Etheostoma Caeruleum

Just thought I would share this photo. To me it is quite funny. It was in 1983, shortly after the Loraine-Carnegie Bridge was completely overhauled. It was even featured on The Today Show on NBC, as they were doing a program on the re-naming of the bridge to "Hope Memorial" in honor of Bob's father who was one of the stone cutters, or of some importance to the bridge, presumably. I believe me (foreground) and a friend were on our way to a game this day...and to kill some time, we went to the WSM and decided to pull over and have my Father take this quick Polaroid Insta-Matic James Garner special photo! Notice the shoes....socks, hair, shorts...and hat...The 1980's mid sleeve sport shirt! The car was the very reliable Oldsmobile Omega! The bridge pylons are in the back, of course, along with a tiny piece of a few buildings downtown. Just thought I would share. :-D

I believe the height usually listed does not include the proud flag pole..which places the height somewhere near 773 if it was included? If the spire and antennas on other structures can be included in the overall height..why can't this flag post? I also believe there used to be an outdoor observation platform. I used to do some work up in the OB deck. And yes, it was an enormous undertaking at the time..still very grand when you look at the whole complex and how far down they needed to dig. Wasn't there a lot of hand digging?

8 Shades...You have not hijacked the thread. I think you make some points well worth discussion. I am not having a go at you. Nor am I saying what I say is the gospel. Your thoughts just sparked a lot of semi-counter thoughts. Students, section 8, monetarily rich, or challenged, low income, red, white, black, purple, yellow and strawberry, right, center, left of center, right of center...up and down...No matter what the case, indeed, bad neighbors and things that are associated and proven to devalue property, can come from all angles and directions. And, while I acknowledge that, at the same time I cannot, from over and over and over and over experience, deny the reality right before my very eyes... that the places I have most experienced this behavior is near the low income areas. The behavior becomes disproportionate to the population in that given area. I did not profile them ALL to be this way, if you read what I posted. I have friends who have nothing and are wonderful. If I were a good neighbor living in a low income situation, that defies all these stereo-types, I would be ashamed of those around me who are acting this way making it look bad for many others at the same level. At the same time, I would feel compelled to try and do something about taking responsibility to curb such behavior--because I would not want to be thrown into the mix. And I would not blame someone else, for formulating a negative opinion about that particular environment, if they witness it all the time. I would not blame them or think they were profiling. Those who behave the worse are profiling themselves with their bad behavior that draws negative attention. People judge by actions....all of us have done this, it is only natural. Sometimes it is about being cautious and smart...sometimes it can be presumptuous...but the fact remains, it happens. When people are given a lot of things without having worked hard to earn it...There tends to be a less than enthusiastic ambition to maintain it. (indeed, this happens at the white collar level too when corporate welfare is abused) I am different because I feel if I do not own something...if I were renting...I would want to take all the better care of it just because of the fact it does not belong to me. And, I would take full responsibility and accountability for any friends I may invite over who may cause any kind of trouble. The reality is, however, I know those with that attitude are the exception when it comes to the average renter..or low income purchaser. They have the money for the payments, but struggle to get what is needed for ongoing upkeep. Should such deny a place to live? No... But... This sort of decline has started all over again in Warren, Ohio with new low income, less than fair market value homes that were built less than 12 years ago. Already, they are looking shabby (not just because of lack of upkeep..but because they were just downright crapola in quality)..and the behavior follows. Sad for those who are just wanting a clean, safe, comfortable reasonably peaceful place to live. Anti-social illegal neighbor behavior can get you kicked out of the neighborhood in England. And until those who cause a problem learn how to act, they may not return. Imposting bad neighbor behavior on others is not an entitlement, freedom, or right. Its just illegal and wrong. I think how this relates to this thread is learning why many are opposed to certain kinds of projects along Euclid...and what are some of the breeders of those concerns. At the end of the day, I think everyone, no matter who we are, wants to be proud of Euclid. Those who don't care..well that is what fuels the potential problems.

