LocutusOfBoard

Ohio can invest in education all it wants, but that doesn't mean people will stick around. And they don't. Ohio is #1 in the country for college graduates who move elsewhere upon graduatiton. That's your tax dollars at work. Doesn't make much sense to spend all that money educating people so that other states can benefit from them. There has to be job growth in the state. There has to be policies that directly affect job creation, like low taxes and infrastructure, but not handouts. Also a lot of states with real shitty education systems have no problem creating high paying, "new economy" jobs, like Texas, Florida, Georgia, etc. Why? They attract smart people from other states with their pro-growth policies, people from states like Ohio. Also I don't think anything is wrong with the current level of education spending in Ohio. I know the teachers unions don't think its enough, but I think its satisfactory, and I think the results Ohio is producing in education is better than average. The solution iis not to tax the fuck out of anyone else remaining in the state, give more money to teachers unions for a marginal improvement in education, and ship more graduates off to other states, because there are no jobs in the state.

Roads, canals, bridges, expressways, sewer hookups, water, etc. are capital improvements, not handouts genius. :roll: Also the railroads werre built with private money.

Steel industry dying? Lakshmi Mittal became the world's 3rd richest man after he acquired ISG, a collection of reinvigorated Ohio steel mills. Just goes to show that no one knows what the next big thing will be. Government attempts to predict what the next big industry is going to be will invariably be doomed. :drunk: $50,000 of economic activity is $50,000 of economic activity whether it comes from an auto plant, a newspaper, a school, a hospital, a software company, a law firm, etc. The thing is, it's not the place that picks the industries, but typically the industries that pick the place. That's just how it goes. To catch those industries, the best thing the government can be is pro-business in general. They should help any person who wants to setup shop in Ohio, whether they are building a steel mill or a tech company, start up their business. However, there shouldn't be any discriminatiion between industries, and there shouldn't be any subsidies.

The Eastern part of Columbus's CBD is extremely ghetto. That could be a good location to fix up in the future, although I have a feeling that most people want to be closer to the river where the action is. Also it's a damn shame COSI eats up so much prime real estate. I think the opposite side of the river has some major real estate potential.

You should have read my other thread on taxes. Like I've pointed out before, low taxes = growth. If you look at the list of fastest growing states in the past ten years, they practically read like a list of states with lowest income taxes (which are the most important to keep low). NOw I'm glad you brought up the example of NY and CA, which is also a point I covered. Some states can get away with charging high taxes. Why? Because people will put up with high taxes, regulations, and other hassles to live in the NYC area or in California. San Fransisco has such great weather and spectacular natural beauty that they could send the hangman from door to door to extort money out of people and lots of folks, especially rich folks, would still trip over themselves to live there. During the Dot Com rush lots of corporations moved to Silicon Valley even though it was pretty stupid from a business POV with the regions high costs, but all the workers of those firms wanted to be in California, and there is value in that for keeping people happy. Now Ohio isn't like that. Lets face the facts. None of our cities are in the league of internationally renknowned metropolises like NY, San Fransisco, or Chicago. People aren't lining up to pay money to live in Ohio. Ohio is not that much different than say, Michigan, Indiana, or even Kentucky and Pennsylvania. But we have lost more jobs than all of them. All of thosse states have lower taxes and hence higher growth than Ohio does. No professional looks at Ohio with its 9 income tax brackets and wants to live here. And no corporation is eager to setup industry in this state with its obtuse business taxes. Even if you are one of those anti-growth types that does not want more jobs in Ohio, you have to realize that every state has some churning of jobs. Some businesses go bust, and other ones pop up to replace them. Here in Ohio, we lost 200,000 jobs. There are other states that lost jobs too, but you don't see it because they replaced them. NC's whole furniture industry is going bust, but iit makes little difference because there are so many new jobs popping up in the state that pay well. Here in Ohio, we are losing jobs, and we are not even able to replace the ones that are lost because of the bad business/political climate in the state. It's got nothing to do with weather/unions/lack of nightclubs downtown/lack of education, or whatever else people claim is the problem.

