Etheostoma Caeruleum

I agree...could be bad benchmarks.. . Makes me think of the quote......"It is no measure of good health to be well adjusted to a sick society"

Well, all I can say after reading these posts is...if it happens..and you can't hide it, then decorate it! At least make it the best it can be. No big setbacks, give it some curb appeal. I still prefer these to be set on the side streets as there are plenty of other areas for it. Wait...come to think of this again.... This whole issue is about the stigma attached to a kook hospital. Ok.. I tend to agree that as Cleveland's main and grand avenue, we should not have it serving as a tribute and testament to ill-social health. That irritates me as much as I see countless people abusing disability tags, hanging from their car mirrors as though they were some sort of air freshener....advertising to the world how sick we are. Now we will present ill social health along the main avenue through Cleveland. I think this say something about where priorities have evolved.

"not blindly opposed to growth....but rather, opposed to blind growth"

I cannot believe RTA has not extended transit in the region by now. It is basically the same since the 60's I wrote to them several times about the need for this to re-connect the region to also help in producing a more broad and diverse demographic of riders. They seldom return inquests about anything. This is a county transportation network, yet the light rail predominantly serves only the city limits proper, and a couple older inner ring areas. It needs to be updated to meet the regional needs, otherwise they are NOT a regional transportation authority as titled.

I would call the parks department, and even Downtown Cleveland Alliance to see if they can suggest something, but I lack faith in whoever answers the phone there. I am going to call the parks department. The reason I mention DTA is because it was an issue at a recent meeting, so they may have a taking to this subject. Most of the numbers in City Government are found on their website.

Can we get a photo of the building?

Where did the 100$ price tag come from and what makes Ohio 'anti-transit'? You think Ohioans are very pro-transit? I do not. I do not think the people on here are any way indicative of the way many Ohioans feel. They like their cars and highways. While I completely disagree with them, I think it's the prevailing thought. I interviewed Stu Nicholson once and he referred me to the online plan. While this was about 2 years ago, it said the one-way price from Cle-Cin would be about $95. All I am saying is that I think it is too high. No need to go on rants simply bc we disagree. IF Ohioans are not, for the most part, seen as 'pro-transit'...it is very likely because all the choice in landscape and transport they have been given for the last 50 years is automobile dominant. That does not mean it cannot change when people are actually given a choice...and if rail had the luxury of advertising, subsidy, and promotion as do cars and highways. It is important to realize how much such promotion and marketing shapes our lifestyles and opinions.

Yes, I agree totally. I hope we don't lose the nice buffer zones we have between the two places, though, that actually is appealing. No more parking lots in Middlefield. Homes in places I wonder who the heck is buying them and who moving from inner Cleveland, if so, could afford them. It baffles me. By the way Moses Warren, for whom warren was named, was part of Moses Cleaveland's surveying team from Conn. People directly in Cleveland used to have to go to Warren to do their tax work..pay them, etc. When I was in Sydney for a while, it was not uncommon for people who lived as far outside the center of the city..as Warren is to downtown Cleveland, to still consider themselves as Sydney folk.

I think we should all call the city on this simultaneously. Any takers? And yes, something seems demoralizing about the fountains not working. Water is life....and as long as water is flowing, there seems to be hope and life. When the water stops... I think subconsciously we see the former going the other way.