Some could argue the success of these neighborhoods. I know many see the abundance of public housing etc., as having really held these neighborhoods back, and a deterrent to moving into a home there. I know many from out of town (while loving the city) have had a hard time looking at these neighborhoods as livable places due to this. I have witnessed since the 80's people screaming about gentrification. Yet why is w. 25th street basically the same as when I was interning for Ohio City Developement 15 yrs ago? 8shades you make some good points, but when you say "representative population of the city, I think that way of thinking is only helping to determine what the population will continue to be (the population is not representative of the people employed in the city, most of those people live in the suburbs). With what seems like an overabundance of public and subsidized housing everywhere, and poor and rundown neighborhoods, and social service agencies, how could the city be anything but representative of a poor population. I guess because I have seen the opposite here in DC and witnessed the MASS gentrification that DC has experienced in order to cater to its white collar crowd, and while succeeding in drawing large scale development into the city, and lowering the murder rate by shifting some of that population to PG county (MD), there really is nowhere affordable here unless you live in a dangerous, non-gentrified area. Cleveland is not in danger of such things since it is a totally different set of dynamics, but I also don't think that everything has to cater to the poor population, or that it is elitist to want different or to change the dynamic of some of these areas (that have so much potential). I for one would like to see the day when Cleveland is not on the list of poorest cities. I realize shifting this around isn't really changing anything (although there is a pretty big disparity, between the city and the suburbs), but you also don't have to only cater to that population. Bratenahl losing population doesn't really tell me anything since most every part of the Cleveland area has lost population. I think the most significant loses have been in inner ring "former" mid income areas due to the influx of "lower incomes". Why do you think Medina and Loraine County's have continued to grow when the region has not? There needs to be a balance. This is basically what I am saying, all you mention above. Many seem to forget... How was the stigma attached to low income housing, etc. born? Every legend has a basis of truth. People, no matter what color, race, income level.... feared dropping property values and safety, when they witness the behavior associated with some people...and NOT all.. (so PLEASE.....don't anyone draw the profiling card...but it only takes one or two apples to spoil a bunch) who are often a part of such communities. I have lived next to this many times and it is undeniable.....you cannot pretend like it is not a concern or factor in influencing where people want to live. Everytime I was near this..... noise at totally inappropriate hours, inappropriate behavior, lack of simple maintenance on a property, throwing trash on the street, pelting my poor dog with rocks....or worse. So, maybe a good institution along Euclid should be started to teach some people, who obviously had no parental guidance... how to be good neighbors and behave properly in a communal setting...and not use their freedoms to harm and impose their anti-social behavior upon others---but to help them instead. If people don't respect basic respect unto thy neighbor... I don't want to invest thousands to live next to that. Again, I am not saying all the above do not know how to function in a healthy functioning neighborhood, but it takes a small spark to start a fire....and to start the attached stigmas. Yes, there are idiots who live everywhere... But I can't deny the fact that I have experienced more of this when I live near low income. Many will attribute such behavior with the fact that someone is poor.. I agree, it can walk hand in hand (cause/effect)...but maybe it is more about upbringing. When I traveled around the world, I discovered many poor communities that were actually some of the best and charming places--great food too! Just because one is 'poor' does not mean one has to be the kind of persons who are a part of the problems I mentioned above. Pride is free. Doesn't cost a dime... But if you wonder why their is a stigma placed on the lower income, it is obvious. Is it a fair label? Probably, probably not...Will I get accused of being a "profiler", "racist", "anti poor", "elitist" etc..etc?"...Just because I have a certain standard that desires a more harmonious and peaceful socially redeeming community? Probably...but only by those who do not take the time to actually think about any validity in what I am saying. I will not give up my right to have my thoughts on such an issue, just because they do not conform to what someone else's view of a non elitist, profiler, and the rest of those words above, is. It is easier to label someone than to think. Having said that, I did not label anyone in what I wrote here. I simply pointed out a social stigma attached to low income, etc... that people want to tip toe around and not address as part of an underlying cause why a lot of people have their opinions about low income housing---and the rest of the associated mix---people are concerned of happening on Euclid. I didn't label anyone unfairly.... no more than it is a fair label to label someone else 'elitist' just because they aspire for their neighborhood to have a bit of a higher standard and be a positive example, that would attract those from all walks of life to want to be a part of. Deer fear humans... and have pretty much become nocturnal animals. Why? Because they fear the hunter, and thus, humans in general. They learn through experiences, just like many people have learned through experience that too often, there are negative attachments to low income housing. Sometimes we can be too politically correct until many of the obvious truths get buried, ignored, and left unabated. Bottom line.. You are a good neighbor, respect my right to reasonable peaceful living, take pride in your home/neighborhood.. I will do the same. I don't care who you are or where you are from or how much you make. But if not, and you chose to behave poorly. I don't want it. This stuff factors in someone's decision to locate anywhere.

