clvlndr

^^Thanks Jerry. I personally was thinking of driving to the Farnsleigh Blue Line station, taking the Rapid downtown then returning on the #14. Hopefully we can get the late night rail service because I really don't think a bus substitute is an adequate substitution for rail, esp on the weekends, where there are large numbers of people wanting to stay downtown late, and esp on weekends where there is inclement weather... Jerry, at least I hope RTA officials review what was done by the previous administration which ran rail service until 2:30a on weekend nights during the summer when the Flats was in its heyday.

You raise an interesting point... Consider how, a year or so ago (prior to even the Horseshoe construction), how dead Ontario was, on both sides of the street, from Public Sq. to the stadiums (and beyond if there was not sporting event in either one)... The only respite was Fat Fish Blue... Now flash forward to last week: Prospect-Ontario one of the hottest corners in downtown, with a traffic cop, during busy hours (like last night), thrown in... btw, the visual excitement of Prospect-Ontario along with the prominent vista of the casino at this intersection, has now converted me to one who is mildly against the overhead walkway to being staunchly against it... Gilbert needs to lay his sword down, conceded the battle and move on -- hopefully to Phase II of the casino and, possibly, a new hotel (the crazy occupancy rates now may help a new, substantial hotel materialize). Gilbert should just settle with golf cart-like shuttles of the elderly and/or disabled to/from the Welcome Center. Can the friggin' walkway.

Friday night, all of lower Prospect Ave was a parking lot, even more than an hour after the Indians game (and fireworks) had ended. Several RTA buses, like the #14 and 15, were sitting idly amongst a sea of stuck cars. They actually had to close the E. 4th Street valet for a time; they were swamped; I'll bet their valet drivers couldn't even exit the valet area onto Prospect (and then to whatever lot or garage they take cars to) because of the gridlock -- so they simply blocked the E. 4th St. car entrance with bollards and stopped taking in cars. Rarely has such a traffic jam seemed so glorious.... Nevertheless, glad we took the Rapid!

^Cabbies are clearly having a field day. Seeing them line up in front of Terminal Tower reminds me of old 1940s photos... It certainly seems that the Horseshoe 'throw-off' is boosting both E. 4th & the WHD.

That's unbelievable.

That would be ideal, and make sense, since the possibility of influencing large numbers of people to ride comfortably to the door of his casino exists... But it appears Gilbert is indifferent to CVSR. He seems more intent on creating more parking and connecting his "welcome center" parking garage to the Higbee Building via the diagonal overhead walkway over the Prospect/Ontario intersection.

OK, they sure look like weeds to me. Nevertheless, I like the idea of seeing the outdoor eaters from the street, but these, er, plants tend to hide them... Guess it's a buffer from the traffic ... I guess.

Yes, it was off the hook down there. There was a carnival/fun atmosphere that I haven't seen in Cleveland absent St. Paddy's day. More important, everyone both inside the (packed) casino and on the streets were happy/having fun. I do attribute a lot of the boost to the Indians game. By the time we arrived downtown (via the Green Line Rapid), the fireworks at the Game had just ended, but, perhaps some of the Indians 30,000 left earlier because we lost the game. Nevertheless, both Euclid and (esp) Prospect were total gridlock with cars, and the sidewalks were jammed with people. We didn't gamble, but decided just to take in the whole casino scene... The place was swamped with people. Everything was 1st class inside; the gaming areas, the food court, the buffet and the bar/lounge... Flat screen TVs were everywhere and we really enjoyed food at old fave Corky & Lenny's, while looking down on Prospect (towards the Landmark Office towers) from the 2nd floor window. We made the fatal mistake of leaving the Horseshoe expecting to get back in (when we went, we just walked in). But by the time we left, lines were everywhere, and given our limited time downtown (thanks to RTA's rigid early-to-bed Rapid schedule, which left gamblers scrambling to rush out for their last train), we just decided to do-the-do downtown, and hit a couple outdoor bars on E. 4th, and Hodges, at 668. The whole experience was simply amazing: Public Sq., in front of Tower City, was jammed with cabbies, limos and the like, and people were swarming in and out of TC in waves. The newly redone plaza in front TC's famed portico is excellent (though, I'm a tad steamed that it took a casino next door for city officials to fix the spooky-dark lighting leading to TC and that Rapid -- guess we mere regular Rapid riders and commuters simply weren't good enough; jeez). Jakes, the tiny NY-style deli on Ontario/Euclid was swamped, as was nearly every bar and restaurant within blocks.... It was Cleveland like you never see it.... We walked around to the Renaissance Hotel side of the Square and noted that the wall of humanity kept coming and going as far as the eye could see toward the WHD. I think the Horseshoe is a downtown game changer. Even though throngs will die down somewhat, I think those new to downtown/haven't been for years crowd will return to the casino, and other stuff, just because they saw how fun Cleveland can be. That's the hope, anyway.

