public Square we know today, although PS was probably created to serve the same function as BC...Western Reserve and all that. And I'll take today's version over the 1970s and 1980s version any day!

Thanks for the updated image Strangebrew...it helps pull the neighborhood together. Any word on who owns the other "potential development" sites?

I do agree, in principle, with the prior post on the notion of not supplying parking for new buildings in the Flats, but I have a feeling that the city and often other government agencies have parking requirements of new developments that would prevent even a developer who sought this idealist design from seeing it through. Maybe it's more incentives than requirements...I don't know. Someone fill us in if they're familiar... On the subject, I spent a semester studying in London in 1999, during which I completed a design proposal for a 50 acre site over a rail yard. I included parking in my proposal and all the other people (Italian, Japanese, British) around me asked why...I thought about it and I realized that this is a complete waste of space in Central London and that the site had 3 underground stations within a five minute walk. However accessible this Flats site is to public transit, though, residents of the neighborhood can't get WHEREVER they want from the Waterfront Line. And people who are coming in for the shopping or the entertainment can't get to the site from WHEREVER they are. That's the advantage of transit systems in Europe, Asia and NYC...you really can get anywhere you need to go, maybe with a transfer, maybe not. In Cleveland, it often takes several transfers...and the waiting! I love me some public transit, but Cleveland just doesn't have the critical mass to support it without accommodating for the use of automobiles. Sad as it may be. One last note...If we were evern going to try to push this NO PARKING agenda forward, I think the Flats would be an ideal place to do it, since there is so much parking and transit nearby.

Man, this really burns me up... I worked for the City Planning Commission for 3 months as a planning intern in 1998 and I was thrilled to be surrounded by shelves and cupboards of archived (buried) plans from years past. However, as the summer went on, I found the plans to be very exciting, but the discourse about them to be non-existent! Some were two years old and had already been discarded. Literally BOOKS of master plans. To think about how much vision and research and production had to go into these plans, just to have them die on paper...I often wonder if I can handle coming back to Cleveland to be a planner! Presently, I have no idea where the blame should be placed, but I've heard the lot...economy, steel prices, tax law, greed, political mishaps, egos, city, state, federal...and on and on... I want to know what makes these projects happen. I want to know how vision becomes reality. And I wonder how many people in our town really do care. I know I do!

I love any idea that increases mass transit options and gives us the opportunity to develop along transit corridors. The enticing fact about this idea is that if the Lakefront plan goes forward as proposed, there will be such significant capital improvements along the western (and eastern) Lakefront and it would be amazing to see light rail included in those plans. Developers would jump on the projects more ardently and would build for more density...and those of us who don't want to buy a car could actually get to Edgewater or Gordon parks!

X, I like your comments. I think the burying of the major thoroughfares is a pipe dream...I just don't think it would ever happen. Alternatives like new, traffic calming paving sound great and very practical. People are going to get where they're going either way and they often get stuck at the lights at some point through the Square, so why not add some character (and some safety) with cobblestone/brick? And it would mark it as an important place to note as you're passing through. Great ideas...and so simple! The ring road's necessity I've never actually thought about, but that's interesting too. Unfortunately, I think there are a lot of bus routes that take that road. And these roads move pretty slowly and are avoided by the average driver anyways. Still interesting to think about.