Who is talking about having a millionaires row? I only referred back to that era to illustrate what the difference is between 'elite' and an upper middle to middle environment--or above average and mediocrity---which is all I suggested that should be the aspiration for this avenue. That is hardly elitist. I am really discouraged how many people have bastardized that word and associated it with all that is bad or 'somehow' anti-lower income....... Just as I dislike how the word "liberal" has been bastardized to associate anything left of center as being the road to hell. It is not being 'elitist' as in your use of that word, to aspire for more than mediocrity. I don't have a stupendous income, and one does not need to have one to have higher aspirations than mediocre. Personally, I am not flat out opposed to such places you are saying people are flat out opposed to. I just feel that in a well planned environment, they could stand to occupy not the showcase avenue that will define a lot of what Cleveland is, or aspires to be, no matter what walk of life the participants who make it happen, come from. I understand about stronger neighborhoods encompassing a diverse income make-up, etc, but we can have that on this avenue....without placing some of these institutions right on it. I agree with you a thousand percent that if such will be the happening on Euclid, that it should be well designed as you so well outlined. But the bottom line is...that if we want to make this a diverse avenue in every stretch of the way...Future plans cannot keep catering to mostly one half, and the half that is often catered to is not offering the broader and diverse demographic I would envision for this or any segment of the avenue. But like you said.. if it is bound to be what it will be, then by all means, promote well designs....not 'suburbs-in-the-city' designs.

You make several very good points I can agree with....However....Since when has wanting Cleveland's grand and main....and very storied avenue to have something of the best quality in design and what it offers to promote a new population in that area......become about being elitist? It seems that society is soooooooo used to shooting for way below zero these days, that when someone promotes ideas or values that are AT or a little above zero, say ten degrees above....they're accused of being an 'elitist' It is as though we have lowered standards or expectations on everything in ever way..and when they get back to average... Someone thinks it is snobbish. My how complacency helps foster that attitude. The fact is, you cannot deny the stigma attached to some of the projects proposed in this area. And, while there is a need for these institutions, they do not need to be located on what will beacon as our main thoroughfare to the whole world. Do we want to have that part of Euclid be a tribute to societal dysfunctional treatment? There is no nobility in boasting such social failure. But, as for being 'elite' Euclid was once one of the richest avenues in the world... Simply wishing some institutions be located just off the main avenue is hardly being elitist. To do other than the best this showcase avenue can be, is insulting to the grand history of the avenue. There is nothing wrong with wanting to aspire for something more for this avenue...more than mediocrity. What next? Wal-Mart, Lowes, and Taco Bell parked right next door to Severance! HALL, that is....

What brilliance will they have in mind for the future of this building? Tear it down? Another parking lot?

Happy Belated!

The Browns were in the playoffs! Anyone remember the Clay Mathews interception against Buffalo? There was actually a time I was a big fan.. I can take it or leave it now, and am thankful!

