clvlndr

I think KJP's assertion is correct: you've got to crawl before you can walk. As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong), no currently planned HSR serves an area not that doesn't have any Amtrak rail service (so call "Thruway" buses don't count). Other states have what Ohioans are calling "slow trains" and are looking to upgrade. I can't see the Feds having any interest or desire to build a 3-C HSR demonstration project, it this State is so backwards, so Byzantine as to reject a rare, flat out gift grant to build a worthwhile "starter" line. OK, forget Democrat or Republican at this point. Whoever is successful in killing 3-C, if they be successful (and pray they aren't), will send this send this State in to darker ages beyond what it's already in... and like I said earlier, if that doomsday scenario happens, I just hope the Feds won't give up on enhancing Cleveland's connections w/ the rest of the Northeast and Midwest.

My point is, though, Michigan is paying for some of its Amtrak service ... still more than Ohio. Nevertheless, one reason why there is no Cs, now, and Republicans are challenging the $400M stimulus to get it started, I'm sure, is the uncomfortable cultural factor. That is, the erstwhile schism between upstate and downstate Ohio. My buddy who teaches at OSU tells me he can't count how many times he's heard down in C-Bus (aside from the idea Repubs want to crib-death (new verb) this Strickland-Dem baby), is the comment: why the hell would I take a train to Cleeeeeevland!!?? We know this is a terribly divided state with a lot of hatred between downstate and upstate. And we Clevelanders know, also, that Cleveland relates more to Pittsburgh, Detroit and Chicago -- culturally, travelwise, even education-wise (hell, more grads in my Shaker HS class went to U-M than OSU; Notre Dame, nearly as much). Michigan, for all its obvious faults, tends to pull together more than Ohio. Cleveland probably already would have some subsidized Amtrak service to Pittsburgh or Chicago, but you think for a minute Columbus would pay for it? Fat chance. If Republicans are successful in killing this rarest of gifts from Washington for public transit/transportation, any talk of statewide high-speed rail will likely be dead forever; at least, for the foreseeable future. And the wedge between North and South in this state will grow even wider. ... and All Aboard Ohio would, then, no doubt focus on those other Cleveland based routes, despite the fact Washington probably looks at Ohio (and will look at it even moreso if 3C is defeated) as one large dysfunctional state and it would be very hard to pry any more train funds for any Ohio routes... so the best Cleveland could hope to be is a stronger Chicago satellite a la Detroit, St. Louis and Milwaukee... Obviously, the stakes are enormous.

I'm glad someone else asked the Q about those bridges. The Blue/Green Lines were closed off peak for about 2 weeks last spring for repairs and then we've had those 2 bridge slow zones ever since. It sure would be nice to know when RTA plans to fix or replace these bridges. They really slow down the trip.

Civvik, can you explain why northern neighbor Michigan $upports and is upgrading Amtrak lines through its State? Is not Michigan more car oriented, spread out and less densely populated than Ohio? ... I think the answer is "yes" to all 3. On top of that, none of Michigan cities, most notably its largest metro area, Detroit, which is bigger by far than any Ohio metro area, lacks the "complentary infrastructure" you speak of.... You're really reaching, Dude (assuming you're a dude). The mentality of people such as yourself totally befuddles me and supports the metaphor that Ohio is an "island" when it comes to passenger rail -- physically and mentally.

Not surprising for the transit system which, until a year ago, lost (probably) 10s of thousands of dollars because of poor fare collecting techniques... Wait, what do I mean by a year ago, ... UOers, among others, are reporting many, many Red Line fare cheaters in light of the seeming total lack of roving RTA Transit Police enforcement under the new POP fare system.

The overall nature of the declines makes me think once again: the Greater Cleveland economy. Maybe the Circulator cuts had some effect, but I'd doubt this much... The Red Line has had service shutdowns as well as the off-peak reduction from 15 to 20 min intervals since the beginning of Puritas station construction... Still, these numbers seem more extreme than what these cuts would cause... It still seems like: fewer jobs, fewer people living in neighborhoods (w/ the killer foreclosures) = fewer people traveling within the County. Chance are, you'd probably find fewer auto trips (if we could accurately measure such a thing) within the County during the work week.

