clvlndr

Good question. When GCRTA terminated weekday operations, it had been operating the WFL with the Green Line going through to the Waterfront Line. The trains then returned east as Blue Line trains. So no matter what, at least half the riders had to transfer either coming or going. If it were up to me, I'd pick one of the lines to run through Tower City. And I'd probably pick the Green Line since it has fewer riders than the Blue Line. I'd like to beef up that line's ridership. Of course, if money were no object, I'd run both lines through to the WFL but I'd probably want to see more development along the WFL first. Especially with CSU's housing starting to spread north toward the lake. I'd like to see this rail extension to help accelerate development of the no-man's land between downtown and Asiatown. I thought sometime back, Jerry indicated that RTA may run both the Blue and Green lines through during non rush hour. It make sense because it would establish a 15 minute base for the Waterfront Line. The half-hourly schedule, now used on weekends, would make no sense for such a short, downtown oriented line. People can walk the distance in that amount of time waiting for trains and even the workers, hotel guests and restaurant visitors wouldn't even bother with the WFL unless it had the fairly frequent 15-min base. Half hourly trains would doom the Waterfront Line to failure.

"Main Avenue" station? Is RTA planning on changing Flats East Bank's name?

This is good to know.

It's called the Old Boys Network.

^MTS is correct, you can't blame Gilbert for the money-grubbing shenanigans of the Stanley Block's owners who let it deteriorate. Also, the building was shoe-horned in a dead zone of downtown even before Horseshoe came to be -- which is probably why the owners let it sit there and rot for decades. I hate to lose history, but this was a small building who's impact, had it survived, would have been minimal. Again, I'm wondering what you're reading. In case you hadn't noticed, Horseshoe just added 24 new gaming tables due to demand -- Cleveland's is one of the few casinos that generates more money from tables as opposed to slots... I've been in Pittsburgh's casino. It's pretty run-of-the-mill if you ask me, and it has generated very little if any development around it. It sits off at the far edge of Northside downtown. Temporary, Phase I, permanent, whatever you want to call the Higbees casino, I'll take it over 3-Rivers anyday in terms of the vitality and impact it is giving downtown Cleveland over the latter's in Pittsburgh.

I fail to understand how Gilbert is a "fool" who is just playing Cleveland, MissinOhio. No question he has been heavy-handed in his approach at times and has destroyed a couple landmark buildings and (imho) foolishly continues to fight for that defacing skybridge over Prospect Ontario. But I don't see the big deal in his investing in the Greektown Casino and hotel. Greektown has been open for over a decade, and the hotel has been up for 4-5 years. Detroit is Gilbert's hometown. I've heard criticism of the Horseshoe (ie, the table minimums are high) but lackluster isn't one of them. Besides, if you been following the development, the Horseshoe is unique in the nation in that is the only casino developed in the heart of a major city and was designed to interact with its surroundings (restaurant, retail and live entertaiment) rather than exist as the island the way most casinos do. I really don't get your anger here.

I generally agree. The Indians, though, have made a lot of moves and, for once, the Dolans are spending money; esp. the Swisher deal... Still, I think Gilbert runs a much more stable organization; clearly Cleveland's best sports owner.

IIRC about a decade ago, RTA tried combining the old No. 6 with the 28 bus routes, with the result being one long bus route from Euclid (down Euclid Ave) into downtown Cleveland. This idea failed, apparently because RTA realized that the high-frequency, short-commute 6 was not compatible with the longer commute, less-dense 28. So RTA reverted back to the old 6 (now the Health Line, of course) and the still-existing 28, extending from the Stokes-Windermere Red Line Rapid terminal out to Euclid, as it always has. The point being that, a new plan to extend the Health Line out Euclid simply wouldn't make sense. The concept of central East Cleveland-based rail head (Stokes-Windermere) with radial feeder bus routes, like the 28, is well engrained in the commuter culture of the far Northeast Side… Extending rapid rail service out to Euclid (or beyond) is the only thing that makes sense. And let’s, for once, go for the gold: extend the current Red Line as a full, heavy rail route the 6 or 7 miles to near the Lake County line. If a similar size declining (in population) Rust Belt city like St. Louis can extend its rail system a twisting 9 miles (fully grade separated, with subway tunnels, elevated sections, along freeway and RR rights of way), why can’t we extend the Red Line a shorter distance along an open, existing RR ROW and where, possibly (with some negotiation) even use the RR tracks themselves, thereby causing little-to-no right of way building? The St. Louis Metrolink 9 mile extension to Shrewsbury opened in 2006; St. Louis has 47 total miles of rail to Cleveland’s 32, just so you know.

