clvlndr

Didn't MRN also use eminent domain to force parties out of some of their East 4th buildings? "Urban projects also require a lot of cooperation with city hall, to make sure they are integrated with existing infrastructure and comply with city laws. The 16 buildings on East Fourth had 250 owners crowded onto their land-leases. MRN managed to acquire 80 percent of the property, but to free up abandoned or extremely neglected buildings, the city had to exercise eminent domain." http://www.nationaljournal.com/next-economy/solutions-bank/how-one-family-made-cleveland-yes-cleveland-cool-20130801 That one little blurb hardly tells the story of what really went down, but anyone interested can do their own research I thought I was clear. ED is a legitimate tool to seize property IF it is truly blighted, which was clearly the case on E. 4th. It was a lot different in FEB where the property was viable (the Flats was one of the premiere entertainment districts in the nation until the early 2000s) but then (appeared to be) deliberately devalued by the surrounding owner to make the old buildings seem blighted in order for the their group to clear the deck for future future development. ... but that's old news now. I hope for the best for the new FEB because I strongly root for my hometown. But although I'm impressed with Phase I, my lingering concern about these developers will linger until more of this important project for Cleveland gets off the ground.

Well, I guess being an idiotic-post frequent flyer, you'd be most qualified as arbiter... Fact is, FEB was announced in 2005 and now, 8 years later, Phase 1 has just opened -- and if you read carefully, I’ve been positive about the quality of the completed Phase 1. Note however the comment in the City posting that, if Phase 2 does not happen relatively soon, there’s potential that Phase 1 could be harmed and decline. It’s a matter of fact that Wolstein/Fishman have placed a key component of FEB – the central retail aspect, in Phase 3 while they’re still struggling to close on Phase 2 … so that center surface parking will probably be around for several years… There are aspects of the Fishman/Wolstein FEB program that are eyebrow-raising… and the evidence suggests MRN would have moved on this project more effectively/efficiently. I stand by this. The fact is, there is still lingering suspicion and angst regarding how the FEB property was acquired in the 1st place – a plan to gin up the death of the East Bank in other to grab the property and bulldoze and rebuild it (a whole book could be written about this, but I digress). When the younger Wolstein (Scott) announced FEB way back in 2005, he did not hold full property rights within the footprint and had to go to the County and the court to force legit businesses to settle with the Eminent Domain gun to their heads. Then, in 2011, Wolstein pitched a hissy fit publically castigating the Port Authority stating that the decision not to relocate the PA shipping away from the next-door mouth of the Cuyahoga would jeopardize Phase 2 of FEB … with Adam Fishman later owning up to the fact he probably exacerbated the problem by sitting on the Group’s disenchantment with PA until the Zero Hour… If you don’t believe me on this last point, consider: http://www.crainscleveland.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20110921/FREE/110929940 So I am somewhat skeptical/concerned and have little empathy with Wolstein/Fishman when I see such things and much prefer the way Ari Maron/MRN handles their business. They quietly do their homework, announce their project’s phases when all the tedious/difficult pieces are in place ... and then they act. ... E. 4th Street was a collapsing cesspool until MRN moved on it. And Uptown? I assumed that with the prickly Hessler Road neighbors calling the shots, I figured Euclid-Ford Rd. would forever (at least in my lifetime) remain a surface parking lot … but behold their golden Uptown development ON TIME on both sides of Euclid Ave. NOTE: you NEVER hear MRN sniping or whining in the media, ... to gain public sympathy, money ... or both. Having had a taste of it myself, I realize the world of commercial RE is a iffy and rough ‘n tumble business, and you have to be really sharp to make a go of it, esp in a tough market like Cleveland, where the banks drive about the hardest bargain anywhere to extend financing. That said, if you’re going to do it, especially in a town that is screaming for development, you’d better have your act together… like MRN.

Your premise is flawed on a couple levels. Denver is using P3 financing to build about 88 miles of rail (about 34 miles was in place before P3 was sought 65 or 6 years ago). Cuyahoga County/RTA would be seeking it to build a mere 6 mile extension of an existing rapid transit line. And contrary to your comment, the primary areas served/benefiting -- University Circle, downtown and Ohio City (but mainly University Circle) are all growing. Secondly, you assume there would be no local public subsidy to buttress private financing. In the early 1990s RTA received state funding to build the 1st rail extension in nearly 40 years - the Waterfront Line. Forgetting the perceived merits or lack thereof of this project, the State opened its coffers to help subsidize this project to the extent no federal money was sought; hence no federal hoops (like environmental and alternative use studies) were not needed, and the line was built in record time; built in a city that was no better off, economically than it is now, and in many ways, worse. Of course we had advantages: a pro-rail transit chief, a pushy mayor and an ex-Cleveland mayor governor who, unlike the incumbent, wasn't radically against transit -- Voinovich, in fact, was a key point person in facilitating the WFL. ... but who's to say that next year the arch-conservative Kasich won't be run and replaced by Ed FitzGerald, who is both a Clevelander and a Democrat -- the obviously more pro transit of the 2 political parties.

