clvlndr

Yes, I agree; the massive mall/suburban retail that emerged in the 60s and 70s was freeway driven and a belief, expressed by (imho misguided) transportation officials like Albert S. Porter, that the old big city downtowns like Cleveland’s were "dying"; that mass transit, esp. rail, was “old fashion” and limiting, and that people wanted to be “free” to drive their own cars, park for free and shop nearer to where they lived. The problem, of course, is that the sanitized/sterile mall environment got old within a decade of the mall craze, so that by the 90s, big city CBD's (like downtown Cleveland) were rediscovered (and in Cleveland’s case, repurposed … as both a living place as well as a CBD) became the rage among young professionals because of CBDs' character, authenticity and convenience of NOT having to utilize an automobile -- that people could either arrive their conveniently by transit ... or walk from their CBD apartments ... which, btw, more often than not was also within walking distance from their home... … but in keeping with the desire of some to still have shopping nearby and not “all the way downtown” … Legacy Village and, esp. Crocker Parker, were imitations of small-town Main Streets that exist in many old-line suburbs (see Shaker Square -- yes, in Cleveland, but suburban in character; the numerous Main Streets in Cleveland Heights, Lakewood, Chagrin Falls, etc...).. The problem is that all malls, esp. the hoity-toity ones like Beachwood Place, aren't going away anytime soon and, in fact, still hold a great deal of cache largely because of their upscale stores and clientele. And, as noted above, malls like BP have attracted fairly dense and upscale residential areas around them -- esp BP! mass transit, unfortunately, is forced to adapt as best it can to places like BP so a Green Line extension to BP isn't a crazy idea, even though the whole concept of a BM to begin with is repugnant to most urbanites. ... and if you think we've got issues with BP, check out Philadelphia's monster mall: King of Prussia, which could probably consume about 5 or 6 BPs!! -- it's a gigantic, upscale mall (with Neiman Marcus and Nordstrom, to name a few) that currently has zero connections to SEPTA's massive rail network -- I believe Philadelphia planners have settled on building a branch off the old Route 100/Norristown interurban, 3rd rail train route which originates out of SEPTA's 69th street Market St. el terminal.

Yes, absolutely... I don't think people realize, as I know you do, what an amazing engineering feat that complex is: not only constructing it on a relatively small parcel of land (IIRC on rather unstable soil) sloping down toward the river, but accessed by trains to boot... Actually TC should have been rebuilt probably a decade before it actually was. I remember as a young boy, my Dad bringing home exciting proposals and artist’s renderings of a massive mall complex roughly looking like the TC that materialized back in the mid-70s! But FCE wasn't going to move on TC without public financing to rehab the bridges, and the lack of agreement on funding held TC up for years... For all TC's faults as a shopping mall, and it clearly has them, it is still a thing of beauty architecturally, especially the way the old Union Station motif is woven into the design.

Well nitpick on!! If you're right, you're right... I stand corrected.

It is a nice little building, and now that big windows have been installed and the partitions subdividing the building into separate units have been removed, it’s intricately designed façade is now more noticeable -- that big ol’ red Volk’s covered a large chunk of the middle of the building… I know Volk’s was a downtown, family institution and I hated seeing them close up shop after over a century of good business (my family had patronized them over the years) but, to put it kindly, their building wasn't kept in the best condition from a curbside POV.

I noticed this walking by yesterday, too. I didn't think anything of it. They may just be altering their marquee. If anything serious was happening to P&F we'd know about it... I know Ayisha Tyler is the headliner scheduled for this weekend... Btw, I saw workers (water) pressure cleaning the facade for the Red the Steakhouse around the corner on Prospect. They seem to really be moving along towards an on-time opening.

^Amen KJP... It amazes me when Americans, Clevelanders in particular (and E. Roc in particular, particular), choose to live in sprawling, low density areas they've collectively created far away from prime areas of employment, entertainment and commerce, and then, turn around, and gripe about how inconvenient and slow mass transit is. Once again, ... amazing!

^Glad about the window replacements... Yes, some are clear, while others..., well. Glad their all being replaced. I rode Balto's HRVs about 7-8 years ago, and they clearly had been updated/upgraded since I lived in the DC area when they were still new in the early 90s... The updates had new upholstery, GPS-activated audio and, IIRC, digital display of station stops.... I'm not complaining about the time needed to rehab; I just thought it had been announced before... actually I don't have a real problem with the current cars so long as their clean, the ride is good (which I noted has been excellent generally of late) and you can see out the windows.