Referring to the 'culture of poverty' and its deterrent to people living in the core or how it relates to schools. I understand about cause and effect factors and trickle down situations that breed other bad situations, but at some point we need to stop blaming unsavory behavior, living/educational conditions on the fact someone or someplace is poor. Maybe we need to tweak our philosophies on this a bit and not always assume poverty has to equal :shoot: I know this is different, but maybe we can learn from it..... When I was in Italy, some of the poorest neighborhoods were among the most charming, ate the best healthy for the body and mind foods, had the nicest people and were quiet places that actually felt safe, etc. When you have nothing, you have one thing left. Pride. Pride is free, and so apparently people in such a place want to at least take care of what little they have, and not fall 'victim of oppression.' They value what they have. And not everyone who has been poor in this country or others, resort to the kinds of inappropriate behavior, activity, crimes, etc..etc..that is often blamed on poverty itself. Somehow by saying this, I will likely be accused of being a racist if I even go in this direction, because someone is always ready to prejudge and deal that card, instead of taking the time to find any merit in what I am expressing. The more society can hide behind the crutch of an excuse, the more the standards lower...and the more the standards lower..the less accountability we place on people from all walks of life. Sadly, those actions of so called poverty and despair, are what scare a lot of people away from living in any given place. It does not mean crimes, etc do not exist in places we don't associate it to be. Those kinds of places are just better at hiding it so such scenarios are less visually dramatic when no one is looking, or media does not cover the fact that there are problems like that in affluent areas. It is always easier to blame everything on where most associate these problems as being obvious. That alone, is why such poorer places need to resist fulfilling these books. Whether the fears people have of the inner city/schools/crime, etc are well founded or not, is not the point. The point is, is that it is the bad image they project of any given neighborhood...or school system. There is no nobility in crime and poverty, yet we so often have a media industry that is very influential...and glamorizes anti-social and bad behavior more than ever before to a whole new level......and sadly, this is too often the role model many parentless homes have...or homes where you have kids raising kids..and kids having kids. It is a horrible cycle. It is time to become educated on what influences result in negative unsocially redeeming value, or behavior in children who will have this as their role model--and then steer youth away from it and to alternative values and activity that will be more fruitful in society, and self rewarding. Leaders of neighborhoods and communities need to take the responsibility to start doing this. It does not take a loads of cash to share fruitful values that can result in someone being the best they can be in society. If the youth is the cornerstone of the future--the foundation, then we cannot rest a future on what is a self destructive crumbling foundation. To make/plant seeds of change, sometimes it really is that simple. Better neighbors, good behavior, can do a world of wonder in helping to stop people from moving any given area only to take the neighborhood vitality with them. Personally, I have had bad neighbors in what looked to be the nicest places..and nicest in the worst perceived places. That is just how I see it from my life experiences. I do know one thing for certain. Ohio cannot have its metro areas continue to be sprawling into oblivion leaving a wake of decline before every new ring. It is not sustainable, economically, environmentally, or socially. At the end of the day, it will have to come down to people facing inconvenient truths...in that we will have to start building our economy around needs rather than wants...and debunk the chamber driven myth that doing so would mean we compromise our quality of life. We might discover a whole new sense of self worth and fulfillment in the process. See the website The Center For A New American Dream which challenges the mentality that 'more is better.'

Love the carousel. I sense great concern that where installed, whether it will be taken care of properly and not destroyed. Remember, it seems the city cannot even look after something as simple as fountains in the square. I think this will take a private philanthropic effort-as with many things aimed at getting a lot rolling again.

Granted, it can be difficult with the transportation scene we have evolved into, but we can cut back a lot. It feels good to have accomplished this too. At the same time, because it can be hard to go totally carless, is a sad testament to how our transportation department in this country has failed miserably to promote and implement alternative modes. It wasn't too too long ago where one COULD actually go carless. But I see your concerns. More people are even trying to work from home these days to reduce dependency on the car.

Designated "Quiet Cars" are commonplace on the NEC trains. Since the 3-C will probably start out with 3 coaches, I'm not sure we'll have such a thing initially. I was in Lourdes, France for a few days in 2005. I was surprised at how quiet it was and how light the traffic was for such a busy tourist city (Lourdes is second only to Paris for the number of hotel beds in a French city). Of course, the frequent train service, including 4 TGV's per day, local transit, and the pre-automobile design of the city are the reasons why. There was no constant din of traffic noise in the background. The streets were vibrant but not annoyingly noisy at night. It is a correct statement that we're so auto dependent in the US and so used to our automobile-centric land use that few Americans can comprehend that it's possible to live any other way. Indeed, a very good example. Think back before a lot of automation, where at least that kind of noise wouldn't have existed. By adhering to the delusional idea that 'noise makes vibrant' Then that would mean that no city before the noise came, would have been vibrant? I am glad you brought out the example of how reasonable peace actually makes for an attractive quality. On the other hand, aside from the obnoxious noises described above, a train in the distance, a hoot from the barge, a church bell now and then...all can add a touch of character, indeed. I don't want to come across as someone who thinks all surroundings are always going to be a quiet as a church, granted. But I don't know how---while sitting on a summer day on a sidewalk cafe trying to enjoy a meal--an illegally modified exhaust on a car/motorcycle making a brain splitting,ear ripping and gut wrenching acoustic assault, is supposed to enhance the experience---or a boom car that you can feel shaking your guts, liver and brains. I see kids being strapped in the back of those seats like some kind of sacrifice while speakers blow their brains out. Meanwhile the driver has no clue to what is going on around him. I wonder who will pay the price of special ed when they're deaf by the time they're 16. All in all, I would hope trains offer cars that will not have to have their passengers forced to listen to someone else's desire to be loud. If it is an environment that is not conducive to quality, a lot of potential riders won't ride. I hope it would not be the case. I know that is sort of off topic, but linked no doubt, and something to consider for the respect of all passengers. On this price discussion.. Geeeez! I hope it would not cost a lot for a family to travel, or it would defeat some of the purpose. Again, sorry for the somewhat rant. Prune me if you have too, I mean no harm.

