clvlndr

A couple weeks ago, I tried transferring from the Green Line to the Red Line for a trip to University Circle's Uptown. It was a pleasant, quick experience (the still newish 15-min Red Line intervals clearly make a difference!). A couple comments/suggestions: - The new E. 55 (Red Line-Blue/Green Line transfer) station is very pleasant; light-years better than it's dumpy predecessor, but the relatively long walk between stations from under the E. 55th bridge with no canopy can be problematic. Fortunately the day I went, it was a nice day; no problem, but I could see it getting messy during heavy rain or other inclement Cleveland weather: and there was a goodly crowd moving between the Red Line platforms and the fancy new E. 55 head house... Is there any way some kind of walkway canopy can be added to this otherwise excellent new station? . Euclid- E. 120 Red Line Sta. Yes, we know that, happily, the new Little Italy-UC station will open in a couple years. Meanwhile, conditions at the existing station are deplorable and need to be upgraded. I'm mainly not talking about the station itself, which isn't in too bad a shape, although a periodic mop 'n bucket (with serious ammonia) would help the pee smells in the station stairwell... I was surprised that there were about 7-8 people who got off the train (mostly Case/CIA looking kids)... My main issue is the hideous walk under the extremely wide Rapid/RR overpass on Euclid: there is ZERO lighting; there is dirt, mud and probably (again) urine -- why isn't RTA doing anything about this? ... Just because the new, relocated station is coming, there's no reason why some money can't be spent in the interim for lighting and cleaning of this station and esp under the bridge tunnel (which must be even more frightening to women traveling alone... and please, I hope RTA doesn't duck this as City of Cleveland responsibility, because I'm sure a large number (if not greater %) of the pedestrians under that bridge are Red Line riders... ... Jerry? JetDog? what do you guys think about these issues?

I'd like such a line that would drop down into the existing Det-Superior subway deck then jog over to the West portal of Tower City using the old Shaker Rapid terminal... but it probably is not going to happen. It would run too close to the existing Red Line where, for example, the West 65th station is .4 mile from the heart of Gordon Square (W. 65 & Detroit). There are much wider areas town that can be served -- like the proposed Red Line out to Euclid Square. While serving dense walkable neighborhoods is great, we shouldn't just reject extensions because they have park 'n ride features. Other cities that have as great of density and more than Cleveland are building park 'n ride rapids -- Seattle, Minneapolis, Denver, St. Louis and Dallas ... to name a few. And all of these, with the possible exception of Dallas, are wildly popular/successful with the riding public.

While I appreciate the information on this thread as informing us what's happening other places regarding rail expansion, it's also frustrating because there's no passenger rail expansion going on here in Ohio other than Cincy's small streetcar system... It's all the more frustrating that Kasich, the Amtrak/transit slayer, is allegedly gaining in the polls, meaning the long-term outlook for passenger rail and rail transit ain't good.

^You got me dude, but as we see, there are some serious snake oil salesmen when it comes to this boondoggle. And as we're seeing, there's not only a huge market for snake oil around here, there's a lot of multi-level marketing going on, too.

Very nice spread, Ink... A few years ago, I dreaded a biz trip to W-B because I knew how dull and boring it would be... but I was pleasantly surprised by it's relative sophistication and friendliness -- the downtown public square sandwiched between Wilkes College, on one side, and King's Coll, on the other, makes the place more young and alive than similar towns... And the downtown architecture, which you so well captured, surprised me. (real bummer about the Sterling -- when we were there, there was optimism that a buyer would be found and the building, saved... damn shame). Oh yeah, and how about little Wilkes-Barre with a major department store like Boscov's, while we in major metropolitan Cleveland would do back flips for such a place... oh well.

