clvlndr

Yes. You'll note that on the Chester extension, very few buildings to this day actually front on Chester, and it's been some 70 years since it was extended ... And for many of us on the East Side, esp in the Heights, Chester was the closest thing we had/have to a freeway downtown. And today, even with those pesky traffic cameras, it's the preferred "fastest" route downtown -- used to be an unwritten rule that if you maintain a speed of 35 mph you could travel nonstop all the way into downtown, and it used to work (until now with more ill-timed traffic lights and the happy apartment development adjacent to CSU ... Chester, like the OC, was developed to speed traffic to/from University Circle, it was never designed to attract development... And you could argue that the OC is even worse/more extreme because the OC, is in fact, envisioned to extend an actually freeway stub with this higher speed highway "boulevard."

Your comment is simplistic and not adequately defined... Do we hate crowds at supermarkets? Traffic jams? Of course. Do we hate 20 people living in an apartment meant for a family of 4? Absolutely. But CROWDS don't equal DENSITY, the latter which many, many Americans absolutely prefer. Why do New York City and Chicago exist? Why are these cities popular both as places to live and destinations for business meetings/conventions as well as vacationers? ... Why are cities, esp. sprawling sunbelt cities like Atlanta and Dallas and Charlotte and Houston, etc., building mass transit systems and developing TOD and full-service, walkable neighborhoods to as best they can to EMULATE New York and Chicago?... Why here in Cleveland are we developing TOD neighborhoods close to transit to do the same? -- did you read the CJN article quoting Ari Maron who says MRN, deliberately, has focused all their development in areas accessible to Red Line stations? Again, E Roc, "crowds" do NOT equal density.

515 Euclid Ave, Fries & Schuele, Rock-Caesar's Collection Auto Group parking garage on Prospect, off the top of my head ... but I get your point. Nevertheless it's hard for me to be too hard on Cleveland in this regard because we have such a huge inventory of old, architechural beauties that can, and are, being repurposed into mixed-use properties, notably all over downtown and in such hot areas as Ohio City, Det-Shoreway, Larchmere (oops, will ignore 10-year old, 5-story Larchmere Lofts, an otherwise lovely high-density midrise but with its driveway and zero retail fronting the busy Larchmere strip!!). We're light years ahead of most Rust Belt cities in this regard (ref: Detroit). ... supporting the OP is K&D, who missed a major opportunity with Stonebridge. Keep in mind, had they put ground-level retail in their huge, multi-building Stonebridge complex, we'd already have what Fairmount/Wolstein is developing on Flats East Bank. K&D is probably the largest real estate holder (in terms of number of living units under single control) in the City of Cleveland, and yet they can’t seem to shake much of their single-use suburban habits.

I understand your point because the writer hints that the land is worth a lot with his "wide swath" comment. But his statement is absolutely true: this land has been purposely abandoned/underdeveloped by commercial interests and pols for decades who focused redevelopment on other areas: Ohio City, Tremont, Detroit-Shoreway -- even Hough (which, conveniently is adjacent to rapidly expanding prize jewel: Cleve Clinic ... where pre tell will all those young docs, nurses and interns live?).... The value has been driven down to the point where, now, after all those years of deliberate neglect, here comes the magic bullet that will SAVE YOU and show you residents WE CARE. Here's the magic highway that will cure all your problems you 80-90% non-car owners you...

^This really shouldn't be the case; ridership should have zero to do with the quality of buses. Capacity? Yes but NOT quality… (West Side uses stretch/articulated buses on 2 lines, #22 and #26, as opposed just the Health Line on the East Side)... maybe a check on buses for comparison out of the Triskett vs. Hayden/Windermere garages is in order.

Duval Patrick's a cool guv; very pro-transit, so this initiative is indicative... In greater Boston, the T Green Line extension to Somerville was a long planned project that was floundering... until Patrick got pushed it forward; now construction will commence soon.

This sounds like an aberration. I've ridden the HL and trolleys between Public Sq. and CSU, and have never had this happen.

Well Said!! .... Last I looked, Boston's doing quite a bit better than Cleveland in terms of commerce and downtown + neighborhood density and vibrancy -- though we are Rapidly improving ... The T is an awesome LRT, HRT, commuter train & bus network, ... while most agree that Boston's Big Dig freeway system sucks... I guess that last factor would send some Clevelanders, like the OC supporters, into conniptions.

