WestBLVD

Some great historical images of the West Shoreway here: http://images.ulib.csuohio.edu/cdm/search/searchterm/bulkley!jpeg%20jpg!bulkley%20blvd/field/all!format!all/mode/all!any!all/conn/and!and!and/order/nosort/ad/asc Many places look identical today to the way it did in 1940. I wonder why pedestrian elements were left out way back then? It seems that would have been pretty much standard in that era.

"Jackson marveled at views of downtown from Edgewater, where stately mansions overlook Lake Erie. He used the moment to plug his proposal to turn the West Shoreway, a short stretch of freeway connecting the neighborhood to downtown, into a boulevard. Doing so would open up new housing and commercial opportunities, Jackson asserted, paving the way for higher-income taxpayers to settle into coveted real estate. Interesting. I wonder if the plans really will allow for parcels to be developed along the new boulevard with driveways as Jackson hints. Or if this is just the same old shoreway with landscaped medians.

Quiz over. You scored 138 out of 165. Your score is 83%. I wish I'd have done better. Most Americans struggle with their own country's geography, let alone Africa. I'm willing to bet that the average American could pick out Morocco, Egypt, South Africa, and Madagascar on a map of Africa, but that's about it.

Yep. Think of how many people live within just 5 blocks of the church on 117th/Lake, let alone a mile! It's very interesting. This would have been a game changer for retail and residential in Edgewater-Cudell/Gold Coast-Lakewood, but now it's a retail and residential game changer for downtown. It's amazing how this open parcel with a historic rotunda and the highest population density in Ohio wasn't good enough for Heinen's, but somehow downtown was. I do think this might be the start of a larger trend of depopulating the Gold Coast/Edgewater in favor of downtown. It's going to be hard for the Gold Coast/Edgewater to compete as updated units continually come on the market in downtown while this neighborhood stagnates in housing and retail. I'm optimistic for Enhance Clifton, but I feel it might have been 2 or 3 years too late. We'll see what inevitably goes in at the corner of Clifton/117th. In my opinion that chain link fenced weed lot is 10x more of an eyesore/blight than that empty Giant Eagle ever was. When you see the new builds/renovations in the works for Detroit Shoreway and Ohio City, you've got to think this parcel is only 2 or 3 years away from something respectable. But how long are developers willing to keep it vacant before we get a less than desirable retail strip? I guess the consolation prize to 117th is that I can now drive and park in front of a GFS to buy a 10 lb can of peaches.

Here are the current and future ward maps for the west side areas of Cleveland. You can see how fragmented the representation is for the Cudell area and it doesn't look to change all that much. How much will Zone be willing to work on his tiny parts of Cudell when his ward encompasses so many other "high priority" Cleveland neighborhoods?

While i do believe Zone will continue the majority of his efforts in the Gordon Square area, i think he will do a much better job than Westbrook in Cudell. Not quite sure what the solution is, but having dealt with both of them I think Zone takes these incidents more personally and will work tirelessly to try and correct Take a look at the ward maps. A lot of this area is actually in Ward 17 (soon to become Ward 11) which is actually Dona Brady's area. The area on Detroit Avenue from about West 93rd to West 110th will remain her ward. Currently Cudell is cut in thirds by different wards. It's currently no councilperson's "main area" soon it will be part of 2 wards, once again on the fringes of the councilpersons "main areas". I'm sure the lack of having this neighborhood under one councilperson certainly doesn't help it!

As a resident of the area, it's a shame how unsafe the area has become. Last year there were incidents of groups of youth on bikes that attacked 3 different pedestrians in different spots on Detroit and Clifton near West Blvd in the early evening hours. Just look at the crime stats for this section of Detroit Avenue. Scary. It's the crimes against random pedestrians that scare me the most. You can't have a successful neighborhood when residents have to live in fear of being attacked when they go for a walk or patronize a local business. It's a shame because this neighborhood has great infrastructure. It's one of the few residential neighborhoods on the red line that has a mix of high quality single family homes and density. But until this neighborhood becomes safe again, there won't be any new developments ... especially when sections of Detroit a mile in either direction are much safer and subsequently have better amenities.