Yay!

Totally agreed. Cincinnati will be able to claim its streetcar here soon, and that may be more TOD-oriented than Cleveland's Rapid system. However I envision a number of upgrades in coming years to the Rapid that will foster a lot more TOD. Cleveland's improving TOD-wise... Also, I think people tend to forget that all those apts and condos grouped around Van Aken rapid stops are older examples of higher-density TOD.

I agree it's a state problem (look, we happily elected John "3-C/Amtrak Killer" Kasich as gov), but not a national problem. Cities from Boston to Charlotte to Houston to Salt Lake City to Denver (etc) are aggressively extending their rail transit systems... JJames, I defy you to show many ANY city in the country with a substantial, well established rapid rail system as Cleveland's where rail expansion is so difficult and controversial. ... The extreme push to build this OC road/semi-highway right through the heart of urbanized area adjacent to our Rapid transit lines crystallizes Cleveland's folly... And I get KJP's noting officials' utilizing road building to clean EPA Superfund sites like those that exist in this corridor. Still, it doesn't ease our local obstinacy toward expanding our rail systems while pouring hundreds of millions of dollars into new roads and their concomitant maintenance at taxpayer's expense -- and to be used by a generally narrow portion of our electorate, such as those living SW of the city trying to get to jobs, etc. in U. Circle. In the face of all the progress Greater Cleveland is seeing, this lingering backwardness is extremely frustrating.

^pretty amazing. I just wish more folks understood what smart growth expanded mass transit can bring. ie It took Los Angeles a long time before the light bulb clicked on, but now LA gets it, and they can't extend rapid transit fast enough!

Wait a minute: $220 million for a 2-3/4 mile boulevard??? How about $220 million in transit improvements for the same area? Why do we seem to always default to more roads??? This in an area where up to 25% of residents do not own a motor vehicle. Notice also that this road parallels the RTA Red LIne. Now what do you suppose the effect on RTA's ridership will be? Hmmm... I agree completely, BuckeyeB. The hypocrisy irritates me. This road has been sold as everything from the savior of the conveniently-dubbed "Forgotten Triangle" (where 75% of the locals don’t have cars to drive on it) to the lifeline of University Circle that will simply die without it – even the name “Opportunity Corridor” is a misleading farce to dupe people into supporting it. Did anybody think about the fact that, with similar length rail line (to the OC) you could extend the Red Line to downtown Lakewood, the 2nd densest populated city between Philly and Chicago? And with such an extension, thousands of Lakewood-ers could have a 1-seat rail ride to the Univ. Circle’s exploding employment center. But no, rail expansion is always deemed controversial in this town while expanding roads and strip shopping is always sold as critical. This wasteful roadway is only 2.7 miles for $220 million, while people are still grumbling about the near 20-year old Waterfront Line which only cost $60 million and is generating more urban-friendly TOD with the Flats East Bank development… Any suggestion of rail extension gets people riled up in Cleveland; we ran RTA’s Ron Tober out of town for even broaching the subject. Just shows how screwed up our priorities are.