You could also contact McKinight Associates with your ideas and questions, they are the landscape architect. http://www.mcknightla.com/profile.html They are granite curbs, they are being reused I'm sure, just moved out. You can see it on the pic on cleveland.com Unfortunately, if there was granite there before (and I can't recall if there was), it appears to have been "value engineered" out of the final product, as what's there currently is slipformed concrete :-(. This makes me a sad 'DoG, but I'll deal...the overall result is a welcome improvement, and let me add my voice to those who were presently surprised at the speed with which this took place. As mentioned above, save for a small mid-block section, the new sidewalk has been reopened. I have not paid that close attention to the curbs, but if they did replace granite with concrete.... And if the granite was still in decent shape. Mistake. I always thought that streets and walks should be just as much a work of art as the buildings and not an afterthought.

Great story! I had a friend a bit older...40, who lived in Phoenix all her life, has traveled abroad quite a bit..locally too.. And knew her hometown quite well.. But when coming here to visit relatives, I offered up a similar tour and got the same great feedback. Even in sketchy areas she saw potential and that we have so much to work with here. She said it so evident Cleveland has left a historical footprint in many ways in a short time.....shows it was a well established cultured place, while Phoenix was a tumbleweed crossing and stagecoach stop. Well, something to that effect. That is not a knock on Phoenix.. Just her words, more or less. It is good to see people try and help curb the Ohio inferiority complex.

Hmmm..where was I on this day? I think I was working downtown and taking the bus to and from work. I lived on Madison at the time (Lakewood) Loved that time!

It's actually almost impossible. I went one week buying American-made products, and I was constantly having to hunt for labels. While some products claim they may be made in the US, they could be assembled in China but have the labeling applied in the states -- perfectly legal. Simply put, Wal-Mart and other retailers is a necessity for many. As much as I dislike Wal-Mart, I understand that they offer vastly lower prices than many local retailers -- I can get my favorite non-scented all-natural soap at a local retailer for around $3, whereas Wal-Mart will have it for $2. I was surprised at how cheap it was to shop at Wal-Mart, Target, etc. in comparison to many of the products I buy at local retailers. If I was pinching pennies, I'd go to Wal-Mart in a heartbeat, but I enjoy buying and shopping local and going to locally-owned stores. For me, there is a social benefit for that, but not everyone sees it that way. Of course, Wal-Mart and larger retailers have economies of scale -- they can push for lower prices at the supply and manufacturing level, and push for various efficiencies throughout, and have been vastly successful so far. I took quite a few courses regarding supply-chain management, and it's amazing how efficient and orderly Wal-Mart's supply chain is. They knew the instant that a product was tagged with the RFID chip at Colgate, how long it would take to get to a distribution center, how long it would remain at the center (less than a few days, since inventory = money), and how long it would be shipped and sold. It was all electronic and something to be admired. K-Mart's distribution, on the other hand, is archaic, full of paperwork and grossly slow. There is a reason why K-Mart is no longer a dominant retailer in the states. Well, we will be paying the high cost of low price. Let's welcome the latest edition...the Emerald Ash Borer. I have not been to a Wal-Mart in 10 years, nor intend to go, for life...... and this is not from a snobbish standpoint, it is purely economic. I am not as rich as Donald Trump either...But, have proven to myself that this is not a necessity. It is important to challenge the myth and real belief in the mind that these entities are 'needed' , when the need was created, and the more it is bought into, the more it will be impossible to buy "local" anything. I am not condemning anyone for making that choice. But the only time I would question it is when they complain about nothing local being available...and when you illustrate to them how this came to be...and yet they still chose to be a part of the cycle...and then complain more. It is interesting to see what Sprawl-Busters says about this sort of thing... http://www.sprawl-busters.com/caseagainstsprawl.html

