Etheostoma Caeruleum

Don't know about a lot of others, but yes, as a matter of fact I have. The question I was referring to was the question of sizes of such exhibits as people were talking about.

As someone did mention the scary looking big guys of Ohio waters, that are older than the dinosaurs---the following link contains an old photo of a fairly sizable Alligator Gar. Although not in Lake Erie (other species of gar call the lake home-long and short-nosed) it had a range reaching up into the Ohio River, but it is now extirpated in Ohio. The gar is considered a 'passive predator' and is by no means a means to scare you out of the water...However, they could deliver a serious bite! Also, if you would like a natural heritage T-Shirt featuring a tribute to the extinct fishes of Ohio (great artwork on the shirt) just contact me and I can send you the link. I wonder just how big some of these freshwater monsters actually were before human settlement on this continent! http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.magikglasses.com/cannibol/abodream/etcimages/gar.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.magikglasses.com/cannibol/abodream/pages/missing.htm&usg=__lQaUcbIgV6r0-U_X5-fmgA6e_TM=&h=410&w=719&sz=43&hl=en&start=4&um=1&tbnid=asQkNwTZCiZBDM:&tbnh=80&tbnw=140&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dgiant%2Balligator%2Bgar%26hl%3Den%26um%3D1

MTS, If you read back through this thread... You will have had the question answered. I attempted to address them several times.

Do we know what types of animals/exhibits this project will have? Has anyone here been to a aquarium managed by this group? Why can't we wait to here more, before saying it will not work? Just curious... When was the last time you visited the Cleveland Zoo's aquatics exhibit?

I had a look at this.. Wonderful....really.. I hope it does well.. But again, yet another establishment serving predominantly meat dishes, and that's fine.....But I'll say it again, if this district is going to evolve into a culinary district, as I see often mentioned, it lacks a very important element. An exclusive vegan/vegetarian cuisine venue. There is a lot of money those who prefer a non-meat based diet can spend in this area...and who would like to see more exclusive options such as Vegeterranean in Akron, Ice Cube, Youngstown, and Blossoming Lotus on Kauai... and many others----and not have this excellent cuisine be an afterthought on menus, or 'option'. These places don't just attract vegetarians, they attract many who would like something different for a change. Cannot believe the district still lacks that one exclusive element in what is a very diverse and spectacular menu to be offered. Maybe I'll have to start it myself. And MTS, don't even start. I hope this place does well.... Good to see another void filled. Looks like some pretty nifty things to do with the drinks and chocolate. I was watching on the food channel about the liquid nitrogen infused drinks...and this place looks like it could launch some pretty interesting drink ideas in its own right. The spices in the chocolate are great...It is sort of how the ancient Mayans used to drink it!

Isn't that space somewhat large for another martini bar theme? Or, will it serve a full menu?

When housing large animals, or those which need plenty of space like sharks, size matters. There are other factors about why it matters as well. Indeed, a smaller one could be of quality, but that is bordering something that will not become a destination type aquarium--and soon the novelty will wear off. Aquariums need a draw to work, and they have to be impacting/imposing. The Cleveland Zoo's aquatics exhibit is small, but of very good quality. We already have that right NOW, yet many people do not know it. The PH idea probably would not give us a whole lot more than we already have.

My answer to that would be "No" I cannot see financing what could very likely be an over-sized aquarium store at 55,000 sqf.

There goes Les Nesman!

Great views! Wow...seeing the true rock bottom of the river bed is great...

Hi again and welcome to another wonderful episode of "Aquatic-Urban-Ohio" Today, we shall start downtown and seek the "Emerald Shiner City" The photos are older, all taken on location locally, BUT, the camera was not as good as the great digital ones. But, let's first start on top of the water...then go for a view underwater in shallows of 8 inches to 4 feet (looking straight forward into the photos is looking forward into the stream)...then we will look at some of the fishes. They have great names with which you can exclusively cuss someone out with something like this..... "You're nothing but a NORTHERN HOG SUCKER...HORNY HEAD CHUB SUCKING...BLUNT-NOSED MINNOW... RAINBOW DARTING...STONE ROLLIN' SUCKER!!!" Yes indeed, you can swear using the names of native fishes without swearing at all....AND increase your vocabulary! :clap: So, without hesitation, here we go!....Let's start downtown and move outward... You will find these animals to have wonderful "fishonalities!" In my next post, I will post a couple examples of native habitat replications in aquariums.