Wow that's a lot longer than I thought it would take I too, am disappointed for the long timeframe. Baltimore's Metro cars, which are roughly contemporary with the current Red Line cars, have been rehabbed for nearly a decade... Meanwhile, I sure hope we don't have to wait for the total rehab of cars in order to get those gunky/foggy, shredded insulation windows on the Red Line replaced. There are Red Line cars in service whose entire bank of windows are is foggy that everything seen through them outside is a blur... RTA, pre-car rehab, has smoothed out rapid transit wheels with (according to KJP) and new lathe, and the positive effect on ride quality has been tremendous. Can we similarly get those awful Red Line windows replaced Jerry? JetDog?

I was rather surprised to see such an extensive article about this project -- that after all isn't a highway -- in the PD... I'm also gratified that Mike Polensek is on board with a rail extension. Advocates for rail need someone as pushy and noisy as Mike P. here. One of the biggest impediments to rail expansion in this region is precisely the lack of prominent friends of rail transit, which is the opposite of big highway projects (i.e. the lockstep unanimity across party lines to get the OC built, no matter what). Prominent pols in this city and state tend to go silent when rail proposals arise with rare exceptions: ie. Mike White and, then, Voinovich re the Waterfront Line (and you see, it got built), as opposed to Dual Hub -- where the same Mike White and commish Tim Hagan turned against it, ... and it died. Ted Strickland was the rare Ohio guv who strongly backed the cross-state 3-C Amtrak proposal. Unfortunately, he was outmanned by regressive Republican state legislators leading to the election of the current governor who literally killed it ... It would be great if advocates of the Red Line extension can other pols, in addition to Polensek on board ... someone like, say, the Mayor maybe. Who's home district includes some of the highest % of transit-dependent constituents in, not just the county, ... but the State. And yet, I have yet to here him speak up for transit the way he has highway (OC) and big box (W. 117, Steelyards) projects. ... but then again, Jane Campbell, who grew up in extraordinary rapid-transit friendly Shaker Heights, didn't speak up for rail either... Let’s hope Mike Polensek’s large megaphone, re this project, can turn the tide.

Not at all... I didn't see anything you said as harsh...

You make a lot of sense... This is all just fun speculation. Really though, you're right, the current Green Line terminus is close enough, and accessible enough (from the BM area and Eastern burbs) that extending it directly to BM may not really increase inbound ridership into downtown... You would get some increase in BM-area workers from the city. But you probably wouldn't gain much, at all, casual mall-goers. The problem? The Shaker Lines, as they were built, were designed to collect Shaker residents and speed them over the low-density/high speed railroad ROW west of Shaker Square. Asking riders to use the Green Line going the opposite direction to the mall is counterintuitive to many upper middle class types who could get there much quicker and easier in their cars. BART or the DC Metro are different because they are totally grade separated, high speed lines that zip above and under heavy suburban traffic... Now, if the Green Line had a grade separated route with 2 or 3 stops in between Shaker Square and BM, it would be a different story... but with the current line riding at street level, stopping for traffic lights and at 20 or so stops... no.

... also, because of the traffic and surface parking sprawl, I would consider raising the Green Line up from the I-271 median onto an elevated trestle over the cars with a few station stops. This is a new-ish area with few architectural landmarks, so I don't think a people would have much objection to a modern, single concrete pillar elevated rail line. Although it would be more expensive than running on the surface, it would be a lot cheaper than a subway but with just the same speed and efficiency.

^^I agree with biker 16, it's the residential AND commercial density around BM that makes it rail transit worthy. And it's not just BM; you have Legacy Village and La Place mall as well. I'm not sure, though, that extending the Green Line to I-271 then right-turning due north wouldn't be a faster, cheaper way to enter the BM/La Place area via the back door, as opposed to running a slower trolley down the middle of crowded Richmond Rd.

I agree with your vision. I too would rather see minimal office development. I'd rather continue the focus on reviving some of the existing empty office buildings, most notably in the E. 9th/Playhouse Sq area.

I agree with your vision. I too would rather see minimal office development along the Lakefront. I'd rather continue the focus on reviving office space in some of the existing empty buildings, most notably in the E. 9th/Playhouse Sq area.