I agree... It goes not only for produce but other products as well. But people are so easily lured and lulled by the concept that cheaper/bigger is always better. Often they find in the long run, it is more costly. In at least my business, I found that the guy who always wanted to spend the least..spent the most in the long run, as he (Joe consumer) does not look at factors after point of sale. He will often run 10 miles spending $10. in fuel to save a dime. Buy a product that will be in a landfill in a year. Problem is, these days we often only have enough cash on hand to make the short term purchase. :-( On teaming up with some of these entities...... Personally, I would rather not have them be too powerful in being the agents of change because when they throw some money into the hat, they want to call the shots....and this often undermines the true missions of groups with which they wish to engage. Gotta be careful about that. This is the same scenario that has happened to the organic movement...and small farmers who started this idea, saw it coming. PR/bottom drives their interest. It is never about altruism, and that is ok in its own right....but this is why when I worked on a river conservation team, I and others actually were very cautious when a large entity was wanting work with us suddenly out of the blue... We felt we would have lost our true vision, mission, and have to answer to their interests if their name was going to be on the headlines. Instead, we sought out several diverse local businesses. These days, the group did cave into the temptation of money..and not the whole true mission of the group has been severely compromised. I resigned because I do not feel we have to keep having these big guys ride into town like the Lone Ranger and save the day...they fall, we all fall when we build an economy solely around them, making us more co-dependent. Diversity in the economy breeds stability.

Hardly anything is made here exclusively anymore.. Best you can do is 'buy local' You always hear 'buy American' but you rarely hear 'buy local'

Wal-Mart is not "green" No matter what they do to appear so, 'green and Wal-Mart' do not belong in the same sentence. There are so many reasons why, as someone just posted one above, which helps increase need for fuel. It is all a lot of green-washing, when they suggest they are green through clever PR. They are not the only one who does this, but in retail, indeed the biggest, so hence they get the most attention. Scenario: You clear 60 acres of woods and functioning wetlands...to build a building that supposedly operates 'green' but still adds to the overall demand for electric, especially when they run 24 hours. The fact is, you have offset any gain with the destruction of habitat...the probable stampeding and undermining of existing businesses..both at the middle man level and retail.....and the imminent perpetuation of more sprawl, with Wal-Mart usually the main course, flanked by Lowes, Applebees, and a host of other clone zone auto dependent establishments. If they really wanted to be 'green' they more often would utilize existing lands already built upon, and stop using the "its cheaper to build on wooded area" excuse. Cheaper for who in the long run? Build on brownfields (such as steelyards) retro-fit existing abandon plaza buildings that can be saved...Do away with the sea of pavement, stop the predatory pricing and deceptiveness.... How about doing away with plastic bags, period... Stop carrying sooooo much junk food that increases demand for sugar, makes everyone FAT..and hence resulting in draining wetlands for sugarcane production.... Stop building one on every corner of every county whether it is needed or not just to keep shareholders happy.....leaving some to close and communities needing to fill that big ugly empty void, and the myriad of other voids they often leave in their wake. Oh man.. I could go on and on about listing all the variables as to why they are as far from 'green' as you can get. As an avid conservationist, I dreaded the day when companies like this would make a joke and mockery of the green movement. Just like the move I Heart Huckabees! And, as someone in sales/marketing for years... I tend to smell the crap when its lurking. Totally hate this place and every time I pass one, I feel my IQ dipping, waistline burgeoning...and a sudden urge to buy a trailer. I guess I am the selfish guy who likes to keep the local family owned businesses running, instead of helping whoooosh all the money out of here.

I was thinking the same thing. The view from Cliff Drive also makes it clear that Lake Erie isn't a lake (at least in the sense many people not from this area understand). Instead, it's an inland sea. As for a future development, I don't take people to a site where X will go someday. I have seen too many projects fail to materialize to subject myself to disappointment and my city to potential embarassment by saying something will happen and then have to explain later why it didn't. If someone asks me "What's that construction project" then I'll tell them, sometimes with pride. I agree.. It is currently embarrassing looking at nothing but exposed dirt at Flats East. I suggested they at least place some signage.

