clvlndr

^Very interesting and comprehensive KJP; thanks for that.

I'm definitely down with your last idea. But I would have the trains branching from the W. 25 Red Line station and rising to up to meet W. 25th for the trip southward onto Pearl Rd and into Parma (stopping specifically at Clark, Metro Health, the Zoo and Brooklyn Center)... An alternative would be that, as the trains rise from the W. 25/Ohio City station, they would instead turn 90 degrees to the East, then SE run along curvy Willey Ave to W. 14th Street where trains would then turn South and immediately stop along side (to the west of) Lincoln Park for a "Tremont" station... from there, they would head south on W. 14 to the I-90 bridge, turn west, drop down into the median of I-90 West for .5 miles traveling under bridges for I-71 and Scranton Rd before rising up to meet the W. 25th street bridge over the freeway and THEN head south along W. 25 for the Parma run I noted above.

You're proving my point. You are presenting a Cleveland-type argument against using the trains that you hear less of elsewhere with rapid rail. Note also that, during rush hour, West Side Red Line trains into downtown leave about every 7-8 minutes. Not much of a wait. And Cleveland offers relatively cheap fares and free parking, which many systems (like the DC Metro, among others, do not). Btw, I do know of people in Strongsville who drive in to Brookpark and take the Rapid downtown everyday. But the mentality you are espousing is typical here. People go out of their way not to ride the rails... The good news is, that seems to be changing for the better.

^definitely on my hit list.

You are correct. My geography needs work.

Based on the curve of the River and the Boardwalk, I'm thinking the rendering has us looking from the north -- essentially from the POV of the NS ROW just east of the RR's vertical lift ("Iron Curtain") bridge -- which means the building would be to the Club's south, SE and would be the apartments currently under construction... I think.

I don't doubt the LRT's can handle the grade, even though it would be very windy/twisty along Fairhill along the Doan Creek canyon -- I just don't see a cost justification for it...Even with the high employment/education of Shaker/Heights/Beachwood, etc. people in the UC area, I just don't see the cost justification... and once again, I just don't see Clevelanders forsaking their beloved cars for a relatively short (compared to going downtown), slow (stopping at many un-tripped traffic lights), surface-trolley ride. If our lethargic transit agency is going to invest a major capital project like a rail extension, I'd much prefer projects like the Red Line Windermere-to-Euclid one being looked at currently, or a westward expansion from West Blvd through Lakewood ... which ain't happenin'. Part of this is the Cleveland drive-first mentality... I was down by the E&Y/Aloft Hotel FEB complex the other day for drinks (on the lovely deck overlooking the River and the new apts rising there) during rush hour. That surface parking lot across from the buildings was packed and buzzing: worker/pedestrians were flooding across the WFL tracks to their cars, and there were traffic jams on both W. 10th and Old River Road with everybody trying to flee the Flats... And yet there was only the usual modest, loyal clutch of (smarter) folks at the WFL/FEB station catching Rapid trains, despite the station's being across the street from the FEB complex! ... As Straphanger correctly pointed out, you can't tell me a large chunk of these drivers don't live accessibly to one of RTA's rail lines given the fact that each one terminates at or near one of our circumferential or radial freeways; as well as the fact that the Rapid offers and abundance of free parking at those outer stations ... These folks just PREFER to drive as opposed to the Rapid not being convenient to them. It's a mindset.

^I tend to agree with you MTS, I think improved bus and/or BRT is the better idea. It's just to expensive to build rail in this corridor given the steep grade issues, the built-up nature of this area and lack of ROW. (Fairmount had streetcars on it 100 years ago, but do you really think those mansion dwellers want rail in front of their houses today? -- remember, on Shaker Blvd, the trains came first before the houses ... and never left). The planned Harvard/I-271, Van Aken, SS, Univ. Circle express bus will help, although I still don't like the idea of buses on Van Aken when you have LRT; just seem wasteful. But that's just me... People still have the option of transferring to the #48 bus at Shaker Sq. down to U.C. I know I plan to make the out-of-the way transfer from Green-to-Red at E. 55 and backtrack to the new Little Italy station... It may be out of the way, but it doesn't take that long because of the speed of the trains + the 15 minute Red Line frequency... I won't mind it at all; in fact, I really look forward to it!