Mark Naymik is a far too-typical Cleveland glass-half-empty journalist. He recently penned a very negative article about Shaker Square... Yes, I've observed a number of empty WFL cars. I have seen some riding during rush hour and on weekends, but there are some empty cars. I applaud RTA for bringing the WFL back to regular service and implore that they stick with it and try and build passengers. A couple months isn't enough time to judge service. And even before, when RTA cut back the service, I think they saved a couple hundred thousand dollars per year -- that's not going to catapult a resurgent RTA into the red. I would like to see RTA engage in more advertising and promotions to highlight the WFL (hint: maybe sub some information-laden radio commercials rather than those annoying, overly cutsey, Info-empty spots with that deep-voiced guy spouting about “The Ride” – funny how some would rather cut the WFL rather than cut the big bucks spent on such useless commercials that I’m sure influence nobody). It takes one literally to the door of the new FEB complex. You mean this wouldn't be super convenient (and cheap) for hotel/airport visitors? Cleveland Joe, a few years ago, began promoting an RTA Bar Crawl. Right now, there are several bars in the FEB complex, including the uber-hip WXYZ bar in the Aloft Hotel (love their lounge area and patios overlooking the Flats (and the WFL) which stay crowded, at least during my few visits there. Why can’t RTA help foster such fun social, transit –friendly activities for people. And why can’t/shouldn’t there be some kind of hotel-to-casino promo for Aloft visitors… This past weekend both the casino and the Aloft were both very busy, yet few, if any, Alofters were using the trains to get to the casino despite the quick, direct shot (and the 15-min intervals are pretty good throughout the day). There were a number of office workers who did stroll over to the FEB/WFL station during evening rush. Unfortunately, there seemed to be more who flooded across the tracks into the $6/10 buck surface parking lot to saddle up their Tin Lizzies... You can't tell me that it wouldn't be more convenient for at least half or more of those car drivers to either walk, bus or park (for FREE) at an outer Rapid stop and take the train in ... esp. those who are convenient to the Blue and Green Lines who are afforded a direct shot to the E & W complex... If RTA could either promote the WFL and or get corporate sponsors to promo it, I think they could jostle some commuters out of their auto-comfort zone to ride the rails (I'll be many will when the 1st big snow storm hits in a few months... ... Maybe Naymik may want to highlight these points and promote the mass transit that many more Clevelanders are availing themselves of rather than sitting back and taking cheap potshots....

CLE+ should send a bouquet to Sally Fay (rhyme strictly serendipitous).

^^ I like the new signs. The more information, the better imho.

I may be missing something, but I thought the closest bridge, with the 12' 6" on it, is the industrial siding track that is to be removed... Otherwise, I think the drawings are pretty much the same: just concept art. I think the new one's are just spiced up for effect.

I don't believe paying an extra quarter or so led to the steep rider drop-off RTA experienced. It was the loss of jobs downtown, I believe, led to the huge drop. Ridership isn't that fare sensitive. DC Metro, with it's zone mileage charges among the nation's highest and, yet, has the 2nd highest patronage outside of NYC... I worked downtown in summer college jobs into the early 80s... downtown was bustling with jobs, commerce and retail. And since nobody lived down there in those days, RTA trains and buses were packed during rush hour. The buildup of then (in 1980) rundown neighborhoods like Ohio City and residential Univ. Circle, as well as more downtown residents have recovered some of that lost ridership -- and it continues to grow. But the huge collapse of downtown jobs, and corporate collapse and flight is what hammered ridership... E Roc is right, RTA's hub/spokes, downtown-oriented transit facilitated this loss in many ways... Where E Roc is wrong is to characterize this as an RTA problem... Almost all American big-city transit systems are designed this way. And the freedom to sprawl to the suburbs, as E Roc advocates, makes such transit all the more difficult to be successful... Thankfully young adult's return to American cities, including Cleveland, is boosting transit use everywhere.

This station should be nice, although as unsightly as the bus loop became, I thought it served a valuable purpose; I'm a little iffy about collecting all passengers and bus transferring on the east side of Cedar... Also, didn't RTA just build an ADA elevator at U. Circle just a few years ago? If so, talk about waste...

Cameras in the tunnel make absolute sense, more for ped safety (esp for females) than to stop graffiti imho. ... as for Homeland Security, I think I read where every person, on average, is caught on some security camera at least 30-50 times per day ... even more if you frequent a major CBD... just a fact of life in post 9-11 America.

Which is why if one cares about this stuff, as most UOers obviously do, we really need to get out and actively support Ed FitzGerald for gov this coming year.

Graffiti is fact of life for urban areas. As bad as it seems here, try visiting some European countries, esp Italy, and esp Rome... Here in the USA, even wealthy city areas get hit by it, esp. out East. I wouldn't get bent out of shape about it.

^Wow, little Akron will get the big bendybuses... impressive!