With regards to hubs and such, here are some numbers to put things into perspective (based off Bureau of Transportation Statistics) 2012 stats: CLE: 8.4 million passengers (HUB for United) CVG: 5.6 million passengers (HUB for Delta) CMH: 6.1 million passengers (not a hub) CAK: 1.8 million passengers (not a hub) DAY: 2.6 million passengers (not a hub) Columbus isn't even a hub, but has more passengers than the Delta hub at CVG. Obviously, there's pull from CVG to Dayton and Louisville, but it puts things into perspective. Likewise CLE has some pull to Akron/Canton. Austin, TX had 9.1 million passengers last year and it's not a hub. That shows you how there's a significant demand for air travel there despite the immediate metro area being smaller than the Cleveland MSA. The Austin airport is also only 75 miles from San Antonio's airport, which carried 7.6 million passengers last year (also not a hub). So, it's a bit easier to see how Austin is supporting this trans Atlantic flight. There's a huge growing economy there, with higher air travel demand, and it's super close to another rather large metro. To put the CLE hub into perspective for other similarly sized metros (for the most part non touristy places): 2012 stats: CLE: 8.4 million (Cleveland - hub for United) IND: 7.0 million (Indianapolis - not a hub) PIT: 7.6 million (Pittsburgh - not a hub) SMF: 8.6 million (Sacramento - not a hub) MCI: 9.5 million (Kansas City - not a hub) STL: 12.2 million (St. Louis - not a hub - Southwest Focus City) CLT: 37.2 million (Charlotte - hub for US Airways) When you look at those numbers, it puts into perspective how small the hub is in Cleveland. With so much of it dependent on origin and destination traffic, if CLE was ever dehubbed, you wouldn't see a catastrophic drop in passenger levels like CVG or Memphis or Pittsburgh. Even Buffalo (non hub), with roughly half the population of the Cleveland area, had 5.1 million passengers last year. There's not much left that United could cut at CLE, without some other carrier coming in and adding capacity elsewhere. Of course, that might come at the expense of some destination eliminations in favor of larger aircraft to hubs (which tend to be the more popular destinations anyway). With that said, CLE really needs to get its act together to build a new terminal/concourse. The new floors are kind of a joke. I happened to be at the airport for a flight one day when they were unveiling the new B concourse's floors. The mayor was there with a TV crew and dozens of staffers. They lifted off a sheet to show off the new floor. Everyone cheered. It was pathetic. Now, a few months later, you can't even tell those floors are new, they don't even look special. It would be nice if they just started new with one large long concourse and keep a moving underground walkway to D. I could see something where they tear down A and start new. Then tear down B and extend A over some more. Then they could build to the immediate west of C, still allowing use of all the southern and eastern C gates. So once completed you'd have one large arc shaped concourse starting from the end of A now to the large circular end of C with a walkway under to D. I'm sure something like this would take several years, but considering there are plenty of gates at CLE, it could be done in stages. Otherwise, there's no other available space to just build new and transfer all operations on a set day to a midfield terminal like so many other cities have done. EDIT: Sorry! Those numbers above are domestic flights. I forgot to add the int'l flights. For the Ohio airports, those passenger counts aren't terribly higher. You can tack on about 225k a year for CLE (regional jet flights to Montreal/Toronto and tourist Caribbean flights), 210K a year for CVG (half of those are to Paris), and 30k a year for CMH (a flight to Toronto).

I'd imagine the Cleveland business community has a diverse set of European destinations that they fly to. Having just one Heathrow flight might "look great" and be great PR, but if you're a business traveler heading to Paris or Frankfurt it does you no good. What's the benefit of choosing a 757 at only one time of day from CLE and then connect in Europe (assuming there's a good selection of flights on your carrier's alliance)? One could just as easily ferry over to EWR and have a plethora of options. It's rather easy traveling trans Atlantic from Cleveland. You've got a multitude of one connection options that get you pretty much anywhere. Adding one trans Atlantic flight is only good for those who want to end up at the new flight's destination at the time the airline chooses. If you're going anywhere else, taking that flight doesn't seem too attractive. Don't forget that a faster than connecting option exists by driving 2 hrs to Detroit and taking one of their dozens of international nonstops to Asia, Europe, and South America. I've done this with ease on multiple occasions. There are a handful of cities that have their sole trans Atlantic flight, and it likely works for them because their business market supports that city. The problem with CLE is finding the city and aircraft that the business community will support. You'll have the group that wants Rome, the group for London, Paris, Dublin, Frankfurt, and so forth. If their city isn't selected, they won't bother with the flight.

I agree. I was only saying that because downtown is one of only a handful of places in the city proper that's growing. 95% of Cleveland is still shrinking. So until those other census tracts and neighborhoods start to see population increases, the city is going to continue to lose population. However, I look at West Blvd/Detroit/Madison. It's a very walkable neighborhood that has walking distance access to the Rapid. It has a great mix of housing stock. It is within reasonable walking distance to the lake and parks. There's a good mix of historic street fronting retail. There are numerous busses. Getting downtown is an easy 15 minute bike ride or an equivalent bus or rapid ride. Yet at the same time it's becoming blighted in spots year after year and continues to lose population year after year. Perhaps it's just a matter of time before TOD takes off here. But at the same time, it's got a lot of what everyone says a great urban neighborhood needs to attract people. Yet, the people are not coming, and it's a net loss year after year. I think that might speak more about demand for housing in Cleveland. There are only so many young people desiring housing in Cleveland and they are concentrating in specific areas. Other metros feel the pinch of high rents, so young people look for cheaper areas. By comparison, the "trendy" areas in Cleveland are relatively cheap. It's not too hard to find rental units in Tremont/OC for most people's budgets, so the need to spill over into other areas has been slow. But to bring this back on topic. It's an interesting trend. Young people are definitely desiring an urban setting, and with that generally comes a need for less driving. I think we'll see driving plummet if the big companies start relocating back from their suburban office parks. I wonder what percent of 25-35 year olds that live in Downtown/Tremont/Ohio City actually get in their cars and drive to Mayfield/Independence/Westlake for work every morning? Once those companies start coming back to the core, is when you'll see the real change happen.