Isn't that crazy? And look at the last 2 mayors: Campbell, grew up along the Rapid rails in Shaker Heights; Jackson, represented and still lives in one of the poorest, transit dependent districts in the City -- one where many constituents could be greatly aided by (to mention one innovation) KJP/AAO's proposed E. 79th Red Line station relocation to Buckeye/Woodland/E. 89th. And yet both of these last 2 mayors didn't/haven't say/said peep about transit improvement or expnsion... Worse yet, Jackkson has publicly backed (when he was council pres) the W. 117 big box stores that wiped out 100 houses and, worse yet, the Opportunity Corridor which not only will relocate several constituents, but will provide better driving conditions to West Siders when Jackson's constituents largely don't own cars... ... I also noted a few days ago that the County is racing (for the 2016 RNC) to build the Mall/conv. Center-to-Lakefront pedestrian bridge directly over the Waterfront Line Rapid and Amtrak stations ... WITH NO CONNECTION TO EITHER... This seems to trouble myself, KJP and maybe you and a few others, but apparently none of the public officials directly involved... is something seriously wrong with this picture? The good news is that the young professionals who are embracing downtown and other urban Cleveland areas, both as new residents or frequent visitors, ARE using transit in greater numbers which even RTA can't hide... The bad news is that the negative image of transit (as existing primarily for minorities and the poor) still permeates and poison's the mindset of way too many public officials here... and that particularly applies to our conservative, car-crazed major newspaper: the Plain Dealer. If this city is to continue it's upward swing towards the true human-scale, walkable exciting urban place so many of us desire, this negative mentality toward transit has to change.

I don't know if he fully realizes it, but I did tell Dan Gilbert a few years ago. I did my part. Good for you! You seem to be the only "public official" that actually consistently advocates transit around Cleveland. It's up to the rest of us to "remind" these folks of these transit possibilities... like CVSR's extension. As far as my part; I'll be on the contact trail to Rock Caesars in the a.m.

... you can insert Milwaukee, Indianapolis, Columbus, KC, San Antonio, Tampa/St. Pete, Birmingham, Buffalo (although they're not bad; still, Cleveland's better), Phoenix (despite the new LRT, that metro is sprawling), Austin (coming along, but...), Jacksonville, Orlando (new commuter rail is nice, but..), Tidewater, VA area (Norfolk's new LRT is nice, but...), and so on, and so on... The point is not saying Cleveland's perfect and doesn't have a lot of work to do, but we're also in a pretty good place, transit-wise imho, esp given our battered economy, extreme population losses over the decades and relative ease of driving, which we share with most medium size, Midwest (dare I say "Rust Belt") metropolises.