Completely disagree. Rapid transit is as much, if not more-so, designed to direct urban growth and create density as it is to connect existing built-up populations. With your thinking, historic rapid rail such as the Shaker (Blue-Green) lines or the New York subway (as steam-driven elevated train lines in its original form), to name a few, would have never been built. If you study the history, those lines were built out into farm land and created dense, walkable neighborhoods, esp in NYC and at Shaker Square (actually, Shaker would have had had more apartments and density had not the Van Sweringen Co. initially banned apartment building within Shaker Hts.)... You can't look at Cleveland's Midtown, or any area, and say they would not have grown TOD density if the subway had been built. That's craziness. TOD IS happening but it has been slow in coming largely because of the road-building mentality/lobby here coupled with an equally historic weak advocacy for transit. The Red Line was designed for bus transfers and, I agree, park & ride, because officials decided long ago that subways were too expensive for this area and so, as you know, freight rail lines tend to draw industrial uses and that puts distance between transit and people. However, Jmecklenborg a couple years ago noted that little Buffalo built a straight-up-the-gut subway that would have been equal in length and similar in function to the proposed Dual-Hub route; and though Buffalo to date has refused to expand their starter line, it's been a success passenger-wise... But Cleveland has/is evolving. TOD is seriously being planned: at FEB, at Ohio City and at University Circle, esp the soon-to-be relocated UC-Little Italy station... One of our prime recent developers, Ari Maron, noted that all of MRN's development is deliberately along the Red Line (Ohio City, Downtown/E. 4th and UC-Uptown) so as to create dense, walkable areas... and as we know, MRN is batting 1,000% when it comes to the growth and success of their mixed-use development. If we've learned anything in Cleveland, it's that always building on the cheap ... gets you cheap results (just look at the slowness, overcrowding and quick unit replacement cycle of the HL) . The Van Swerigens through their paper holding companies, built a tremendously expensive rapid transit network (including the mammoth underground, mixed use terminal/office/shopping complex and it's off-street rail access in the center of town), both the finished (in their lifetimes) Shaker lines and the planned Red Line that opened decades later... Had they settled for streetcars or even a cheap/half-ass/slow interurban/suburban trolley route, there would be no Rapid at all in Cleveland today... But the speed of the Shaker Rapid (it's as fast as or faster than cars into Public Sq during rush hour, even now) created quality housing demand, and TOD, thus assuring the Rapid's survival into the Auto Age ... while all the streetcars disappeared... a form of Transit Darwinism... but we still long for the cheap and the easy ... This whole Opportunity Corridor ram-through is based on the public's belief (and ignorance) that all things relating to roads and rubber tires will be a success, . . . while all things rail transit-related are controversial and failures... ... for example, how many people (except me and maybe a few others) recognize that the Waterfront Line is largely responsible for, and will lead to the success of the dense new neighborhood rising at FEB? It's been Cleveland's refusal to understand the WFL's benefits despite it's imperfections, will constantly turning the City's collective back on WFL TOD development ... until now. The problem has been more Cleveland's than it has been the WFL's... Meanwhile, once OC is built, people will bend over backward to tell you how necessary and what an advantage it is... that's just how we Clevelanders are wired ... sadly.

It would be nice if we could get this kind of unified public official push for rail transit expansion. But that's pie-in-the-sky for Cleveland... I shake my head when I think about how great the Euclid corridor would have been -- with dense, TOD and vibrant, walkable neighborhoods along it's route to Windermere -- had we gone ahead and built the damn Dual Hub subway. Nope, not enough political and civic guts... But building this urban highway is all the transportation expansion we're capable of (with the bizarre situation of having a Transit Chief who runs a rail network and, yet, is against any expansion of it), despite renewed interest in walkable urban neighborhoods -- and no, this thinly veiled commuter roadway for West Siders will NOT create such areas.

McNulty raises a good point about this... Out-of-town friends of mine who I take to Ohio City often note that there are several fire trucks and/or other emergency response vehicles through W. 25th multiple times. Something needs to be worked out esp. given the increasing positive congestion in the Market Square area.

The opinion is that RTA under Joe C has been disinterested in rail extension, not maintaining and enhancing existing rail. Actually, those things you cite I applaud Joe for... I also have given him major props for implementing the POP fare system on the Red Line, which has allowed for longer trains and speedier service.

The height restriction is per the U.S. Capitol, not the Washington Monument... Carry on.

Very insightful, there IS something fishy going on. When the Slavic Village councilman suddenly flip-flopped in favor of this, despite the fact that it will plow through homes right in the OC's path -- something he raised in protest ... initially, makes me wonder what's really up here...

THANK YOU!!

I think your analysis is spot on... Also, despite all the analysis/pre-clearance hoops a city must jump through to get Fed money for rail expansion capital, and that the Fed matching dollars aren't what they used to be, I believe the FTA still provides a 50% match (someone please correct me if I'm wrong)... What makes RTA unique, even before Joe C (the Dual Hub fiasco), but especially since his 2001 appointment as GM, is that most cities set an agenda for rail expansion, pick one or more routes for future expansion and THEN let the feds shoot it down if they find the plan unfeasible... In Cleveland, we never even get rail plans to the Feds because we shoot them down before they get to the Feds... I'll admit, this Red Line expansion proposal is a departure from RTA's M.O. which is why it has me somewhat surprised... ... but is Joe C. really pushing for a rail expansion option? Don't hold your breath.