Of course with downtown Cleveland, you had so few people living there 20 years ago, so of course growth will be explosive. However that study is defining Downtown, they come up with 9,098 residents. To put that in perspective, that's just a measly 2.3% of the City of Cleveland's population and just 0.7% of Cuyahoga County's population. So while growth rates are high, the base population is low that it has negligible effects on total city population. So yes, downtown is one of the few places growing in Cleveland and the population has more than doubled in a few decades. However, downtown Cleveland would have had to grow by at least 1,800% in recent decades just for the city as a whole to break even.

What a horrible building. Just the worst possible timing to put that hideous structure in. I can't believe the city couldn't even get it to front the street like all the other buildings around it. Very, very sad. That was a very interesting read. It's also evidence that if Cleveland is going to grow its population, it'll likely be through immigration and strengthening first and second generation communities to rebuild existing neighborhoods in the city. It's also interesting to get a different perspective on what other people believe Cleveland and NEO to be. "We’d moved to Cleveland for his work, and I didn’t know how we’d fit into a region known for whiteness and farms." It's hard for me to even imagine that people would expect Cleveland to be like this. Let alone the area around Lorain/ W 117th.

I happened to be walking by the other night during that. There were a lot of photographers. I just assumed it was some sort of promotional shoot. Nonetheless it was very cool to watch and sunset made for a great backdrop. On a side note, the constant northerly winds the past month have made for some very poor water quality conditions. It was very hard to find a spot at Edgewater that didn't have a lot of muck to wade through.

Yeah. I think many on this board are taking this only for its transit value and not taking it for the attraction that it is. People will ride this just to ride it. By building this, you are actually adding value to the attractions that already exist. It's one more thing downtown to pull people in for an extended period. People will end up spending a whole day doing attractions downtown and along the lake. This would also be a great venue for watching the sunset. I'd definitely ride this at least once a month for its entertainment value. But with that said, I just don't see how this can be privately done cost wise without astronomical ticket prices. The full price tag for something like this has to be staggering. Let alone the legal aspects of rights of way, Burke Airport flight path, and purchasing property for the masts that would hold up the skylift at regular intervals..

Of course not! That's crazy. It hinges on the need for realistic plans for population growth. If we as a region are content with "managing decline" ... ouch in the near future ... But it's a sobering thought. If we keep building new, without population gain, what's going to happen to some neighborhoods considered stable today in 10, 20, 30 years? We will most certainly have to remove vacant units at an accelerating rate. This of course puts burden on infrastructure when neighborhood density is lost. Also, who wants to live on a street where half the homes are now weed lots. Which of course turns into land bank policy. It's complex. The ideal situation is restoring neighborhoods through rehabs of vacant properties. But that's challenging. Perhaps gutting vacant 20 unit apartment buildings and turning them into 10 or 15 unit buildings would work. You reduce supply, preserve architecture, and provide a new product. The same could be said for double to single home conversions. But obviously this won't work everywhere.

That's actually a great example. Lets say a couple from Strongsville move downtown to a brand new unit added to the market. Since on a whole Cuyahoga County loses population, one more vacancy will be created somewhere. It could be that a family from Fairview Park moves in the Strongsville home. Their house is sold to someone from Brooklyn. The house in Brooklyn has tenants move in from an apt in Westpark. That apartment has tenants move from an apt building on Madison in Cleveland. The landlord can't find any tenant to take the Madison apartment, it becomes vacant and eventually the whole building becomes vacant and blighted. This is what is happening in Cleveland everyday. Everytime a new unit is added in Westlake or even Downtown, something goes vacant elsewhere, perhaps 20 iterations down the line.