I hear you DM4. Few UOers have expressed more displeasure than me with the lackluster growth and vision of the current JoeC/RTA administration (in addition to NOACAction, other local officials like the Mayer, County exec and various city council members where rail goes right through their district). This being true, it is also true that Cleveland is finally growing along WITH its transit system, most notably in the form of TOD around rail. In MRN, Inc, you have a major local developer that explicitly has developed projects – E. 4, Uptown and in Market Square/Ohio City, to be near Red Line rail stations… Flats East Bank is developing around a waterfront station. And in other areas, at Farnsleigh/Warrensville/Van Aken, at Lee Road, Detroit Shoreway, Little Italy and in/around Shaker Square, that have recently built or are building TOD development (and that doesn’t even count still planned/not yet started major TOD projects like Intesa, the Duck Island apts, Market Square or the Univ. Circle high rise(s) or the 120+ units possibly being added to already dense Little Italy… Fact is, Cleveland experiencing more TOD growth since the Van Sweringen/immediate post Van Sweringen days ending in the 1940s…. Add to this the fact that just as Cleveland was completing its last major rail expansion in the late 1960s, the city, esp its downtown, experienced near-unprecedented (in the US) decline in population and business loss . . . and then there was the 2008 recession that clubbed the town like no other. To consider where we are now development-wise/downtown-wise, with all these still-fresh obstacles (and still many more to overcome), is mindboggling. And as we see, with downtown and TOD development, comes resurgent rider numbers… and even more encouraging is that young professionals are turning to the rails and buses unlike their oft-jaded older counterparts. … and as for rider-ship, I don’t always look at those numbers as the Holy Grail. Sure, they can be somewhat indicative, but don’t always tell the whole story. In Cleveland, we have significant underused transit infrastructure plus an embarrassment of riches when it comes to the ease of movement in terms of driving (including easy-access freeways) and transit – few cities enjoy our balance. And let’s face it, part of this is the collective mentality must overcome: like transit is for the poor and minorities; transit is so in convenient -- like it’s sooo tough to walk from Tower City to – how can I contain myself – Euclid/E. 9th… or even E. 6th – never mind that in that great transit mecca known as Chicago, L riders to hotspots along Michigan Ave, Streeterville and Navy Pier must often schlep 5, 6 and 7 blocks from rail stations … and we’re talking Chicago-sized blocks, not the smaller Cleveland blocks (and Chicago’s just one example) …. Ed FitzGerald said it best after people were shocked when we beat out Dallas for the 2016 RNC convention: Cleveland’s worst enemies/biggest critics are those who have either never been here or who have never been anywhere else. Btw, we did add the Health Line in 2008 – not my cup of tea, but it IS a transit improvement. Also, many of the cities you cite as having grown their transit systems recently are cities that had nothing and are trying to catch up with the Clevelands of the world – with many (Charlotte, Phoenix, Detroit and Orlando, to name a few) are still significantly inferior to Cleveland transit-wise.

^Dan of course is a major investor in the Detroit LRT now going in along Woodward Ave, so having him invest in transit such as the CVSR Tower City connection wouldn't be unprecedented. I wonder if he fully realizes that he could have 60 miles of car-free gamblers dropped off directly underneath his Horseshoe Casino ... And hey, now may be the best time to approach him about this; he's probably in a great mood now that he's got LeBron back in the fold..

^^^ Biker, I’ve talked to, and know of, several (close to many) people who are carefree in Ohio City and a few car-lighters in Tremont. Transit is the 1st option, not the 3rd or 4th in Ohio City – the above group practically lives on the Red Line (airport, downtown (including TC, E. 4th, WHD, FEB, etc.) U. Circle/Little Italy, Detroit-Shoreway and Edgewater, the W. 117 big box stores, etc…), and the (9) bus lines fanning out all over the West Side with short hops (ie Metro Health, Zoo, the Lorain Antiques area(s), etc.) and into the close-in burbs… Yeah, Tremont’s a little dicey-er transit-wise because they have is the #81 bus (although it’s a 24/7 route) or a .7 mile walk to the Red Line @ Ohio City… but transit still allows for a car-lite existence in Tremont… And you can’t dismiss cab services, which especially has been plentiful in Ohio City in the past few years with the explosive restaurant/retail growth in the Market Square district allow W. 25th. Also, you can’t dismiss the car-free options in University Circle, Detroit-Shoreway, Shaker Square, Cudell, West Park, Puritas, the Campus District and, yes, East Cleveland (even given the current very difficult living conditions there, although there are a few livable pockets, like the new Circle East development on the HL just up from U. Circle… And downtown? I wouldn’t even want a car if I lived down there – given it’s compact, walkable nature, let alone the abundance of transit (and taxi) options including free trolleys everywhere, the HL, the Rapid (yes, connecting FEB and Ohio City, which is almost like a sub-downtown) and regular bus lines, some 24-hour routes, the filter along Prospect, Ontario, Superior, and St. Clair, to name a few downtown streets. I know you feel Cleveland’s transit network sucks and you constantly criticize its shortcomings (some of it fair, but a lot unfair imho), but I’ll take it over a majority of major cities in the USA, esp here in the Midwest.

