Etheostoma Caeruleum

About 6 or 7 feet long by about 6 feet tall.. May have another one there too. And there will also be a 14'X20' mosaic Mona Lisa.....made up of several individual paintings.

I knew a guy who used to work maintenance on those radio towers and claimed that on a clear day you could see faintly all the way to downtown Cleveland.

Happened to notice lights and work going on here... Anyone know anything new?

I don't know how many times I'm going to say this, but you kids need to learn a 2nd language coming out of the womb or you're going to be limited and left behind. Good observation. I am learning an Algonquian language. (Shawnee) Not for the usefulness in this world today, per se, but because few people can speak it and I would want to learn something a bit different. I know a bit of Italian already, but it sure could use some tuning. That came just from having a cursing Italian G.father around. Hmmmm...leaving the US, let's see...I already know I am not going to retire (and I mean retiring at an early age, not when I am nearly dead) in the US. I have wanted to expatriate for a while now, for various reasons..... Tasmania (state of Oz) Sydney, (area cities like Berry, Wolongong, Kiama, anything south coast) or, New Z. ...Maybe Tuscany, (lots of cousins there) perhaps.

I view it as such...as a sort of extended neighborhood... as I am a more regional viewing person, but many don't see it that way and stick to hard core imaginary lines. But yes, the core of the core is important and the nearby neighborhoods can play off its success and vice versa. It amazes me at how many people still live in these near neighborhoods and are not very familiar with our epicenter downtown...what it offers.

Also posted on Urban Farms thread... PBS was in town from San Francisco.... http://web.me.com/gardensunderglass/gardensunderglass/My_Albums/My_Albums.html

Posted on Gardens Under Glass thread as well... PBS from San Francisco was in town.... http://web.me.com/gardensunderglass/gardensunderglass/My_Albums/My_Albums.html

Good to know something is happening. Tired of looking at Flats "Least Blank"

There are more windows to come. Here is the latest.... Please click the link and go to the Flikr site. I cannot post photos here anymore. Thanks! http://www.flickr.com/photos/50585068@N07/5100354169/#in/pool-1416290@N20/

We are currently working on an anti-litter campaign awareness project that we want to pilot in a few neighborhoods and get schools and many other parties on board. This is happening and already started. We need more people to do the delegated jobs assigned, however, and more to join in. I announced this on UO, but with little interest. We found much more at the block clubs where people actually show up. As for the square litter, this area in particular needs more responsibility taken on all parties involved in creating the mess in the first place---which again, involves the city, and RTA. Cleaning it up, although an ongoing important component to abating or curbing the problem, is simply not enough. Doing that on certain areas of the square, w/o also incorporating more enforcement of any rules, laws, or ordinances designed to keep it at bay....only sends a message that someone will always be there to clean up someone else's mess. But, yeah, keeping it clean is important too, or you lose it. A balance of both needs to happen and this is the example we are going to attempt to promote. There needs at some time to promote accountability and regard for the city ordinances and state laws on litter/illegal dumping. Since enforcement has virtually been non-existent, some must then think it is their right to do so, or that they are entitled to do it. So, this is where this campaign will focus on too... raising the awareness that it is actually illegal. When the individual is given the free will to abide by the law and then fails to acknowledge it, it then becomes time to pull out the crying Indian again and start all over. There are meetings now each month and you, or anyone else is more than welcome to come and listen to what we are doing, and perhaps become involved. I want to note, however, that litter is not "my issue" it is something that affects everyone and this city's image and many other negatives (for one costing the state 8 million to clean up just along highways in '07/'08) and definite link to the broken window theory. Investors are given a choice of where to invest, so seeing a place look crappy exudes carelessness on the community's part and therefore does little to sell the potential investment.

Did you go to Lakeview Cemetery? Great just to walk through...