Isn't Luxe a pretty nice/quality restaurant that is right in the heart of G/S? Stone Mad, which seems more br than restaurant but is still reasonably a quality place, is just a few blocks away from G/S... With all due respect to your Mom, I think her perception is not matching up with the current reality (something I have to battle with my own Mom and her dated perceptions of Cleveland, as well).

On a serious note: this episode (CVSR ordering no discussion of the downtown connection; then, suddenly, the CEO's retirement), disturbingly echoes the Ron Tober experience: GM executes the 1st rail extension in 28 years; draws up plans for rapid & commuter rail extension, which the RTA board is against and, then, Tober is sent packing).... Obviously, I don't know the exact reasons for Steve Wait's retirement, other than the fact that he was 59. But CVSR's stubbornness regarding the downtown issue sounds all-too retrogressive when it comes to rail in the Cleveland area... Well, at least Akron Metro is more progressive than we Clevelanders with their purchase, extension of service south the Canton and their recent plans for DMU commuter service on lines in and around Akron. Maybe Akron's aggressive progressiveness will shame officials in Akron's stubborn big brother to the North.

Nice to hear, Jam40Jeff. We went down to the casino last night on the Green Line, and had a great experience at the casino (both the casino and downtown, in general, were packed. It was a carnival environment -- my SO stated it seemed like Times Sq. Seems, too, that RTA has been on its best behavior since the opening on Monday. We noticed, going in, that the driver announced "last trains" for all the lines and all 4 destinations. I also noted a color-coded sign noting each line's last train... The only downer was that we couldn't stay LONGER because of the early-to-bed service. Jerry/JetDog, I really think RTA should really think about all night, weekend service. Hourly trains on each the Green and Blue and half-hourly (or at worst, hourly) on the Red Line makes sense. (probably, if you did the DC Metro weekend schedule -- 3 am on all train lines), would probably fill the bill, if you start service at 4:30-5a).... RTA really needs to do this. As Dan Gilbert noted, the casino is a "game changer" for downtown Cleveland. The Horseshoe is open 24/7. Although there will be some crowd drop off, it's still going to draw lots of people to Public Square where all the trains go... The indoor rail connection (the only such casino connection in the nation, according to RTA's Mary McMahon, during a Channel 3 interview). This means that, during the winter, the Rapid could be an even more significant player in the transport of casino goers, esp given all the talk of parking issues.... I hope RTA doesn't decline such service based on nickels and dimes.

What's with all the weeds in front of the outdoor dining plaza at University East (@ Euclid & Mayflield)? UCI's information office is in that plaza. Looks really tacky.

I'm sure they wouldn't, but there's no capital or operating money available and thus no board interest in it. Steve Wait began pushing for it last year and hired me to do the community outreach, but the board told him to stop it which also meant I could no longer continue either. Damn, then maybe we should find out how to fire the Board. :evil:

^^ that's a ton of work... Also, what about the Red, Blue & Green Line eastern approach, Huron subway tunnels into Tower City built in 1929-30. They are badly deteriorated, to the point where the structural steel imbedded in the concrete is partially exposed... Shouldn't this concrete be built up/sealed at some point? Doesn't look too safe.

... but will he push for expansion into downtown Cleveland? I'm sure, with all the casino craziness (and concomitant parking headaches) in Cleveland, Akron-Cantonians wouldn't mind such a convenience.

Yes and she said she would go to Erie before here because she prefers mechanical ones hopefully this won't be the vast majority. Though she did said it was a nice casino just crowded...wish I was old enough :-( Im afraid to ask, but what the hell! How old are you? Why are you afraid to ask? And I'm 19 Someone noted that Cavs' Rookie-of-the-Year, Kyrie Irving is also not old enough to enter the casino -- he turned 20, Mar. 23rd.

WKNR Sports Radio just broadcast 24-hours, non-stop, from the Horseshoe. On the Rizzo/Goldhammer show, some official told them that downtown hotels were booked solid, as in 100% capacity, and that there were no openings at the Ritz for several months. Can anyone verify this?

That's what I thought. I know Wolstein's stated what he wants and plans for in Phase II, but...