My point isn't so much about Lorain County as it is to highlight that Joe C's expansion plans are all bus, all the time. While I'm not expecting a city and county losing population to run heavy or even light rail to all corners, I do think there are reasonable rail expansion possibilities that are being ignored, particularly since WE DO HAVE AN EXISTING RAPID RAIL SYSTEM, the only one in the State ... As an example of Joe C's attitude toward rail, I don't think anyone is expecting anything but Health Line/BRT expansion out Euclid to the border from the Stokes/Windermere station, and that RTA is not interested in any rail expansion, even if it's KJP's legit idea of diesel commuter rail over the existing NS tracks beyond Windermere. ... oh, I did overlook one aspect: Joe C is for one rail expansion project ... the .3 mile Blue Line extension to the other side of the Chagrin-Warrensville intersection... ... I guess we should rejoice in Joe's embrace of TOD. I suspect that's about the most interest in rail we're going to get from him.

Who are you talking about? Because if you're talking about West Siders, they can park at a West Side Red Line stop and either ride straight through to the rebuilding UC-Cedar Glen Station or the soon-to-be relocated UC-Little Italy station. To get to the Clinic, they can transfer to the Health Line at Tower City for a direct ride to CC's front door. Where is the inconvenience? There's no OC currently and many people are already using these transit options to get to CWRU, University Hospital, Uptown, Little Italy and many places in between... and, if you haven't noticed, University Circle is the hottest investment ticket in the region for multiunit housing, while UC rents are skyrocketing -- under EXISTING conditions. So where's crying need for the OC?... Are you say people can't use transit or are they just closed minded and lazy?

It makes a difference because drivers/commuters would NOT have their cars at the destination end: University Circle, an area that is already compact, extremely well served by the Red Line, HL, UCI "greenie" buses and a number of RTA bus routes. Even without the OC, cars are choking Univ. Circle, esp. during rush hour. The OC is only going to compound the problem as it will encourage West Siders NOT to park and take the Red Line, but drive all the way into crowded University Circle. Why does this make more sense (to the tune of $350M)? Wouldn't it make more sense if these cars are parked in West Side Red Line lots while workers/visitors take the Red Line and walk to their destinations?

I totally agree, BuckeyeB!

I don't thinks so MTS... Remember that PD article a couple years ago talking about RTA's plans for expanded BRT? The PD depicted routes up Kinsman and Buckeye paralleling the Shaker Rapid, among others. Jerry denied this was RTA's plan, but the PD didn't pull the info out of thin air. Joe C has clearly made it clear that his dream for RTA expansion is all bus and not rail... that should be legit reason for concern. Thanks MTS.

Keith, on another board, noted that some of us think Joe C is anti-rail, while others have objected to this characterization... ... Well can somebody explain how Joe C has been silent on rail expansion plans, notably the very-worthy West Shore commuter rail plan; in-part purportedly because RTA doesn't want to finance transit in substantially-growing Lorain County which doesn't want to tax itself to pay for any mass transit, while at the same time being ALL FOR running buses from the same Lorain County along the Opportunity Corridor highway (which he adamantly supports) to University Circle? ... Seems Keith made the right call...

Those ODOT helicopter photos are kinda cool, but they argue against the OC more than for it... How many Cleveland areas are served by multiple stations on multiple rail lines? Answer: not many. No one has still answered why money just can't be spent upgrading businesses and housing around existing streets and upgraded rail stations as opposed to reaching in our pockets for $350M for this 'magic highway.' And it seems the pro-OC faction of UOers doesn't seem to want to comment about RTA's folly of wanting to run buses along the OC that will likely siphon riders away from our vastly improving heavy-rail Red Line. ... I guess rail transit just isn't all that important to the extent some of us are cool with spending taxpayers' hard-earned $350M for a roadway that very well may help kill it while simultaneously contributing to Cleveland's urban sprawl and against its walk-ability... I'm sure Cincy, Milwaukee or KC would just love for us to relocate the Red Line to their cities... :wtf:

Interesting Victorian and Art Deco architecture. I like how many of Chicago's burbs have substantial downtowns, largely centered around commuter rail stations.