IMO, this is sort of glossing over the drab scene. No one has to become "tolerant" of what is often a lot of illegal behavior/activity that goes on there. One of the factors making it less than inviting inthe first place, besides design. Again, IMO...Tolerating certain inappropriate activity is a cop out/rationale to accept what deep down one may realize has no socially redeeming value, or that they feel they have no control over. On the "sanitized suburbanite" title....Does this also mean that only people in the burbs look "sanitized?" Oh, its the stereo-type/tru-ism which I tend to agree with, however..... Not nice to generalize like that...because such a comment is seldom gotten away with if it were they looking back in the other way. Anyway, I live in the city proper and clean up/exercise basic hygiene and do not take craps in broad daylight in public...so what is the label I get slapped upon my forehead? :-o Funny...as much as I am near the square....on it...walk through it or around it...or drive by it when working, etc... I see not a whole lot more than some of the less than welcoming scenes we have been discussing. I think that if we had all these optimistic and tolerant UO'ers on it at any given time, it might make it even more friendly. :roll: How about we all step away from the screen for a bit and make it a destination for a social and make that become a reality. Let's show how much we stand by it AS IS...and will use it no matter what the scene and will tolerate whatever! Monday, Wednesday or Friday after 5:00 PM is good for me. See you there. Or not? :wtf: Hmmm where are all these square supporters?

Let's not make this into a race issue by acknowledging race. Not one time did I mention race/socio-economic status. I could care less what flavor anyone is or how many homes they have or do not have, or money for that matter... If their behavior is unacceptable...its unacceptable, period--And, it should be dealt with appropriately, as no one gets a free pass to act un-accordingly because of their race, etc. If they did, such would simply draw negative attention to that particular group as others soon see that rules apply to some but not others. So, let's not go the direction of race because to assume I dislike the situations at P.S. because of race/socio-economic status would be a quite prejudiced assumption and insulting. I would be offering up the same ideas if the setting were a suburban mall in the far burbs where it would likely be Caucasian youths involved in the scenarios that go down at the square. So, I am an equal opportunity frowner on any issue that involves acts that spoil the square or become the proverbial "turd-in-the-punchbowl" no matter who or what it is involved. Ok, how to deter the situations? I made some suggestions, however I doubt they will come to fruition, because for sure, someone will eventually pull a race card or "you're picking on the poor" card, or whatever other excuse card exists.. if, for example, I suggest moving these bus stops. (just one idea...and would still suggest it no matter who was riding transit because I don't like the idea of having all the hulking transit invading the town green) I have suggested the presence of on-foot patrol on the quadrants when possible, but that may not happen because of the "we lack the resources" issue...and if the police DID actually attempt to curtail the behavior that is a deterrent on the square...we will eventually get right back to where we started by someone turning this into an issue where the police are "picking on".... what/whomever. So, how do you win? This cannot be both ways. How about a little imaginary experiment...let's imagine all bus stops away from this area and it used as just an events area and park. Add to this, an enforcement on aggressive panhandling and/or vagrancy/loitering....which would all likely result in a reduction of the litter/yelling and hollering as well and other connected behaviors, or lack-thereof. Moreover....How about a reduction of panhandlers right outside of businesses ready to target people with a money beg. Let's just suppose this were reduced by taking some basic pro-active community action against a lot of the kind of behavior that is illegal in the first place. So no, it is not becoming a dictatorship..rather, just enforcing existing rules/laws. (and I did not mention passing the hand....which I have witnessed several times on dark parts of Ontario...near enough to the square.) Do you suppose...Just maybe.... it just might become a more desirable place instantly if said issues were curtailed? My conclusion, and although I support a re-design eventually, feel it is not going to have the impact it can have if these issues are not dealt with first to make what we have the best it can be. If the redesign employs the art of creating a central transit area away from the square just enough to keep the current issues associated with it at bay and from being an issue in all areas of it, then let's go with it. Its not just people behaving anti-socially that is an issue, it is the hulking noise and fumes of all the buses. From a pedestrian standpoint wanting to relax in the park....such is not conducive to making such an experience the best quality it can be. As a former small shop keeper, I would sure as hell welcome the smaller changes first. I would hate to see a new square with the same old patronage and unabated current issues.

Good to see this cracking down on intentional hits to injure or take out. This is chump change to these guys, is it not? How about he sit out as long as a player hit is injured if the injury is really bad? Good idea? How to send a message?