My fingers typed First when they should have typed Fifth Amendment, where its due process clause prevents a govt. taking from private citizens by the Feds, while the 14th applies the same to the States... Thanks for the correction.

^My heart can't keep taking these games!

I do look at the Blue line terminal relocation as an extension because, tiny though it will be, it will put the rail terminal in a more convenient spot to intercept park 'n ride traffic and allow the planned TOD more space to expand... If Team Calabrese can't pull this one off...

You come from a wrong premise: that is, Cleveland is somehow difficult to drive in, when in fact, it is among the easiest driving major cities/metro areas in the country. Most commutes are 20-25 mins; people here stress out at half-hour commutes... Getting to-from CC or Univ. Circle is a snap. Stop kidding yourself, development hasn't been retarded in the Central/Kinsman area because of the lack of this highway, but because the powers-that-be haven't wanted development there. This road is a convenient rationalization for the poor condition of this neighborhood... ... and btw, there IS commercial development happening in this so-called "forgotten triangle: plants are expanding along Buckeye Road corridor and we know Orlando Bakery will soon expand upon the abandoned Van Dorn factory property -- none of these NEEDED this Opportunity Corridor!! 327, I don't hate cars; own one myself. But I do think Cleveland is constantly shooting itself in the foot in bending over backwards to accommodate cars within urbanized Cleveland with actions such as: Steelyards (which further kills downtown's chance at any serious retail along with the W. 117 big boxes, which destroyed over 100 homes... Cleveland homes!!); the Market Square strip shopping across from WSM; the W.117-Clifton strip shopping plan; Tremont as an island neighborhood surrounded by freeways, Chagrin-Lee-Avalon's destroying street retail in favor of strip shopping in 1990... -- I could go on and on and on... At some point, 327, we've got to draw the line or we will never have a serious chance for true connected urbanized walkable neighborhoods... This road is overkill and I wish you would recognize this.

I see your point. Unlike here, sports is about the only diversion in Detroit, aside from a riverfront concert or festival or an Auto Show from time to time.

For one thing, hold the planners to EXACTLY what they said they'll do, that is make this road local with traffic lights and LIMIT it to the length they stated, feeding into E. 105. Absolutely no longer. If there's ANY talk of extending this road further (which some have fanaticized) into U. Circle, up to the Heights or along the N.S. all the way to I-90), there should be hell to pay. Ditto for plans to build a branch off along the Blue-Green Lines to the Woodhill/Buckeye/Shaker intersection. I know some people really want to open this Pandora's Box (right E. Roc?) but if this road is to built, we must limit this monster to exactly what has been proposed. And NO FURTHER GRADE SEPARATIONS to make the road faster (see turning it into a true freeway, which is what many desire). No way Jose!!

We all know that decimated Detroit, which just declared bankruptcy, is packing 'em in a stadium in a city and a downtown that's far lacking in terms of the charm, amenities and public transpiration we have here in Cleveland. And their supporting a Detroit team, one that many have ticketed for the World Series, that is currently underperforming ... they're just 2.5 games ahead of us and, as of this moment, we're about 1/2 game out of the 2nd Wild Card playoff spot... At this point, I'm through gnashing my teeth about our attendance. I go to games occasionally, and I enjoy the product for what it is regardless of how many other fans are sitting around me. I just want us to go out and pick up a relief pitcher before tomorrow's trading deadline. Our rotation is really clicking now.