This is an awful idea. You don't get jobs handing bags of money out. You create jobs by keeping the taxes low, so people actually want to come here. What if all these companies go bankrupt and end up swindling the state? Also, what business does the state have picking winners from losers (i.e. discriminating amongst industries?). If we had tried to put lots of public money into the internet in 1999, we'd all be fucked right now, becausse it looked so promising at the time but then all the dotcoms went bust. Silicon Valley was hit by the dotcom bust, but it wasn't as bad as you think because those firms actually wanted to be there. They weren't there because of taxpayer funded subsidies. So the area did well when the times were good, and when the dotcoms went bust it was rough but things began to pickup in other sectors as time went by. Also what if these companies come here for the handout, setup employment, and then when the handout runs out they just close shop or move someplace else? Many clever people will be starting new tech companies (in name only) *just* to get the handout. Taft is stupid. This plan will bring exactly the kind of businesses we don't want in Ohio: those who just want a handout. Schemes like this have never created sustained employment. Why don't they just cut the taxes, and let companies keep real money that they've earned lawfully? I think every business should be treated the same, and there should be few or no tax breaks given out that discriminate and zero subsidies. Even those "rednecks" down South know more about Economics than the GOP and the Democrats in this state put together.

Ohio seems to be on the winning side of a lot of M&A deals lately. Good news for keeping jobs in the state.

In the next census, Toledo is going to be in the Big 3. Muhahahahahaha. Learn to love it. :)

People aren't going to like me asking this, but what do you think the probability is that they will actually build the tower?

I don't know if they will upgrade the whole thing all the way to Ft. Wayne, but the most proximal segment to Toledo (22 miles) is going to become a proper freeway if the funding holds: http://www.usrt24.com/news_01_14_2005.asp The old U.S. 24 will be preserved, and the new U.S. 24 will be a few miles North of it.

You can never have enough retail.

Yeah, race doesn't mean much in Toledo. The one thing I always love about Toledo is the lack of segregation and polarization that exists in nearby big cities (Detroit, Cleveland, Chicago) We have a huge Irish population, but hardly anyone cares. The white ethnicity that celebrates the most is the Polish, but even then, most of the people at the festivals are Black or Latino. There is no "white superiority" complex in the Toledo area. Hell, Toledo is home to more "wiggas" and white ghetto than any other major city I've been to. The racial lines are broken down like they should be for the most part. The Arab community also has a few pretty big functions every year that I frequent. The St. George's Festival is outstanding- I'd rank it as one of the most authentic Lebanese/Greek Orthodox functions in the country. The Islamic Mosque (largest in N. America) also is home to a few big events every year. I wish every white person in America was forced to tour the Islamic Mosque. It would really help lessen some of the racism and prejudice in America. Toledo is very open to Arabs and Muslims, but I can't say that about the rest of the country. While Toledo is a lot better than other places, I'm not so sure it's the racial utopia you make it out to be. There are a lot of Mom and Pop shops in Toledo city that would never hire a black guy. In the 1980's, people throughout Toledo tried to stop the local Hindu organization from constructing temple on the basis of the ridiculous complaint that "there would be guys handing out fliers at the airport" (Hindus don't proselytize, you can only be born a Hindu). I'm sure everyone in Toledo has seen the Islamic mosque, what with its prominent location on I-75 and I-475, but it was attacked after Sept. 11 by some local miscreants with a rocket launcher. Some black guy gets shot in Cincinnati and everyone shits in their pants. In reality, I don't think race relations day-to-day are much different in Toledo or Cincinnati. It's just that Toledo has been fortunate to avoid bad media episodes.

Read this, a few pages down: http://www.toledofreepress.com/PDF/042005_V1.6.pdf Jack Ford's administrattion buried the proposal from the rival developer. They never even considered it. The whole redevelopment is a big pork project for a buddy of his. Toledo is getting the short end of the stick. Downtown Toledo could have had something special, but now it'll just have a bunch of shitty 1 BDR units.

Say good bye to OI Toledo, courtesy of Jack "IQ of 40" Ford!

Well this building is not as crappy as you think it is, because someone else offered $800,000 more for it, with a $500,000 cash transfer. And there's nothing to "believe". Nobody gives a shit about what you "believe" in the business world. You obviously don't understand how the business world works. People sign *contracts*. If the developer doesn't hold up their end of the deal in a timely fashion, they can be sued in court, and their assets (such as the building) confiscated. Forget the building, that strip of land alone on the riverfront in downtown Toledo is probably worth a good deal of money. And they are paying someone to take it off their hands. :evil:

If you buy property from me, do I pay you to take it off my hands? That's effectively what the city of Toledo is doing with the developer they have chosen. It's a shitty deal that they've signed. A bunch of 1 bedroom units in downtown Toledo? That thing is going to go South fast. :drunk:

Those are the good intersections.