That vacant land surrounding Circle East would be a great place for a new Red Line/Lakeview station. With the E. 120 station moving SW to Mayfield, there will be a large 1+mile gap between this station and Superior. More importantly for E. Cleve, however, is the fact that this former factory/vacant land would be prime TOD land that could greatly boost EC's fortunes... more, later, on the mass transit/RTA thread.

cleveland.com has a site map of Phases 1 & 2: http://media.cleveland.com/business_impact/photo/13cgflatsjpg-163b32475325c6bc.jpg I'm not sure if we have any definitive confirmations that every building shown on the map is getting built out in Phase 2 ... This might be a Phase 2a and 2b situation. Comparing the site map to the rendering you posted above, it looks like very little has changed in the way of building footprints, although there are some changes in use, and who knows if the heights, etc. will remain the same. In looking at the site plan and your renderings, it looks like the following buildings are not part of Phase 1 or Phase 2, presumably a third or fourth phase :) : - Two residential towers (with ground-level retail) along the riverfront (End of Phase 2, shown as greenspace and if I'm looking correctly, a restaurant/entertainment space. - Again, if I'm looking at it correctly, it looks like what was proposed for "residences over galleries and boutiques" is now sited for restaurant/entertainment and a parking garage to be done at the end of Phase 2. - One-third of a residential block with courtyard in the middle. Unclear what this missing third would be at the end of Phase 2. The other two-thirds are still to be residential over retail and parking. - Residences over neighborhood retail and 10-screen cinema (it looks like this was supposed to be the hotel site and where the hotel is going was to be residential?). Surface lot at the end of Phase 2. - 27,000 sq. ft. gourmet market. Surface lot at the end of Phase 2. - Second office complex, what was proposed at the Eaton headquarters. Not part of the FEB project at all, so remains undeveloped at end of Phase 2. So a lot of development to still do if it's to look like what was initially proposed. BUT ... We do end Phase 2 with 18 stories of offices over structured parking, a 150-room hotel and several street-level restaurants, 140 apartments over structured parking and riverside retail, plus what looks to be 6 stand-alone entertainment venues/restaurants/other (a couple stand-alones are unlabeled but are listed as being part of Phase 2). So, honestly, if Phase 2 goes as planned, they'll have accomplished a LOT. My concerns are not about how much they're getting done - This seems like a very reasonable amount of in-fill - My concerns are how spread out these developments are. This would be a very impressive amount of in-fill if it was all adjacent to each other, but as is, the apartments are separated from the office and hotel by a wide swath of surface parking (and then the Waterfront line). The stand-alone buildings are all separated from each other by 100 to 200 feet of greenspace, with a couple also separated visually by the Detroit Superior Bridge overhead. Doing good work, and I like the look of it so far ... Just wish they were marshaling their 23-acre site a little more effectively. I wish Phase 2 was developing the parcel adjacent to the hotel, incorporating as many of the restaurants/entertainment venues/retail into the ground floor and leave the "beach" that was proposed along the riverfront until you're ready for more residential in-fill in Phase 3. Once you've finished all your big buildings and built up a bit of an urban grid, THEN explore stand-alone buildings if needed :) So, at this moment, Phase II is still an "if"?

Tonight, between 8 and 9:15p, we drove down to check out the scene. Of course, the lines were still at the Horseshoe, but apparently, not nearly as long. We were stuck in traffic several times (mind you, this was a Tuesday night in downtown Cleveland) There was a traffic cop at Ontario PS and Ontario-Prospect... People were congregating on the SW quadrant of PS waiting for the follow-up light show on the Higbee building. There were Chicago/D.C.-type crowds everywhere w/in 4 blocks of the casino -- and the bars and restaurants everywhere were full -- from E. 4th to the WHD; packed in many cases. The crowds started tailing off by the time we hit E. 9th, eastbound, although there was some separate buzz at PHS ... theatre night.

The casino is a new toy right now. I've read that other cities with downtown casinos -- Pittsburgh, Detroit -- say that the crowds drop down to working levels in 3-6 months. I expect, though, that there will be a permanement buzz around Horseshoe -- not the currently lines, but a significant buzz; a 24-hour buzz that, obviously, even the old Higbee's Co. didn't have. As for WHD and E. 4th being "dead", I seriously doubt the casino is sucking people from those areas. Those areas, esp WHD, still have an ebb 'n flow that's still driven by such things as dinner hour, warm weather, Cavs/Indians games and, of course, Friday and Saturday nights -- unfortunately, even though downtown is much better than in recent years, we're still not the pulsating 24/7 downtown we all want -- not yet, anyway. ... I see the casino as attracting its own crowd with many new-opportunity patrons: those who otherwise would not come downtown, but for the casino. Some of those will flake off and go to existing restaurants and entertainment, but I suspect, many will be one-and-done, casino-focused visitors... Hope I'm wrong.

Sure hope MRN can secure Phase II financing before phase I is complete. The gap between the south pavilion and E. 115 is quite large and, as much as I like the buildings going up, still gives the area an unfinished look. ... I understand the criticism of the low slung nature of Phase 1, but I do like the drama, driving westbound, of Commodore Place, to a lesser extent, University East rising up in the background to the north and south, respectively...

You just proved that Cleveland has a very good transit network... but it's always good to map out your route and have back-up plans (and schedules), as you did.

HUH? There are TWO hotels attached to the Casino now. Or are you asking if a hotel will be attached to Phase II of the Casino? Actually a few says ago, Gilbert mentioned that another hotel (presumably brand new) maybe coming related to Phase II... Not sure where, though.