That's old news. Fact is, many of these factories have been vacated and torn down and there's lots of opportunities to develop TOD. And as we see in the case with Little Italy, there are areas the NS and Red Line have always gone through that have been zoned residential that the Transit agencies (both CTS and RTA) have, for whatever reason, not capitalized on. Cleveland decided long ago that this city didn't have the density to build extensive subways that go down main streets. Few if any cities of Cleveland's size and character have extensive subways. We did miss the boat on not building the downtown subway or the single line through the throat of the city: Dual Hub. But those ships have sailed, and rather than complain about what we don't have, we must make due with what we've got. There are significant opportunities for TOD along the Red Line, and finally we're finding them. And there's more opportunity to develop along the stations I've mention as well as develop around more: W. Blvd/Cudell, W. 65, W. 117 and even University Circle... there are also infill station/TOD possibilities as well like W. 85, W. 41-44, or even Lakeview in East Cleveland. Shaker Square as it is, is a nationally recognized TOD model and it remains an attractive neighborhood because of it... but it is pretty much built out and is a very high-density area for a "house city" like Cleveland. Officials need to save/rehab the buildings that exist, esp south of the Square and near Buckeye, where considerable blight has crept in, in recent years. This is true for much of the Blue and Green Lines. There is the plan for super TOD at the Van Aken terminal. Spot opportunities exist at E. 116 and maybe Lee Road, where many plans have been botched with the suburban-ish strip developed in the early 1990s... The powers that be determined it was simply too much heavy lifting to extend the Green Line 1.5 miles to I-271 where extensive TOD could have been built...but as with Dual Hub, that ship too has sailed... KJP has noted TOD possibilities along an extended Red Line which should be studied. We're a city that is light/moderate density developed around industry that was built along freight railroads. That's who we are, ... not Seattle, Frisco, D.C., Boston, etc, etc. Those freight and passenger ROW's have been exploited for the high-speed rail transit we currently have, and we should continue to look to them for much of our future transit growth.

But see where I differ with you, 327, is that these poor areas are being used as a means to ... dare we say ... conservative ends: that is cars, cars, cars, and more cars... You're a smart cookie, you know or should know that these OC folks could care less about the so-called "Forbidden Triangle"; they just want their land to build this highway through it, and their ONLY talking about this phantom development as a ruse to hold at bay the enemies that defeated (at the zero hour) the nefarious planners for previous I-490 extension projects: most notably the infamous Clark Freeway.

The First Amendment to the Constitution of the U.S. states that the State (any government in the U.S.) can't take/expropriate a person's private property without giving them just compensation in return. So these homeowners must get value for this highway. Also, I'm only going on what's happened in the past here in Cleveland, notably in the Hough property clearance/relocations of the 80s and 90s: that people got financing or other city/state supports to move into new properties. Way back when, in the 60s, my family's home too was threatened by the so-called Lee Freeway, but it was understood, at least what my Dad told us, that we'd be relocated to another home on the government's dime, which is consistent with the 1st Amendment.

^One of the positives of the Red Line is the growth/potential growth of traditional urban rapid transit patronage (walk-up riders and bus transfers), and it's only going to increase with the TOD development at W. 25 and the new Little Italy-UC station -- all this in addition to the sharp rise in apartment and condo dwellers downtown, as well.

^actually, I just used it as a parallel in terms of politically. The homes destroying aspect of OC doesn't bother me so much because, by law under the Constitution, people must be compensated for a loss of their homes. And as many have noted, many of these homes (not all) are in poor condition and the owners will likely get new digs and much nicer areas. My problem with this project is the overall impact it's going to have on the region and its transit network which, if you begin weakening it, which this plan will do, you weaken the urban fabric of surrounding neighborhoods... ... and I'll keep saying it: University Circle is growing on it's own without this damn highway, which is only getting rammed through because the CC and PD have got their Republican buddy/governor, John Kasich, to push full steam ahead. And it should be sound warning bells that this man has nothing good to say or do for Greater Cleveland.