Oh yes they were. Chicago lost a lot of rail, especially streetcars, interurbans and even some El lines. They were lucky they didn't lose more. Some of the newer sections of El were built along freight rail lines (ie: Orange Line) or highways (ie: Blue Line extension to O'Hare in the Kennedy Expressway, or Red Line to the Dan Ryan), and some inner sections were rerouted along highways (ie: Blue Line into the Eisenhower). Ironically, now that most of the industries along the Red Line are gone, there exists an opportunity to redevelop those areas with land uses that have a mix and a level of density necessary to provide the Red Line with ridership levels that are more consistent with those of other rail transit lines in other cities. As you noted earlier in you excellent pictorial lesson on late 19th Century New York, a few American big cities, (Chicago included) developed along rapid transit lines; that many areas of Chicago's L were built into farmlands. People therefore moved TO transit stops and density naturally developed. We have a smaller example here where the Shaker Rapid was built into similarly desolate areas, and now Shaker Square (highly dense) and Shaker Heights developed along the rails in the 19-teens and '20s... ... The Red Line is too young for that kind of influence; it opened in the mid-50s well into the post WWII auto explosion and, of course, along freight rail routes with factories that, even then, were aging and being replaced by advanced, less-labor intense manufacturing technology .... That doesn't mean there aren't plenty of areas along the Red Line that TOD can't be developed. Uptown and Intesa at the new UC-Little Italy station is just one example.

Again, I don't see how anybody could "freak out" about this project because it (all phases) have been before the Planning Commission for years. Are people so naive, or negative, as to believe that a project's next phase won't happen until it's been financially green-lighted and the shovels are ready to go into the ground? Presumably the Hessler obstructionists were placated by UCI (as negotiators) by Phase I's low slung development (which some UOers have, somewhat understandably, grumbled about). Hessler griped that previously planned towers, which they fought and defeated, would cast shadows on their quaint little neighborhood. Phase II is 7 stories. Is that too tall? Again, where were all these people during PD's Michelle Jarboe-McPhee's excellent reporting on this (as well as PD's Steve Litt's extensive positive reviews)? If Conwell's being a toll booth operator, or whatever, he's really doing a horrible job of keeping his constituents informed, which they should have been through all planning phases of this most important project. And now to act surprised that Phase II is going to happen and that people (constituents) are somehow being caught off guard, is the height of absurdity ... and hypocrisy.

^ What rock has Councilman Conwell been living under? These plans have been before the public for years... This is a huge positive development for University Circle and Cleveland, at learge. I can't imagine why the Councilman would not have his eyes and ears tuned into this project, espcially since a) it was 1st proposed, what? the better part of 10 years ago, b) it's been under construction since around 2009 and, c) Phase I has been complete structurally since last winter. Phase II, in much the form as has been proposed, has been out there for some time. Shouldn't the Councilman have been checking/inquiring about it's impact long before a few weeks when shovels are to go into the ground? I would think so, ... but call me crazy.

Very nice thread eurokie, makes one appreciate Cleveland's advantages with good mass transit, esp the Rapid... You're attitude toward the Health Line BRT mirrors mine: I don't love it... but I'm glad we have it as a major tool in our transit arsenal.

Yeah, and I'd like to have seen the out clauses in that agreement. These were the same Gunds who took Cleveland's only NHL team, the re-constituted Barons, merged them with the old Minnesota North Stars, and moved the team out of Cleveland to the Twin Cities.

I disagree. I'm not talking about immediately, but I believe the Cavs would have been more vulnerable to move. Remember, Gund/Paxson botched the Boozer deal that robbed us a more viable shot at the title -- we have not yet had a power forward of Boozer's capacity since. The organization was clearly stagnant, heading downward when Gund decided to sell. Had he not sold, esp to Gilbert, there's every reaason to believe that LeBron would not have re-upped for the 4 years that he did. Gilbert came in and fired Paul Silas (and a number of Clevelanders jumped on Gilbert as too brash). Not only did Silas fail to take LeBron teams to the playoffs twice (I count the 2nd year when he was fired too, because Silas was here for most of that 2nd season and charted its direction), there's also many who believe it was Silas' attitude (toward Boozer) that led him to bolt for Utah. Gilbert brought in the attitude that this franchise would strive for excellence and that money would be no object. Gilbert lit a fire that got Mike Brown and Danny Ferry; cobbled an elite team that went to the Cavs' first championship. After that, we won 66 and 61 games in consecutive regular seasons. Few in their right minds blame Gilbert for LeBron's leaving although, reasonably, they could have blamed Gund given the lethargic direction the Gund-owned club was headed in.... Gilbert was (and is) aggressive; that has permeated the organization and this, in itself, has galvanized fan interest -- even to this day, 3 seasons after "The Decision" and with a horrible (record-wise) team. Gund had a good run in the 80s and 90s, but was running this team into ground. A 3rd playoff-less LeBron team would have not only turned off fans but LeBron as well and, once again, probably would have led to his leaving earlier than he did. The team is solidly here now and is highly respected in its operation. In Gilbert, for once, we have a Cleveland sports owner with goo-gobbs of cash and who is bullish on building a championship team -- all too rare for NEO... Despite the horrible record (which I tend to blame more on Byron Scott than I do either Chris Grant or Gilbert), people are still willing to stick with this team. And with Kyrie Irving, Dion Waiters (the leading scoring backcourt in the NBA), Tyler Zeller and Tristan Thompson (yes, the kid's a work in progres, but he's solid, works very hard and improving considerably lately) there's reason to have faith. I'm not abolutely saying that the Cavs would have left, but it could have been a possibility had Dan Gilbert not bought this team.