I'm fine with that because mass transit would not benefit anyway. And with Calabrese's plan to run buses along the OC in competition with the Red Line, transit will be setback. What really pisses me off about this project, is that with all the rail mass transit expansion that could make sense for a growing downtown and University Circle, this road/highway is likely all we're going to get. This isn't about Clinic bashing, because I LOVE the Clinic and all the advantages it brings to this community locally and internationally. I also love all that Dan Gilbert has done for downtown... That said, it doesn't mean that these powerful entities/people can't be bullies whose demands and projects actually hurt their community unwittingly. This would be great, but Cleveland (neither RTA nor local pols) has not until recently given any serious consideration to TOD... the Uptown/Intesa push as well as the proposed new W. 25/Ohio City Red Line station-mixed-use apartment complex and FEB are evidence that we finally are understanding and embracing TOD, which is refreshing... the OC is a giant step backwards as I see it because it is the antithesis of TOD... of course Joe Calabrese's RTA once had a display at the Tower City Rapid station touting Crocker Park as TOD ... That only exemplifies the lack of local understanding of what TOD is all about, and why people today are waywardly touting this OC highway as a TOD generator.

^And the fact is, this so called Opportunity Corridor would never have materialized if it wasn't a direct feed to, and extension of, I-490, which IS a full fledged, limited-access freeway. It has been a dream to extend a freeway into or near the Eastern suburbs since Albert S. Porter, the subway killer, tried to ram the Clark Freeway through the Shaker Lakes until community activists killed rose up enough stink that Gov. Jim Rhodes, a downstate Republican like Kasich, yanked funding... The BIG difference is that Porter was dumb enough to try and run his highway through some homes of some of wealthiest, politically powerful individuals in Cuyahoga County. The Opportunity Corridor folks are slick enough to want to ram it through the homes of the poorest... Yet folks (even on this board) want to showcase and exploit the poverty of these folks as if this highway is their sole salvation... ... never mind that, starting during Voinovich's mayoralty, and accelerating during Mike White's term and through to the current Jackson admin, there has been project after project where all-new, quality housing has risen on formerly rundown properties... does the names of Beacon Place, Lexington Village, Longwood and, most recently, Garden Valley strike a bell? These all new townhouse developments range from federally subsidized housing to market-rate, tax-amnesty units... several of which have drawn national praise for Cleveland in whipping out blight and given often poor residents quality properties that they are proud of and take care of... ... So why, suddenly, do we need this HIGHWAY to recreate the progress we've been in the recent decades? ANSWER: Because Cleveland Clinic demands it and because too many West Siders want a quick access away from the "scary" poor areas containing low-income African Americans. And now the RTA GM is telling us he wants to run BRT buses over it which will siphon riders from the parallel, heavy-rail Red Line on the cheap. And just as with the absurd, history wrecking demands of Dan Gilbert with his casino, our obsequious pols bend over and,... well, you know the graphic metaphor. That's the way we roll here and Cleveland, and then we scratch our heads at why this community seems to be stuck in neutral.

There is a planned grade separation at Kinsman and there'll be limited intersections compared to most main streets on the East Side, even Chester... sounds like a highway to me... Oh and btw, RTA General Manager stated yesterday that the agency plans to run buses from the far West Side into University Circle over the OC -- as in BRT ... meaning that they would COMPETE with the existing, very useful and civic gem the Red Line. To wit: "Calabrese said he could also see adding bus service on the boulevard to connect workers on the far west side of the county to new jobs in University Circle’s medical and educational institutions." http://www.cleveland.com/architecture/index.ssf/2013/07/rtas_joe_calabrese_transit_can.html This is progressive? Not like maybe busing those same West Side workers into existing West Side Red Line stations (ie Brookpark, Puritas or Triskett) to the new and relocated U. Circle Red Line stations for jobs at existing (and new) employers for, oh say, $350+M LESS than building this highway boondoggle and burning more fuel, more employee hours, expanded bus maintenance, etc., etc. ... along a road which of course we're told is designed to establish TOD to help the poor Forgotten Triangle residents? ... really? ... oh and while you're at it, piss in my face and tell me it's raining.

^^It seems the TOD bug has finally (re)bitten greater Cleveland... And that's a malady worth having. ... Good stuff by Litt; excellent comments by Calabrese (save his misguided support for the Opportunity Corridor on which he plans to run buses that will HURT TOD and compete with the Rapid). Let's hope RTA, and the City, stand by his words... The planned Ohio City station/apartment development, along with Uptown (and FEB), are good starts.... X your fingers for Intesa, which by today's comments appears to be moving forward.