I was thinking the same thing. I have been concerned about the difficulty with which Fairmount/Wolstein has had closing on Phase 2, even with Phase 1 open and, by most accounts (including my own), a success. This project has taken 8 years since it was 1st announced in 2005 to get Phase 1 built, and Phase 2, has still not closed. It seems this project has faced one obstacle after another. Are Fishman/Wolstein up to the job? Maybe they need to bring in Ari Maron who seems more adept at getting MRN's equally difficult projects DONE and done considerably quicker ... I was also deflated that the central retail aspect of FEB is NOT in Phase 2 and that, because of this, that big ol’ ugly surface lot in the middle will likely be around for a half decade, … at least, esp. since Phase 2 still isn’t locked down yet. All aspects of this project, esp Phase 1 are very nice and a leap forward for downtown, including/especially the apartment units. But without the retail/grocery/convenience/theatre that was planned for the central portion, this development will lack the essential elements of what truly makes a place a neighborhood…

OK, so let's forget single tracking and go for the double-tracking for the full 6 miles -- at less than Joe C's rather inflated $100/mile. Can/would AAO find a P3 private partner to package?

KJP, below is a report on (I'm sure your aware) of the innovative P3 public/private partnership that was formed in Denver after the 2008 crash to help fund that region's highly ambitious FasTracks program where federal funding was threatened by the crash -- this particular report focuses on the ambitious and unique 36-mile electrified commuter rail component of, what will soon be, an system of electrified LRT/commuter rail network of 82 miles ... and growing. I believe that a fully electrified extension of the Red Line can and should be done to Euclid Square, even if it is (for now) single tracked in parts (note major portions of Denver's commuter rail, under construction, is single tracked, even the longest branch: the East Line to Denver International Airport). QUESTION: can it happen here? Specifically, can it be looked into for this 6-mile Red Line expansion? It would seem to make sense to approach corporate powers at University Circle and downtown that would directly benefit from this line, like CWRU/University Hospital, Lincoln Electric, the Horseshoe Casino, ... to name a few. Has All Aboard Ohio explored or suggested this? Can they? ... your thoughts? http://www.bizjournals.com/denver/print-edition/2012/11/16/eagle-p3-fastracks-project-glides.html?page=all

Obviously, those 3rd rail shields can, and did, save lives/a life.

New commuter rail coming to Denver International Airport (Video) 10:08 PM, Aug 11, 2013 KUSA - The long awaited train to DIA will be rolling out of Union Station in the first half of 2016. In the video above 9NEWS Consumer Reporter Mark Koebrich explains how early price points for tickets are something of a bargain. He says they will certainly beat the long term parking prices at the airport. http://www.9news.com/news/article/349780/75/New-commuter-rail-coming-to-Denver-International-Airport

A Cleveland.bom poster stated it best: It's a shame that the Historic Gateway Neighborhood Corporation is apparently in part run by a shill for out of town parking lot interests.

^... and I might add that nothing in SF's vast transit network is more effective in attacking those steep SF hills than the cable cars which, I'm sure, is also a reason why they've survived.

Actually you'd be surprised, a lot of folks do use SF's cable cars as basic transportation. It's we tourists who ride it for the fun.

I wondered about that myself... guess people don't consider it a serious transportation system but more of an amusement/novelty/tourist attraction.

That's not saying much. RTA under Joe Calabrese has endorsed every transit program that hurts either existing rail or plans to it. If he could snap his fingers and make our Rapid network disappear, he would.

Sounds like CVSR's cousin ... and with CVSR's potential, too.

Welcome!