327, Small world! We lived on Mahoning from 1955 through 1978 on the corner across from the pool. I remember hearing the fountains at night and it would lull us to sleep with warm balmy breezes coming through in the summer time. You could not do that today, however, as the noise is atrocious on that corner. It always had a lot of traffic, but NOT the kind of noise it gets today from illegally modified exhausts and boom cars constantly roving by. This is a big issue city council is addressing now in their quality of life issue focus. I like the Amphitheater too, loved the idea, think it is a great addition......But there is one major flaw with it from a geological perspective--that could prove costly. And that is, it is built right smack dab in a flood plane. It already has seen numerous wash outs destroying a lot of the work, that the city never has enough resources to go out and fix, anyway. I predicted this would happen. I used to play softball in that park and witnessed numerous times the entore park being under 2 to 3 feet of water... When I volunteered for a long time on a river restoration group, The Mahoning River Consortium, which was working in collaboration with people from YSU, WCI Steel, and Ohio-EPA..and many other groups, all of us, and even the guy who wrote the original plan for the amphitheater suggested tweaking the design to be moved away from that spot a bit, without compromising any qualities it had.....but it never happened because the ecologically challenged and stubborn Trumbull 100 did not want to hear it and would rather have called any who spoke on that as naysayers, instead of becoming enlightened on something they knew nothing about. It violated all kinds of ACOE regs, and did not have a positive bio-impact on the river, which was what the city was trying to demonstrate it could do at the time. Additionally, another mistake was to remove all the trees from the very soil sensitive banks of the Mahoning. Already, there is erosion...and trash flying all over from events. Again this city often bites off more than it can chew, and lacks the resources to clean up messes. I loved the idea of the amphitheater..and while it does look good from a view perspective, there are many logical reasons it should not have been paced quite in the spot where it was. On other notes.. You hit it perfectly. Warren seems to be the last bastion of historic urban spots in N.E. Ohio that has not quite grasped the concept of keeping it historic and urban and functional. It is surrounded with sprawl in a place that you would have never thought you would get sprawl. What was done to Route 46, the complete conversion of residential to large big box commercial sprawl retail with absolutely NO regard for linking it with foot paths or making it walkable, is a prime example. The road was widened, and still it has not soled the traffic problem.---because they keep adding more crappy developments. Many are also empty, because they have totally over built retail in that area. I have attended numerous council meetings for years and most of the time the council hasn't a clue. They make Cleveland look like some wise ancient culture of Platos and Socrates-likes in comparison. I always tried to promote making downtown functional for a walkiing neighborhood...and the city in general, while at the same time, preserve its environmental integrity. The river for example is quite unique in Warren. Unlike so many other rivers which flowed through industrial corridors, the Mahoning still has a surprising amount of valuable riparian zone, which has so many important functions--that ultimately save people money. It is beautiful to see, right in the middle of the city, these huge cottonwood trees still standing, and lush green banks. Great canoe, hiking, and photography area. I wanted to promote using already cleared out areas along the river to implement any development, while maintaining that lush urban forest. The powers that be, however, were still in the 70's on that one, because they would have just as well removed all of it and paved in all the banks with cement and planted tulips and mulch from Home Depot. There are also some huge sycamore trees there, a signature tree defining Ohio's natural heritage in history. They're amazing, one is a state champ, I believe. At one time th river was so densely forested, that trees reached out to meet each other in the middle of the river. (their limbs) forming a tunnel, like trees along roads do. It is frustrating to see this potential for Warren to be a sort of... what I describe as a 'far eastern satellite suburb' type city just under an hour S.E. of the center of Cleveland. (a 'moon' city to the south east, so to speak) and for it to be a bedroom community..and see what plagues its historical neighborhoods. There ARE good things happening though, but it could really use a boost in old house lovers reclaiming the side street neighborhoods off Mahoning. There are some great old houses there...and any empty right now are under the threat of demolition. No one wants to tear down the history, but such a town faces a double edged sword if it is left forever. There also used to be 5 trains a day that went right to Cleveland.. I think it was 5. I don't remember the polka station, though posted by the other poster. I'll bet if you lived on Mahoning, we may have known the same people. Do you remember all the shows Kenley Players used to bring to Warren? Some pretty big name acts! The old Brown Derby was still open at the time.