MissinOhio, as an urban fan (and an even bigger Cleveland homer-fan) ANYBODY who invests heavily to seriously enhance the urban character of Cleveland is a "hero" -- Gilbert is one of several who I've mentioned. In this holiday season of "it's A Wonderful Life" you may want to look at Gilbert as George Bailey: what would Cleveland be like if Gilbert never lived (or at least, never came here)? You'd certainly have an empty, hulking former department store on Publis Square (and a dark, largely lifeless Public Sq. around Tower City); many fewer offices in the largely empty buildings around Public Square and, perhaps, the Cavs playing in another city.

People get hung up about what Gilbert's motives or his reputation is supposed to be.... I could care less about that. I'm not one to look a gift horse in the mouth...What's important is that we have one of the (too few) power brokers who's aggressively developing, bringing excitement and entertainment to downtown Cleveland, a long with a few thousand new jobs. And let's face it, the Cavs were going nowhere fast under Gordon Gund, and Gilbert has took the team and the building and raised them to the level of 1st class even if we don't agree with their every move... Has he been a bit heavy handed (the LeBron letter, the Columbia Building/Stanley block; non-interest in CVSR that could run multi-train car excursions to his casino)? Sure he has, but the absence of a pair of brass ones wouldn't have propelled him to where he is... And the fact that he is a Detroiter/non-Clevelander is actually refreshing because there's long been and old-school Ratner-esque lethargy among home-grown Cleveland developers --- the Marons, K&D and a few others, excluded.

This isn't a plus, to me, as sprawling and car centric as Dallas is! Even though Greater Cleveland is less sprawling than Dallas, businesses here tend to practice Cleveland tried and true developmental format: FOD (freeway oriented development), and that includes campus-like businesses like Progressive (what an paradoxical name, in this context)

I love the design of Uptown, esp its contrast with black-diamond/cube MOCA next door, the large, classic-old NYC-style high-rise mixed-use apartment buildings (University East and Commodore Place) across the street, ... not to mention the contrast with older brownstone and Tudor apt walk-ups and houses on such nearby streets as Hessler, Ford, Bellflower ... and others. Diversity Works!

APTA. Now im really confused. RTA just posted this on their facebook. "A RECORD -- RTA's Red Line carried more than 760,000 passengers last month -- the highest November ridership in more than 40 years. For the year-to-date, Red Line ridership is up 9.6 percent over 2011. Thank you for your support. We're happy to serve you." Wow, that's fantastic... So what's driving that sharp increase? The casino? Stronger dowtown, generally? Stronger Ohio City? The bus line cuts? ... other?

So sorry to hear this bad news. Never met Robert "Rob", but always enjoyed his posts. He seemed to be an honorable gentleman... and he was truly a storehouse of knowledge, not just about rail, but about cities. His archives of old photos he took of Cleveland, to name one, was amazing. And he never failed to take us aboard his many train trips into Chicago from Ft. Wayne to the U of C medical center for his cancer treatments-- thoughtful enough to post a full photo essay of his journey to what had to be a painful and difficult experience... and yes, he was very smart and witty... Rob's presence on UO was huge, and definitely will be missed.