What an absurd comment. Who cares if other cities have some (and certainly not all) of the aspects Cleveland has? We should be about the business of sustaining and growing the diverse, cultural and substantive city we already have? Your thinking is exactly the WRONG mindset for a project like this: if it's just about creating some kind of inferiority-complex driven "look-at-me" gimmick, then save the money. I think KJP has the right approach. It could be a potentially interesting and useful means to connect the WFL and FEB with a SINGLE ROUTE to some generally inaccessible areas along the West Harbor, like Wendy Park. And that's it. This current proposal to crisscross the river and extend up and down the lake front linking FEB, Burke and the Tower City/new casino area duplicates the Waterfront Line and is way over the top: a project this extensive has the potential to be an eyesore and offers little benefit ... except to siphon riders for WFL. If that's the plan, forget it. And although a previous poster was a bit harsher about this proposal than I am, it does appear that this proposal, in many ways, is putting cart before the horse... The Flats, esp the East Bank, is still largely dead. We have 1 very promising office/hotel project that is itself only partially open and still no date set for construction of the much more extensive Phase 2 of FEB although it appears all systems are go. It would make more sense to continue to work on more tangible, down-to-earth projects, like building housing, retail, the Phase II casino... and other facilities to develop the pulse that simply isn't in the Flats as yet. Let's do those things first before we go off full tilt and expand a skyLift from a single route that could be interesting and useful into some kind of monstrous eyesore/gimmick such as seen in the full-blown proposal.

Nicely done Firenze98!!

Wow, very comprehensive.

Imagining a Dream Rapid for Cleveland 24 June 2013 No Comment By Christoper Lohr In March, The Atlantic Cities featured a map by Baltimore resident Chris Nelson that showed every Subway Restaurant as an actual subway stop arrayed nicely into a transit network that extended throughout greater Baltimore. Skip ahead to a few days ago and Business Insider wrote an article on the NYC Subway system plan from the 1970′s that never ended up being built. http://rustwire.com/2013/06/24/imagining-a-dream-rapid-for-cleveland/

Had lunch in the WHD during a warm/sunny workday a week ago and noticed how crowded the restaurants were. It appears the new FEB development is pumping in many new customers into eateries in that corner of downtown.

Cable cars are a novelty and fun in the right urban places (like to NYC's Roosevelt Island), but Stahl proposes this (and RTA buys into it) as a serious transit facility, which seems a bit absurd. At a max speed of 35 MPH and limited capacity, such transit thinking is a bad idea. Now as a fun, amusement-ride type means of getting back 'n forth across the Flats or to a remote place like Whiskey Island, I can see it. But SkyLift as a "transit line" stretching from Edgewater Park, to Burke, to Muni Lot and the Phase II casino area just doesn't make sense ... and could potential hamper lake and riverfront development if placed improperly. And I agree with MTS, much of this route duplicates the Waterfront Line anyway (so why is Joe Calabrese backing it???). I think Calabrese needs to focus on improving and expanding RTA, and perhaps finding wealthy private stakeholders, like a Jon Stahl or a Dan Gilbert (see Detroit's Woodward Ave LRT plan) as sources of public-private funding for such expansion... P.S. With Phase II of FEB on the way, planners should think about a serious Water Taxi with routes around the river and lakefront connecting both Banks of the Flats with Edgewater, North Coast harbor, Whisky Is, etc. ... a la Baltimore, Chicago and others. To me this is the more sensible, cheaper alternative to SkyLift and just as, if not more, fun.

True, but the point being that it is counterintuitive to use ED to save property rather than demolish it for "the public good" which is the way ED is usually used. I’ve never seen it used in the manner I suggest. This is usually done with a Historic Preservation designation which I doubt Corbo’s has.

Yep, they're much easier to use now.

^There may be legal precedent for this; a kind of reverse eminent domain to seize property to save it rather than demolish it. Using it for Corbo's in this excellent, intact strip of mainly old buildings would be a good test case.

Really? Which city was that? In Philly, they are used on a number of routes due to SEPTA's considerably heavier traffic than RTA's and they often operate in extremely narrow, (in many cases) Colonial-era streets -- it's a common Philly sight to see car drivers at a red light have to back up to allow buses (regular or articulated) the space to turn onto their narrow street. I’m not aware of any higher accident statistics with the articulated buses for SEPTA or any other agency that uses them. Cleveland has much wider streets and generally less traffic than Philly, even on the 3 principal streets where articulated buses operate (Euclid, Lorain and Detroit – with some exceptions like Gordon Sq and Euclid-University Circle during rush periods). A couple years ago an RTA bus driver was found guilty for wrongful death/vehicular homicide for killing a pedestrian when she was distracted on her cell phone while making a right turn – hence the audible (annoying) audible recorded warning that is sounded every time bus makes a turn. IIRC the bus involved was standard-size. Like anything, drivers of articulated buses need proper training just as they would for any vehicle. I tend to like the longer buses. I don’t think adding more frequent service to avoid using them makes sense. The reason transit agencies use them on heavy routes is to allow buses to handle larger passenger loads without increasing payroll costs by utilizing more drivers.