2 courageous ladies, both still living I believe, led the environmental fight that finally killed the Clark Freeway which led to the excellent Shaker Nature Center... ...While the Clark Freeway was worse than OC, the parallels are similar. You had the dream of extending that I-490 stub Eastward into a freeway similar to the OC highway of today. Clark Freeway was the pet project of an extremely reckless, nasty conservative Democrat, Cuyahoga County Engineer Albert Porter, who hated rail transit and sought to destroy downtown with urban sprawl-by-urban freeway. Like the OC, Clark Freeway drew the interest and the backing of a downstate Republican governor, Jim Rhodes, who similarly threw his considerable political weight behind Clark Freeway and like his similar predecessor, John Kasich, despised Cleveland and was no friend of rail passenger trains (the original 3-C train service died under his leadership IIRC, and Rhodes had no interest in seeing it restarted ... and as we know, his political descendent actually killed the effort to see it restored)... at least Rhodes threw Cleveland a bone with the creation of CSU on the small Fenn College foundation. Like the OC, the Clark was to extend through the East Side destroying homes of people who overwhelmingly voted against the downstate Republican governor who backed it. Like the OC, the Clark Freeway was designed to bypass Downtown and siphon traffic, primarily West Side commuters in OC's case, away from Cleveland's CBD. Like the OC, the Clark Freeway directly paralleled a Rapid transit line (the Blue and Green Lines back then), ... and there were plans to run the outer portion of the Clark on opposite sides of the existing Green Line Rapid in the middle of widened Shaker Blvd... ... and As With The OC, there were transit plans, much like RTA's (Joe C's) of today, of running buses along the Clark to supposedly 'enhance' the Rapid ... although savvy transit planners of the day realized this road and this plan would likely kill the Shaker Rapid. ... taking it a step further was the late Harry Christiansen, newspaperman-turned-(supposed)-transit-advocate who was Porter's buddy (See: lackey) and spokesman, openly advocated ending the Shaker Rapid, paving over their tracks and running express buses over the new pavement... Crazy? Christensen's poorly-written, self published trolley picture books spouting this nonsense are in local libraries today (and maybe on Google Books, though I'd never waste my time looking them up). I believe it was George Santayana who wrote: those who don't know their history are bound to repeat it... Exhibit A: the Opportunity Corridor.

Actually this isn't unique to Cleveland. In all bus/rapid rail cities not named New York, and maybe D.C., bus riders represent the lion's share of their systems' patronage while rail is considerably more expensive to operate. In Chicago, a city most consider as having a very successful rapid transit operation, the breakdown is: Bus: 1,063,433, Rail: 761,169 (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chicago_Transit_Authority), yet I'm sure the L eats up the bulk of CTA's daily/annual expenses; not to mention periodic capital costs... Then there's Dallas, which has 85 miles of still-new DART LRT but only carries 71,600 daily riders (ref: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DART_Light_Rail) compared to the roughly 40,000 daily riders on the combined Red/Blue/Green LRT/HRT here in Cleveland... This means that, even though many consider Cleveland's rapid to be a relative "failure" passenger-wise, we're actually performing better than DART: 842 riders per (system) mile vs. RTA's 1250 per mile (based on the Rapid's approximately 32 unduplicated route miles)... ... and yet those crazy red-state conservative Texans are actually moving to expand DART, including building a parallel subway downtown to relieve rail traffic off of the streetcar/malls along Pacific and Bryan Streets. Imagine that!?

^Guess FCE can now say they're doing something for their hometown.

Sounds great. Any indication where they might place another office tower?

Worse yet, there is a feeling of hopelessness among those who believe in rail but just believe it can't happen here regardless of what's going on across the border. Before the 2010 election, I argued with a neighbor, a dyed-in-wool liberal/progressive, that election of Kasich would doom the Ohio mobility and jobs the 3-C rail would bring... He amazingly responded with the usual conservative claptrap talking points: people love their cars; Ohio is just too spread out; people want their convenience and they won't ride the trains... How the heck do you deal with a situation where folks who know better have thrown in the towel? Conservatives have really done the job here. You and the AAO folks are among the few who actually believe change can happen are fighting to make it so... But remember we voted for Kasich when killing 3-C was a centerpiece platform issue for him. Remember Joe C has generally been anti-rail expansion and even wants to run buses on the soon-built OC, but he is universally loved by his board and most of the power brokers in town. Remember that powerful Dan Gilbert has thumbed his nose at rail connection to his casino, notably extending CVSR there (which he could probably largely finance himself) and will probably block passenger rail entry to the Horseshoe's Phase II development. ... I appreciate the info in this thread because I care and it's interesting, but you're preaching to the choir. We get it-- we know Ohio could and should do the things these other states and cities are doing with rail. But what's the end game for making a dent in the huge obstacles I laid out in the previous paragraph? How do we ... how does AAO, make any type of serious headway in this very negative Cleveland/Ohio anti-rail environment? ... I'm fighting on my own level as someone who doesn't live in Cleveland full time (in fact, I live mainly elsewhere), but I can also respect those like BuckeyeB who also cares deeply, who throw in the towel and get the hell out. He at least opines eloquently on these issues here on UO....