$300,000 isn't chump change in Toledo. For that money, you could have 5 Democratic party hacks on the payroll. :lol: If you read closer though, it says that the other developer offered to forego $300,000 and in fact pay the city $500,000. Thats an $800,000 difference, which is a huge amount of money. In a city that's laying off teachers and other public servants left and right, I think this irregularity needs to be looked into.

It seems like Nationwide has a hand in everything happening in downtown Columbus. I wonder how sparse downtown would be without them around.

Well one thing is for sure, the economic boom in the New Sunbelt states of North and South Carolina has just begun, and will likely last several decades. This states will grow in population, political clout, and improve the living standards of their citizens. Make no mistakes: they don't need Ohio, or Ohioans. But Ohio could use a new link to this booming part of the country. One thing that pays economic dividends for Ohio today (while so many other things are faltering) is Ohio's location as a "crossroads". This is due to highways such as 80,90, 70, and 75 passing through the state. UPS has a hub in Toledo because of its highway access and the fact that it is a major rail hub, for example. A new road link to the South East could help Ohio maintain its advantage, and maybe add some jobs in the process. But will Ohio's leaders be smart enouugh to capitalize on this, even if the Southerners hand it to them on a platter with federal funding? That remains to be seen. Many of Ohio's leaders belong to the dumb-old, dumb-old cowbelt school of thinking, where they worship the agrarian form of life, and oppose any kind of development such as expressways. Others will see the Southerners enthusiasm for it, and oppose purely on that basis in hopes of spiting them. But it will be Ohio that suffers the most. :drunk:

Oh I have no problems with the general concept of growth in Delaware county. I just think the people of Ohio deserve a dedicatted highway that cuts through it. :)

On U.S. 23 they keep adding new traffic lights. It's not a matter of lanes. A 4 lane expressway might carry as much traffic as an 8 or 10 lane city road, because the former has no stops and traffic going by at a higher speed. Adding more and more lanes to U.S. 23 is not the way to go. Everytime I drive from Columbus to Toledo there is a new traffic light on U.S. 23 in Delaware county. Someone from Marion, OH told me that the route was pretty good until a few years ago, when they started adding traffic lights. If they keep adding more traffic lights, more traffic will be backed up, and they will end up adding new lanes. The situation is untenable. Even if it was just two lanes through Delaware county, but with those two lanes being dedicatted lanes with no businesses off to the side and no stops or intersections, thatt would probably be better than thte current situation.

There is no proof that dumping more money into education produces proportionatly better results, in fact it doesn't because of diminishing returns. Nor is there proof that people will stick around in an area just because they went to college there, actually they don't. Florida is one of the fastest growing states in the country, with much of the growth being in well paying new economy jobs. Miami has a "Silicon Beach". But there are no world class academic institutions in Florida, actually, the whole education system there is supposed to be shit. But they still attract lots of smart people who are educated elsewhere because they have fantastic economic policies. I went to Cornell University. In Ithaca, NY there is no growth whatsoever. There are few, if any startups. The town is dirt poor. This despite having one off the world's top academic institutions in town. That's because the economic policies in Ithaca are all absolute shit. No one in their right mind would startup a business there.

Absolutely. They just keep adding more and more stoplights to U.S. 23. It can take hours to get through Delaware County on Friday evenings. There's so much stuff on U.S. 23 in Delaware county that it would probably be too difficult to change into an interstate. They would definitely have to look for a different alignment for I-73, maybe the road that goes from Dublin to Marysville and then to Findlay, or just have lots of bypasses on U.S. 23. I think we need I-73 a lot more than many other ODOT projects, such as the half billion I-280 bridge which will primarily be of benefit to people from Detroit travelling to the East Coast.

Yeah no shit, and the point of Ohio policy should be to keep it that way, instead paying through the nose in taxes that go to other states and no money for development of severely clogged routes like U.S. 23 in our state. Not that much money goes into infrastructure spending in Ohio. 70% of it goes into Medicare and K-12 spending alone. Once again, no shit. All roads benefit those that live along them the most. With 1.4 million people in Northwest Ohio, 2 million in Central Ohio, and maybe a half million more in the southeast pat of the state, it sures seems to me that this route would speed up travel for a lot of people. Are you member of a teachers union? Or just a left-winger? I don't think I've ever met a liberal satisfied with the amount of education spending. Education spending in Ohio is sufficient. The bigger problem is that Ohio is #1 in the country for public college graduates that move to other states in search of employment after graduation. Maybe we should dump even more cash into education to prop up the economies of states that keep luring all the smart people from Ohio (and better yet, make the teachers and professos even wealthier) ?