Well, you're usually the first to deny or jump all over something I point out which may demand more or better...or accountability. Maybe denying it is not the best way to put it... How about "downplaying" it. And, said deterrent being proposed as second to design, I would say is downplaying the issue...intentional or not. All I am saying in the shortest summary is that I am NOT opposed to a better design...but not without strict attention to the current problems, that left unabated, I see will carry over to any new design, no matter how nice.

I agree, the current design...allowing all the traffic to intersect is not the best by any means...However, the design is not the ONLY issue. People still used it for decades to come and relax and sit in its current format....But when unsavory situations are or have been allowed to escalate and make it a permanent camp, it deters a lot of leisure people/possible events we'd like to see like families and "ice cream" socials. I see lots of unsavories sitting down enjoying themselves in its current format. There was also fight early on in its history that opposed the dissection of traffic through it...but again, in its history, it was still heavily used for a meeting place. So, having said that...The uninviting feeling today, IMO, has more to do with the current element and perception, more so than the actual design. At the end of the day it is a lot of both. Why does it seem like taboo to simply fess up to this obvious deterrent.

Biting off more than can chew? What happened?

Having them clean would be a nice start. They need a good scrubbing!

I agree with all your points.... except the last part I list above. I don't think if businesses offer a great product and overall good service and atmosphere, that they ever really get stale. Maybe in the case of appearance, small changes like paint, decor...and new items or some other gimmick can keep things fresh. Some people like to go to or support places that offer a sense of permanence...some loyalty to a neighborhood and the kind of place that establishes itself as an institution. One example... and I don't eat this kind of product, but The Hot Dog Shoppe in Warren....has changed little and has been there for decades attracting people from all over and is as popular as ever. Businesses in other countries, some being in existence for 100's of years is another example. The nostalgia component, among what I mentioned before in being an "establishment" or neighborhood icon... plays a role in these types of places success.

I thought it was a flooring store that the Amish had there. It was when I was there.

What is the current height of this tower of Babel?

^^ Well stated JBorger. And in reply to ^... While definitely granted.... Such seems to be the catch all excuse for accepting slack in Cleveland. Personally, I am well aware of this issue existing in other places, but really don't have the time to clean up other places messes. So, as for my opinions on this thread, I'm focusing on what we can do in Cleveland to make this situation improve, hence why I point it out HERE.....rather than downplaying or excusing it with the handy... "Well, these issues are not exclusive to Cleveland" or something to that nature. Most here on the forum who point out the described issues are intelligent enough to KNOW and acknowledge that...But are focusing on what we can do to improve the issue, rather than simply accepting status quo. And as JBorger indicated...right or wrong, the perception prevails and this needs to change...and attracting more people there could basically, for lack of a better way to put it, "dilute" the obvious prevailing often perceived current situation of the scene there. But, I am not so sold on the idea that a re-design will necessarily change the current described scene unless the stops are moved. If you read the history... many Clevelanders were adamant and opposed about turning their public green into a transit hub or getting it overly commercialized. It seems as though transit has had its way with the public's square for too long. IMO, It is almost a chicken or egg scenario... Do you do a total re-design in the hope that it will be suddenly made attractive to attract those extra crowds/events and change the feel...OR, do you start with basics and make it more attractive to attract the people and more events....first who will use it for more than waiting for a ride, or loitering, etc. This can perhaps begin to happen with more presence of walking security and maybe more aggressive effort on the city's part to curb the litter which gets out of hand. If the re-design does not entail re-locating bus stops in light of the current and often perceived transitional clientele who frequents it the most, the unattractive issues will still remain even in a place that it is totally new. So, in essence we build a new park for loiters, etc..to hang around ...around the perimeters. The current perception, right or wrong is killing the square and the point is not that it is a right or wrong perception...rather, that it IS a common perception. I am near it quite often, walk through it.. (really, I do!) and at various hours and in my opinion, there is a fair bit of truth to these perceptions that some may see as inaccurate. I am trying to put it lightly, but my unedited side says... "Hell yes their is truth the the perceptions!") I have people watched there for moments on end......and I would lay a safe bet that many who are hanging around there are not waiting for a bus, at least not all the ones on a daily basis who ask me for money.... Or say.. "excuse me sir..can I ask a small favor" and I reply.. "No you may not". They're just loitering and hanging out, panhandling ...and the inconvenient truth is that this is bad for businesses/leisure tourists/people with families... because it is a potential turn off because it is in-your-face and imposing. Ask anyone who operates a business downtown if they want this right in front of their door. As a one time small shopkeeper, I would NOT want this going on in front of my door. So let's admit it has issues that need to be fixed and the solutions may not be popular for some. But that is what compromise is all about...reaching a workable and mutually satisfying medium. This is all simply my personal perception of this square's current condition and how it can be improved from a perception standpoint. I can honestly say that when I have guests here from out of town, I try and avoid the S.W. Quadrant and/or walking near all the bus stops where most of the litter and other issues accumulate. Its not the first impression I want someone to have of the city.