No one will likely read this.. I was just looking at this thread and wanted to say that the first photo on this thread...the white bank building, is actually an historic building underneath... covered in a facade. Also, in the other old Second National Building, there is still an old style cage-like elevator with a person who operates it for you! "What floor please?" Very fun! I am originally from Warren.... Great architecture...Great potential for people to move there, get a cheap house and go at it. Most of the neighborhoods are safe..and even in the not so nice ones..they are still relatively safe. There is a chronic noise problem Warren is trying to battle in their neighborhoods (illegally modified exhausts on cars/motorcycles..and boom cars)--but they're laying out some really progressive quality of life ordinances. Also, another uniqe thing for you back yard wildlife enthusiats. (bird/butterfly/fish/native plants gardens) city ordinance allows for a back yards for wildlife style landscape as prescribed by ODNR. I pushed to get that going when I lived there....and it is a progressive ordinance. Lastly, Most of the original Main Street is gone and other significant buildings like all the schools have been torn down in the last few years. (long story as to why)...An ice skating rink is on the square in Winter, and Santa frequents the Log Cabin....and also the one bad thing is that in many parts, it seems to have become the recruiting grounds for the Jerry Springer Show, so Cortland Girl's posts were correct! Ha! Just thought I would post this in case anyone else happens to stumble upon this thread. It is like throwing out a message in bottle!

Any news on this thread about the trolleys? What a waste if they're let go.

Just saw these.. In one photo to the east... You can clearly see where the Allegheny Plateau begins to rise.

I agree, this bldg was better off not being remembered. The Sahara on the other hand would have been great. Just curious.. Is that Sahara still there?

Haha! Thanks.. I wish! I am an inexhaustible source for crazy ideas and letters... Getting them going is where I have to pass the torch. By the way, is the fountain still gurgling? Man, they're not that hard to maintain. I used to install ponds with fountains.

Good letter. Once people get the hang of, and understand the benefits of round-a-bouts, most of the time, they'll prefer them. At least I do. They save energy, wrecks, and avoid congestion. I can envision a whole center square park with only roads going around the perimeter... (such as Lincoln Park in Tremont--Courthouse Square, over in Warren) I'm no planner/designer...but maybe they could be curved of course to avoid right angles... Then maybe we'd have to change the name to "Public Circle" For now, I just wish it could be taken care of as good as it can be so it doesn't become "Public Scare" It would be good to send that letter to the planning commission.