Yes it is about balance...and right now, there is hardly balance for a growing number of citizens. I have been somewhat vague on my posts, because I will not get on here and lecture with stats, and articles and references to illustrate what I am saying. That is why I requested offline contact. I also created this thread for people who want to do something about these issues..NOT for people to defend/debate their right to be an imposing self indulgent idiot. (not saying that to you) I would be glad to provide you with a thorough education on this topic, but first you should read the websites I have provided. But here is something to wet the appetite: (I should let you know that I have researched these issues for many many years, so you're not talking to someone brandishing blank statements that cannot be backed up) According to the US Census Bureau, excessive noise is among the top reasons people move out of a neighborhood....(taking their tax money with them, creating sprawl) and this goes for ALL ages and many walks of life. Noise assault is not something that exclusively offends the 'old' ....as many younger people have this unfounded misconception. (but even if it did?? Is that logic to suggest we should not give a crap about the elderly?) It actually ends up driving vitality OUT of any given area, in the LONG run. I will also add that such neighborhood issues, coast to coast, are causing police departments to have to field a barrage of citizen complaints, spending valuable resources on what used to be smoothed over with a simple "please respect the neighbors" request by a neighbor. But when that is requested, 9 out of 10 times it is met with indifference and an "I can do what the BLEEP I want" attitude. Ask any police department what their number one complaint is, and noise disturbances will be right at the top, if not THEEE top. Additionally, municipal councils all over have to spend countless public dollars on redrafting and revamping noise ordinances simply because we now have to make laws to remind people to have common sense and manners, that somehow they were never shown to begin with. So acting-- -just basically respectable to most people---to them, becomes something they are conditioned to think is an encroachment on 'their rights' So, stupidity is levying a huge cost on communities all over. And finally, according to the data I and thousands in the "pro-quality sound-scape" movement (anti-noise pollution) receive on a daily basis from news streams, police departments, articles, etc... Each month, in this country alone, someone is either shot, beaten, or stabbed over a noise incident--and the victim is usually the person who simply requested their neighbor tone it down a bit. Maybe he/she has a child needing sleep. Maybe it is a parent who works in health care and needs a good night's rest to perform the best they can on their job. Whatever the case, it is a growing problem. Part of the reason it has grown from a legal standpoint, is that when the EPA Office On Noise Pollution Abatement was defunded in the early 80's under the Reagan Administration, it opened the flood gates for many companies who produce items like electronics, exhaust pipes, landscaping equipment, HVAC and more, to basically evade the decibel standards that were deemed tolerable or 'acceptable' for a reasonably peaceful community. There is also an inept notion that floats around these days that associates noise with being 'vibrant' This is another story I love to blow up on how absurd it is, but for now I will just ask.. You mean no city in the world was ever vibrant until we made excessive noise? Even the great ancient Rome enacted one of the first city noise ordinances when chariots would make intolerable amounts of noise late at night as they clattered along brick streets--and so ordinance prohibited such activity at a certain set of hours. (muck like flight path curfews with airports) And remember, 'noise' by definition, simply means: 'unwanted sound' ...and it does not have to be loud to be irritating or offensive, left unabated. Whatever the case someone has with a noise issue, let's get this straight...one's so called 'right' to make excessive noise, does not, and never will supersede someone else's right in their own home to reasonable peace and quiet. (domestic peace and tranquility as granted in the constitution) People who try to defend such stupidity in court rarely win--and in fact, when they try and defend it, it really does the anti-noise pollution movement a BIG favor, as it reveals just how stupid some people really are. There is really little--that many types of unnecessary noise have in anything socially redeeming. And I am not talking about the normal chatter of East 4th Street, so please people, don't throw that in this, as you KNOW the difference between what is inappropriate and over the top......for example..... how is a guy driving by on a motorcycle fitted with illegal exhausts, with a screaming gut wrenching obnoxious bellow noise supposed to enhance anyone's sidewalk cafe meal? Most people want to heave up their lunch or look at that going by with a cringe. The argument 'noise adds economic benefits' is critically weak and is defeated all the time. Normal average levels like E.4th.. that's fine, but again, I think most rational people know what I am talking about. I have seen people try and pose this argument against experts and they make fools of themselves all the time. Excessive noise is a form of pollution, a public health issue, and has been regulated for very good reasons. The argument it 'has economic benefits' would be the same as saying 'the river catching fire has economic benefits' Sure, it does for those who have to be paid to clean up the mess, but is that the kind of thing you want to build the economy around? That which is harmful? Just about anything can have economic benefits, but that does not make it right for a communities long term health. Murder has economic benefits in the sale of weapons, but is that what you want driving the economy? If anyone wants to really debate that with the experts, I suggest contacting Dr. Louis Haggler MD. in Oakland, CA., Richard Tur in New York City, and owner of www.noiseoff.org or just look at those websites and see countless articles demonstrating the ill effects that go unseen. There is several years of work associated with studying the effects of noise pollution People who have done such work are not dummies. The group is made up of many credible Drs. Lawyers, Teachers, Scientists, business people, economists, etc.. Check it out. I learned the hard way about this issue, and it opened up my eyes to things I never knew and was shocked to learn. Cannot share it in 10 minutes. The argument that "noise is good for the economy" overall, is simply absurd. Those who educate themselves on this topic will understand why. Noise by itself is a by-product of things we do in a modern economy, but most of it is unwanted sound...as IS the definition of noise. Again..I am not talking about a crowd roaring at a game, a tavern with a concert..and the party scenes where expected noises are contained within a known district. I am talking about anything that encroaches above and beyond what should be humanly expected to be tolerated no matter where you live. Also read about the 'fight or flight' response and how noise assault will result in a sudden rise in blood pressure, adrenaline and aggression. www.noiseoff.org