Yup, this must be true because it is impossible for people to move in or out of the City of Cleveland. It's a completely closed system. Of course population is in flux at all times. What I'm trying to convey is that Cleveland and Cuyahoga County in general have a glut of housing. When you add more housing units (don't get me wrong we need more housing downtown) it creates vacancy somewhere else, either directly or indirectly. Example. New college grad takes job in Cleveland 15 years ago. Most popular option was generally Clifton/Edgewater/Gold Coast area. Today much more options exist for housing than before, yet the overall need for housing has dropped. Inevitably more choices exist. If Cuyahoga County loses population and you have a fixed number( or reduced number) of residents who can afford a certain property type ... any time you add more units, equilibrium has to be reached somewhere. Those that once were prime choices 15 years ago have to not raise rents, lower rents, or forego renovations. That then keeps spilling over to the next level of housing units, and so forth, until a unit can't be rented or sold and becomes vacant somewhere in the region. It's really simple supply and demand. Sure there may be demand for units downtown, but demand in the city/county/region is shrinking. You build more supply in one neighborhood but the bigger picture is even greater supply for lower demand. That equates to more vacant units. The same holds for retail in the region, but on a slightly different rationale. Please feel free to move this response to the appropriate thread.

Yeah. It's very surprising. After months of heavy rumors of Heinen's going in at Clifton/ W 117th, Heinen's basically came out and ended the rumors once and for all. They also said they were not looking to expand in Northeast Ohio, or something to that effect. That's why this "news" is surprising. It's also a very telling sign of what's going on in the City of Cleveland's outer neighborhoods versus downtown. Heinen's wasn't interested in one of the densest populated areas of Ohio, but are now interested in downtown Cleveland for a grocery store which has a fraction of the residential population of Edgewater. Probably discussion for another thread, but this may end up being a prime example where downtown's population growth and revival comes at the expense of certain City of Cleveland neighborhoods. In a city with negative population growth, any new development indirectly impacts other existing developments in the city. If you have only have demand for X apartments for people with incomes of Y in the city of Cleveland and you build more apartments for people with incomes of Y without the demand for those apartments in the City of Cleveland increasing, you're going to see problems pop up with excess supply in the outer neighborhoods.

After reading this thread, I could only imagine what people on this board would say if someone proposed the Cuyahoga Valley Scenic Railroad today. * "But it'll compete with the Akron METRO busses between Cleveland and Akron" * "It'll keep people off the towpath trail where they should be" * "What a waste of money, it'll only operate a few times a week" * "What's so scenic about a river valley?" * "People won't want to ride a train in Cleveland's weather" I look at the skylift as a novel new attraction. Cleveland is lacking things that differentiate it from other comparable cities. Everyone has casinos now, everyone has museums, everyone has large sporting venues. What can Cleveland have that other cities don't? This is the kind of forward thinking we need in the city. Yet, already it's bashed.

If so why would they purpose build this in direct competition with the WFL? I think this is a bad investment. I look at this as a really cool entertainment venue/tourist attraction/novelty rather than competition to a public light rail system. Plus this would cross the Cuyahoga to Edgewater, which the WFL doesn't. The lift would probably offer some stunning views, which for the most part the WFL lacks except for that brief part before Brown's stadium where you can actually see the water. I'm sure any admission price to this would be too high for daily commuters to use, but how fun would it be to park at Edgewater at 8 am on a Monday and ride one of these to work!

Yeah. That area hasn't been touched yet. There's a ton of driftwood and flotsam over there. I wish they could remove all that and use their beach combs all the way to that side. Hopefully that's in their future plans.

It's incredible how free the beach is from litter now. Yesterday evening the beach was nearly void of all user garbage, I've never seen it like that before. Perhaps the broken windows theory is working here. The cleaner the beach, the less likely people are going to litter, and when someone does litter, it's removed promptly.

Perhaps it was just the sky yesterday, but I walked by that spot at lunch and the new "skin" doesn't look like the renditions. It looked very translucent almost opaque, versus the crystal clear glass shown in the design. I'm wondering how they will ever clean the glass in between both windows? Surely dust and dirt and any smudges left on the outside of that window during construction will be there forever. It still baffles me that new wrap around windows cost $131 million dollars on an existing building, yet a brand new convention center hotel can be built 2 blocks away for only double the cost of this new facade.

I prefer the Detroit Shoreway brand myself. I only associate Gordon Square with a 2 block radius of W 65th and Detroit. I've always considered Market Square a distinct area of Ohio City, analogous to Gordon Square being a distinct area of Detroit Shoreway. But perhaps the moniker of 'Detroit' on a Cleveland neighborhood doesn't settle well with some?

Couldn't agree more. I'd love to see what people would draw if they were given a blank map of the US with no state lines drawn in. I'm sure people would put down a much different thought of what the Midwest is. For those that draw the line at the Ohio border ... what makes Cleveland distinctly Midwest compared to Erie, PA or Buffalo, NY? When you look at it that way it's very hard to come up with a reasonable answer. Pretty much same culture, geography, weather, industry, and so forth. But what's Midwestern about Cleveland? Perhaps that's a reason that Cleveland isn't Midwest?