Doesn't seem to make a lot of sense for a city that has pockets of density up to 15,000 people/mile and it doesn't sound like local transit planning is being done in a systematic, research-driven approach.

What I can't understand is why RTA proposed to study extending the Red Line to the NE from Stokes-Windermere where it passes mostly industrial sites along the RR ROW and NOT westward along NS ROW into/through Lakewood, the 2nd most densely populated city between NYC and Philadelphia (behind Hamtramck, MI)?

So they're building this walkway directly over the RTA tracks with no connection even though it could allow rail passengers a direct connection to the Convention Center, while also allowing Convention Center patrons, and residents visitors to the planned new North Coast Harbor residential/office/retail project a direct rail connection to the new Flats East Bank entertainment district which is .7 miles away... Wouldn't this sort of transit connectivity have made sense for a large scale convention like, say, the 2016 RNC? Why hasn't RTA spoken up about this? Did All Aboard Ohio approach officials about this? Obviously, as you note, this project ignores Amtrak too. Looks like a seriously missed opportunity.

Red Line East Side construction ... continued... again. Now there's no longer an end date posted, with RTA now going the "... until further notice" mode. No way the completion of the UC/Little Italy station should take until 2016. http://www.riderta.com/news/july-red-line-construction

Well, now there's a view you don't see every day! Now this the great insight I expect from UrbanOhio! Interesting view, but my fear-of-heights queasiness goes off looking at this photo.

Hmm, I wonder if this is evidence Ohio City is dying? (haha, just kidding, but intended to highlight the absurdity of a similar post re-East Side/University Circle when Accent and Beer Cellars closed in UC/Uptown). Lovely building, great neighborhood, nice desert and jazz, at one time. Somebody else will reopen here; too hot a spot....

Trading for Kevin Love won't be easy for the Cleveland Cavaliers -- Terry Pluto By Terry Pluto, The Plain Dealer Email the author | Follow on Twitter on July 17, 2014 at 3:23 PM, updated July 17, 2014 at 8:36 PM CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Why don't the Cavaliers just trade Andrew Wiggins for Minnesota's Kevin Love and get it over with? More than a few fans have asked that, and not enough people in the media have taken time to explain why this is not an easy trade to complete. Here we go: THE SALARY CAP, PART ONE It takes more than Wiggins to make the trade work. Love is paid $15.7 million. Wiggins will be paid $4.6 million in his rookie contract. It's a bit complicated, but the Cavs can't make this trade without giving up at least $11.8 million worth of contracts. In other words, they can't trade Wiggins for Love straight up. You can toss in Anthony Bennett ($5.5 million) with Wiggins ($4.6 million), Carrick Felix ($816,000) and Matthew Dellavedova ($816,000) http://www.cleveland.com/pluto/index.ssf/2014/07/post_98.html#incart_m-rpt-1

Same here. We seem like we're desperate and not a team that just (re)landed the best player in basketball + the no. 1 pick in a very strong draft.

Love for Wiggins, Bennett, next year's 1st round pick and maybe Haywood. We really would be trading away our future; we'd damn sure better win the title if we do this.

^^Nice work Equillibrius. I agree with most aspects of your plan esp the Det-Superior bridge subway/Tower City aspect that would not only provide a fast, traffic free entrance to downtown, it could free up Public Square from buses, since many could terminate at West Side stops allowing transferring passengers a quick ride into Tower City (preferably into the old, unused Shaker Rapid station.

It does seem difficult for NCTC could be a full Ohio Hub Amtrak center with both the freight traffic and the verticle-lift bridge over the Cuyahoga. Might be time to dust off that plan you drafted years ago in EcoCity Cleveland to remove freight trains from the lakefront route.