what we really need are vigilantes :shoot: Trust me... I have said/pondered "Hmmmm" So many times to the thought of finding Paul Kersey! :whip:

I do a presentation talk on noise issues/quality of life for block clubs, if anyone is interested, just drop me a line. For the specific problem of booming vehicles with the 'audio terrorism' weapons disguised as stereos, I have a 24 minute pod cast interview with an expert on the damages of that kind of sound (low frequency coupled with vibration) Just let me know.. I'll be happy to get it for you!

You said it! Everytime I walk past that, I just grin and shake my head wishing something of quality could fill this in soon. Man, even if it was a huge park would be better than a parking lot.

Here is a photo of The Central Stoneroller. It is abundant in N.E. Ohio streams in pools and calmer waters where riffles are nearby. Lots of these within minutes of downtown Cleveland. The average size I have obtained is up to 8" The Stoneroller, with its sucker-like mouth, cleans excess algae off of the stream bottoms, keeping the stream swept clean---and doesn't charge any extra taxes to do so! It eats small crustaceans, worms, algae, and various micro-life on stream bottoms. In the spring, during the breeding season, this relatively copperish brownish fish (males) suddenly bursts into a handsome array of patterns and earth-toned rustic colors---A Copper-gold body with mottled black markings, white underbelly with orange fins trimmed in white and black... and a blueish head. Colors may vary with habitat and region. It also sports the horny head tubercles which helps this fish turn gravel to build a nest, and to compete for females. This can be a brutal time of year, when this small animal is looking for a wedding partner! While watching with a mask and snorkel in spring, the courtship is an awesome sight and they have no fear of humans if you float like a log and do not create any sudden jerky moves. It is a busy city in "Aquatic-Urban-Ohio!" with so much "FIN-Traffic!" This photo was taken by a one time associate of mine, Garold Sneegas in Kansas, who does a lot of photography in the streams of North America.