All these are fabulous suggestions! I am very familiar with all of them... All I can really offer at this point is something a little off the beaten path....Much of my work has taken me into the realms of "natural Cleveland" and its buffer zones...many 'best kept secret' places and pockets with stunning natural beauty that not a lot are familiar with. (even beyond the metro parks) I won't list these types of places here...but should anyone want to know.. PM me. For a hint.. Gildersleeve Mountain, where the beginning of the Allegheny plateau supposedly starts, you can see all the way to the lake and to downtown Cleveland. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gildersleeve_Mountain The photo looks as though Cleveland is sprouting up in the middle of a forest! Also, much closer...and as long as we are near Clif Drive... Did anyone yet mention some areas along Lake Drive...going into Rocky River are nice to show the large homes...Yaught Club area, which looks like a scene out of Jaws... Huntington Beach areas in the Cleveland M. Parks, Rocky River Park is nice... How about West Blvd or East Blvd? Nice homes there... Overlook Road in the Hts. with some nice homes..Coventry.. All mentioned, I think. Everyone has suggested so many good things...in the city..the core and some surrounds.. I cannot think of a lot more off the top so quickly... But... Maybe as far as the 'greater Cleveland region', or what they are calling "plus"...and this is stretching it a bit, but maybe a day trip to Kelly's Is.... or Holmes county for the best swiss cheese..... Guggisberg on Rt. 557 and head south for a very scenic drive...and even get off and travel some of the gravel roads....Or even Middlefield, but go to the Co-op for the cheese as it is more true to the original M.Field cheese recipe. Well, aside from all mentioned, I cannot help but include what is left of the 'country side' that skirts and protects our fair city. This is good especially in Autumn, as well as the M. Parks. I have a list of scenic roads. The possibilities are really endless.... Oh, how about some of the quirky restaurants and areas along Loraine Ave.

Did you see the color post card photo? It is even better. It will make you want to crawl right into the photo!

Me too.. I don't think it will be torn down. It is in an historic zone. Someone does maintain the property as well as they can...... But it is ridiculous that this house has not gained some interest, of all Ohio City homes, one of their shining stars!

That is correct! I think the reason I ended up losing my wallet in Lakeview after a jog with the dog, is because I neglected to place a dime on J.D.'s grave!

Yes, it is great. That is a great house.

Yeah, Bass Pro's allure falls short

Does anyone know, besides the usual hype with the social club or 'the intent to renovate' stories behind Franklin Castle? I did some recent research on the back taxes and it appears there is a considerable amount owed. Some say the owner is in Mansfield, some say, no way...she is out in San Fran... Whatever the case, here stands empty after the fire damage, what is a signature home on Franklin Blvd. on Cleveland's near west side--that could be a combination of some of the following..... a great visitors center/ neighborhood association headquarters/museum/lodge, and the like. Franklin Castle is one of the few remaining stone houses that apparently used to be common along the Blvd. It is popular for the ghost stories and history of the house and even could be a destination for those ghost chasing shows. Still, it simply sits. I live in O.C. yet at block club meetings, it is rarely discussed and when it is, no one seems to know much about its future. Every time I walk past this place I think it is a shame that if such a house on a main blvd. in such a neighborhood steeping with activism, continues to sit there with seemingly no interest, and this was going on long before the economy took a dump. Does anyone have any kind of scoop on this place other than the story... "She intended to renovate it..bums caught it on fire....and a social club, etc" Being a resident of the neighborhood, I am glad that private social club idea fell through. I was hoping it could become more of what examples I listed above.

The building where Corbos was is one of the best signature buildings of Little Italy. I'd love t see it renovated. Maybe a nice little classy grocery store that would serve a walkable neighborhood well. No lottery/brown bag, though.