Someone mentioned: "Yeah, I was a bit worried that the background noise would be a little too much, but I think it adds to the vibrant discussion! Urban life! City noise! Excitement! ;)" I know this is a bit off topic... But please don't say that. Noise, many kinds of unnecessary types, do nothing to enhance quality of life anywhere, and in fact erodes it and neighborhoods via the broken window theory. Illegal exhausts, booming audio assault, relentless landscaping tool noise.. Top three most frequent complaints in police departments..and noise in general, is one of the number one driving forces causing people to move, (US Census) It has negative impacts, physically, socially, environmentally and economically--to all, young and old. There is a common misconception that large cities and populations have to be, or are noisy. Check out www.noiseoff.org to read about the negative unseen/recognized impacts. Particular types...excessive and unnecessary noise does not make for a vibrant place. Please read that website and learn why it plagues communities coast to coast big and small, young and old..and about the misconceptions that a city has to be loud. (I am talking about noises with no socially redeeming value that are already illegal in municipal ordinances) I do talks on this issue all the time for community block clubs and have done it for years. Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

I have family just east of Cleveland specifically in Yo/War... For once, it would be nice on a summer day...afternoon...to walk downtown...catch the train under the tower... take a book, relax..and just forget about traffic. I had many friends come here from Australia and they could not believe that we were not linked by train. I explained how it used to be and all the infrastructure was there, etc. Still, because so many of them take the train as far as 3 hours to the south of the center of Sydney... (by the way, many there consider their train network to be antiquated...but at least they have one!) and then seeing Greater Cleveland/N.E. Ohio outside of the light rail options.... the scenario is... Unless you drive, get someone to drive, carpool, bus, etc... You are still limited to the road! To me it is still unbelievable that people have become so used to having to drive everywhere...that they cannot even fathom another way! It frustrates the hell out of me to try and get through to people who have for so long been used to that scene...And all you have to do is look to their grandparents/great grandparents to see a generation that knew all about taking trains, walking, and the car was secondary. How so much lifestyle was lost in so little time. Our freeways are pathetically clogged and ad night, rest stops are overtaken by trucks spewing out fumes. Bring these trains back...let 'em roll! And last, if trains had the luxury of the marketing and subsidy that promotes flying and driving.... Then more people who would have otherwise never thought of it....would take the trains. I just hope in this day and age, that on a train like the 3 c...that operators assure the peace and comfort of their passengers by prohibiting people with i-pods to be playing them so loudly, that everyone else is forced to hear it. Unfortunately too often these days you have to make laws/rules to make people exercise manners and common sense.

I just hope I live long enough to see the kinds of transportation options my parents once witnessed... and live long enough to at least see the Three C C actually move so I can use it. In this supposed land of choice... Where is my choice to not be forced to have to rely on the car to go certain places! What a horrible car habit we've developed..and worse, some cannot even fathom any other way because this is all that has been fed to them for 50 plus years!

Great place! I visit it a lot. Please will someone tell management to rid the property of that offensive Pepsi machine near the beginning of the Birch Alley!

Hey.. Just getting back to some of the earlier posts about the fountains on the square.... I have written to some people about this issue. These are among the simplest things that can be done to keep the spirit up on the square. The city workers are paid by the people and part of the job in maintaining the square is seeing that the fountains (or anywhere where there is a fountain for that matter) get maintained. Since supposedly, no one is allowed to do this work except them...How convenient is it for them to slack off on this particular job with no challenge. All they need to do is hide behind the shield of the union. Sooo, not how it is intended to be. As I said, these are little things that should be done and not doing them, says a lot about management. Same with the priority of safety on the square. No matter how well this can be designed...if the little follow up things are not kept after...it will remain not as welcoming as it should be. Littering, loitering, etc... Gotta keep after that. I have also seen police not do a darn thing when obviously they should have been out there breaking something up. (what went on is another story) These are reasons the Alliance was born. It is about taking back this space. One other note, although not totally square related...is my issue on the nearby Higbee Building where all the flag poles on Ontario jut out over the walks (another area needing better night lighting and security) A simple thing that can be done to make a noteworthy difference and add a festive appearance...would be to get some flags up again, perhaps representing the many nationalities of the region...or even sell a flag for a classy designed advertisement. (nothing tacky..as advertising can be tacky in its own right) I don't know how many times I have written about doing little things that can make a big difference. I even suggested flags at the top of the Veterans Bridge. The Harbour Bridge in Sydney has them...similar bridge design..and it adds some flair to the city. Anyway, sorry but when the fountains run dry..it sends a message something else is running dry. Not good. Lastly, I envision all traffic routing around the outer perimeter of the square.. round-a-bout style would be good.