"If there are people complaining, tell them to stop. You live in New York, but you should probably live in the suburbs," said Liz Houghton, 22, who grew up in the suburbs and now lives in the East Village, where she visited Coyote Ugly early Saturday. Honestly, when I see articles like this with morons condoning excessive or unnecessary noise to justify the anti-social behavior of a few...and at the same time totally disregarding the right of someone to have peace in their OWN home, it again and again just reaffirms the fact those justifying the behavior have no credibility through the eyes of the better percent who get what it means to live in a communal setting. I switch off instantly to that kind of ignorance and disregard. Those who are the loudest rarely if ever see themselves as loud or making a problem. The world will not revolve around their desire to act like they're entitled to behave however they wish and drag everyone else into it. It is not an anarchy. And, I am talking about going beyond the level of what can be considered tolerable noise levels in any area. They always hang themselves in a court of law if this stuff is ever disputed. This culture of loud and rude......where being rude is made to look cool and imposed on everyone whether they want it or not, is pervasive. It is because too many people keep insisting they have some kind of "right" to impose their behavior on everyone else, no matter where they are and when ("I'm entitled") that makes it pretty much impossible to escape the kind of stupidity that drags everyone else into someone else's self indulgence to be overly loud. Instead of the noisemaker telling someone to 'go move' Why doesn't that person instead....learn some common manners? Oh, I guess it is easier to be stupid. Perhaps this is why the noisiest areas produce the highest percentage of kids with learning disabilities. (Actually true fact..see WTO noise reports) Hmmmmm.. What cost will that levy on society in the future? Just look at the World Health Organization's reports on noise and its impact to the human body. Like I said, if anyone really wants to get the low down on negative economic, social, physical and environmental impacts of acoustic assault, go to the websites I listed above. Learn about the "flight or fight" response which is cited by audiologists. Some of these people may want to actually give their noise addicted, audio over-stimulated ear canals an enema...and discover the joy in actually experiencing thought and the sounds of peace for a change. BTW... I am investing in stocks in the hearing aid business, because this country is on the verge of a plague of deafness in people at very young ages. Its already happening and its costly. I party...have partied...have been loud...But you just have to know when enough is enough and not to forcefully drag the entire neighborhood into it. Some people have families, jobs, and actually NEED the simple human basic right/need of a restful night's sleep. God I must be selfish to want that! B.t.w... Anyone who has an extreme noise problem and wants help in abating it, please email me off forum. I started this thread for those who may have a real problem with such ongoing issues, and who are seeking real solutions and which avenues to take to achieve them. Thank You

Thanks so much for the good feedback, everyone! I didn't even get a "where's the old tires and litter" comment! HA! I have always felt it important to know what role this nation's freshwater habitats play in the ultimate health of our oceans, their interdependence, how rivers help construct beaches and so on. If you all get a chance, please read the articles in the links in the first post at the top. Also, if you want to see some great artwork featuring native fishes, see www.americanfishes.com And, for more information about our nation's native aquatic habitats, both fresh and marine, please check out www.nanfa.org I will try and post some great stuff on some of the prehistoric fishes of our region as well. I can even conduct a tour of streams if anyone is interested in going to see this stuff live--as it presents an even more brilliant perspective. Something so diverse and amazing, right under our very own noses...that we often take so much for granted. Anyway, thanks and stay tuned!

Quote from article: "It's amazing to me the numbers of people who don't know there's a NASA center in their community," This is pretty typical as to how disenfranchised so may people are with their city/region and what it offers. Yes, Jpop, it could actually be a good thing to direct more people downtown. Let's hope.