Good article for a change. Just a few comments on some comments....In reference to the first couple thinking a mixed relationship stands out. Actually it is not unique and it is very common..and I am actually glad some people stay in their own neighborhoods because I shudder to think of the problems the wrong element would bring into otherwise stable ones. (Disclaimer... to a select few forumers...please don't deal a prejudiced race card because my comment applies to any flavor who has bad behavior) Second girl who commented on all the old buildings... Glad we still have a handful left and I hope its not roadkill she is seeing 'on the roadside.'.... More.... RTA seems to get not the greatest hints at its user friendliness in the article.. (RTA take notes) and lastly, I would have hate to read the plethora of turd-in-the-punchbowl comments by the peanut gallery on CDC. The comment feature appears to be disabled. Is it? If so... Gee, I wonder why! :-o

^ So frustrating when you feel like you have to chase someone down to which you're giving money...to get information..and they act like that on the phone. Unreal and completely unacceptable. On a side note, I have wondered why the building lights have been out for so long. Maintenance, costs? Or is this some Pittsburgh conspiracy to dull the Cleveland skyline at night? :-o

No, we really don't need to re-invent the wheel. Good point. For starters and right now (easier said than done)....Just clean up the square...enforce laws....keep the troublesome money beggars away...litterers, loiterers, etc....clean it as best it can be...offer more events there and we essentially already have the same thing as the park you describe, not as fancy. The more I look at this, and although I really do like the re-design ideas, (especially connecting it and creating a real pedestrian area without being dissected with roads) it is essential to...again, get the basics right first, that we are not currently doing. Let's imagine a re-designed square right now. With the currant stewardship climate and transitional clientele, what do you suppose the place would look like in a matter of time? I see a nicely re-designed square that is abused. The square, as far as condition is not that bad.. The S.E. Quadrant... really nice... N.E. Quadrant.... good... N.W. Quadrant....fair...the S.W. quadrant...the first thing people see when exiting T.T. is a sewer....and IMO, NOT because of the design so much as it is the lack of attention to litter, the loitering, the panhandling, etc. It just does not exude a welcoming and safe feel. If all this was curbed.... and events were infused on it more like the farm market or a jazz concert....the place becomes much better. I just don't see how a re-design, unless the transit is re-located (taboo to suggest that to many, I know) is suddenly going to alter the habits of those who currently occupy it...and those responsible for its upkeep. Let's use the current square as a "practice" scene first. make it the best it can be by doing some of what is suggested above...offer the events to get more bodies there besides those waiting for a bus or those littering plastic cigar tips all over.or those loitering for no other reason than to loiter and maybe ask for money. Them when we can be successful with this...lets graduate to the next stage. This is taking a resourceful approach. Make it the best it can be without having to spend 5 lifetimes times a million of revenue..and get the basics right before jumping to the grandiose, or we risk a grandiose flop, perhaps. Disclaimer: This is just my opinion so if anyone disagrees, that's fine....but there is no need to poo poo, get personal and/or smart off about it and accuse it as being "anti-Cleveland" or some other mistaken notion. :-D