Good comments. There will be some indigenous exhibits--as most good aquariums have to better educate people on their local aquatic resources and to generate a better respect and involvement in their conservation/protection. The Tennessee Aquarium ties them all in from mountain stream habitat all the way to the Atlantic Ocean and beyond. It is really clever! It would contain habitats from around the world. Personally, like you, I am not insistent 'it MUST be on the water" I like the idea of adaptive reuse and to follow the 'non-shoreline' encroachment philosophy as outlined in that essay above attached to the photo---which New Orleans probably wished it had followed several lifetimes ago! I think by doing something right the first time is what will gain better long term public support for such---rather than jumping on the desperate 'let's get this aquarium done quickly at the PH' parade. There is little margin for error in having an aquarium fail. If it does, general perception would likely shun any future attempts with a mentality of.. "Awww..we tried that before and it failed" That which could result from a lack of public understanding between two very different approaches and philosophies. That we do not need. An aquarium is not 'just an aquarium' There is so much more than water and being an over-sized aquarium store. Aren't you assuming that there is a parade? That's disingenuous to think the everyone is for that project or wants it just to say we have an aquarium. If any group of people is in the "do it right the first time" camp it's those of us here. I believe we can have the smaller property that Jacobs and his partners have proposed along with a larger Cleveland Aquarium. Right now Jacobs plan is just that, a preliminary plan, nothing set in stone. Who knows if down the line if he will reach out to others to get more expert opinions as to what will work so that - further down the line - a larger facility can be built that does not overlap what is being built on his property? this thread has really gone down hill as we've gotten of track of what is proposed and gone with what we would like to see. If it is going off track, then let's not make this into a dramatic "Jacob's Vs. C.A." thing. The latest was about the concept of re-using an exiting building on 9th--and the differences in philosophies. How about taking a look at the rendering and see the many fine features...the waterfalls, the aquarium windows, the functioning roof top gardens, the observation perch. That is why the photo was posted..... to show a possibility.

Good comments. There will be some indigenous exhibits--as most good aquariums have to better educate people on their local aquatic resources and to generate a better respect and involvement in their conservation/protection. The Tennessee Aquarium ties them all in from mountain stream habitat all the way to the Atlantic Ocean and beyond. It is really clever! It would contain habitats from around the world. Personally, like you, I am not insistent "it MUST be on the water" I like the idea of adaptive reuse and to follow the 'non-shoreline' encroachment philosophy as outlined in that essay above attached to the photo---which New Orleans probably wished it had followed several lifetimes ago! I think by doing something right the first time is what will gain better long term public support for such---rather than jumping on the desperate 'let's get this aquarium done quickly at the PH' parade. There is little margin for error in having an aquarium fail. If it does, general perception would likely shun any future attempts with a mentality of.. "Awww..we tried that before and it failed" Such perception could result from a lack of public understanding between two very different approaches and philosophies. That we do not need. An aquarium is not 'just an aquarium' There is so much more than water and being an over-sized aquarium store.

Another bar? (sigh!) I used to like City Buddha...Bought lots of things there. Don't get me wrong, I think GB is great, though, but I'd like to stroll and be able to see a little more.

So why do some cities have two and they work nicely?? Why is it necessary to have a defeatist attitude from jump instead of noting that these venues can have two different functions. And cater to both groups, with the smaller venue having specifi exhibits and the larger being similar to the metro parks zoo with research and learning centers. If built, marketed and executed propertly, they both can be viable attractions. It is not a defeatist attitude. If you want to see something we can all really be proud of...You really should read the letter that outlines the CA vision. My question is why act so desperate to latch onto this PH thing? Like the old saying goes.. "There is never enough time to do it right the first time...But always enough time to do it over" Again, why can't we have TWO well done venues??? Saying we can't is like saying - I'm throwing in a retail analogy - that we can only have one mall. Beachwood exist and so does Southland. There serve two different communities and two different target audiences, but both are malls with some overlaping stores. Are you reading? Go back and read my posts again. The mall analogy is poor. We have built too many malls in N.E. Ohio, and look how many are struggling or empty. Apply the similar concept here.

Please read reply #151 With its limitations, would you want to see a PH aquarium end up failing and be yet another stupid shot people can take at Cleveland failures? IMHO..with the PH concept and what drives it...You're really asking for it.

So why do some cities have two and they work nicely?? Why is it necessary to have a defeatist attitude from jump instead of noting that these venues can have two different functions. And cater to both groups, with the smaller venue having specifi exhibits and the larger being similar to the metro parks zoo with research and learning centers. If built, marketed and executed propertly, they both can be viable attractions. It is not a defeatist attitude. If you want to see something we can all really be proud of...You really should read the letter that outlines the CA vision. My question is why act so desperate to latch onto this PH thing? Like the old saying goes.. "There is never enough time to do it right the first time...But always enough time to do it over"