Any possible explanations besides the easy one: the County's economy, esp its core city, where most riders are, sucks?

Amen 327.

^The downtown-to-Oakland corridor in Pittsburgh is very similar to the Euclid corridor in Cleveland... Let's see whether Pittsburgh, like Cleveland, punks out and goes cheap with BRT or does the right thing and extends light rail thru the corridor... indicators? They already have downtown subways (we don't), they're extending it under the river to extend to, w/in a decade or less, extend to their airport, 18 miles away... And their transit chief and local leaders are all generally on board with extending rail... heaven forbid that would ever happen in uber-progressive Cleveland... in C-Town, similar leaders (and the Transit Chief) are on board for ... building a roadway, a freeway connector if you will, to connect its cultural area. Hmmmm.

Why attack a friend of rail like Daily Kos? It was obviously a satirical piece (using terms like "Ohiobamans")... As for inaccuracies, help me out. As for attacks on Republicans, well, don't they deserve to be attacked? Republican John Kasich who's come out of the box in the gov's race with the usual Republican BIG LIE about the flexibility to use the rail stimulus money for other things. Republicans, as usual, are taking something that could be positive and progressive for this state and are making it controversial; it's par for the course for them and their stranglehold on power, esp downstate, has kept this state in the dark ages... I'm sorry KJP, I'll take Daily Kos over the Enquirer or any Republican-leaning publication. If we're going to publicly campaign for this critical project, which Republicans are doing everything they can to kill -- along w/ more and more of the local media behind them -- we have to discern who are our friends and who is the enemy.

I like Brookline, esp its commercial areas (like Coolidge Corner), and the number of condos and apt complexes. But I don't think tearing down the single family homes and trying to spread density along Van Aken is the way to go. We need to build out and maximize the the retail districts we have, which is what Shaker is attempting to do. They did tear down those dingy, 1-story apts btw Lee and Avalon and, of course, built Avalon station -- where realtors there are telling people that once their occupancy rate reaches a certain level -- a level they claim are closing in on -- they will build a twin building on the other side of the boulevard off Van Aken. I do understand that Cleveland has traditionally been a house city and expecting the city to suddenly convert to a mid-to-high rise city overnight, may be asking too much esp, as KJP notes, in a shrinking population market. The attached, townhouse style (a la Eco City) houses or small, low/medium risers, like Fries & Schule and Larchmere Lofts, may be what we need right now in the neighborhoods. Very few significant mid-rise buildings have been built outside of downtown (and even there, not that many)... I do think St. Luke's Pointe was anything but a TOD: it's just a suburban-like, cul-de-sac-y area shoved in next to a poor, struggling, high-crime area, and it, obviously, hasn't generated much excitement. it's interesting that the relocated Harvey Rice elementary school has been built nearly right up on top of the E. 116 Rapid stop -- this is where St. Luke's point should have started.

Despite the generally level-headed UO downstaters, that part of the State has more than share of conservative types; so its not surprising that the Akron and Cleveland editorials have been more supportive than Cincy and C-Bus... oh yeah, we'll forget about Tom Suddes...

Outstanding editorial. The smartest I've seen on the subject, to date.

You're right, willyboy, Avalon's not that expensive. They're just hurt for the same reason so much quality RE in Shaker is hurt: RE taxes thru the roof. Why? Because the Rapid is old and the city built out before auto/mall/suburban office age of the 60s/70s. Unlike neighbor Beachwood, which was largely farmland until the 60s, went on to develop office parks to underwrite the low RE taxes. Shaker, meanwhile, only has the sliver of land around Tower East and UH (the old OfficeMax), plus some area around Chagrin, Lee Avalon -- nothing compared to Beechwood or Mayfield Hts. 327, I agree the Red Line is stronger for TOD development. It's a faster, grade-seperated route that can always market the quick, 1-seat ride to Hopkins... Actually, the new E. Cleve mayor is talking about commercial redevelopment around its 2 Red Line stations... I also agree, it's not all the lack of markets so much as it is the lack of leadership, here. EcoCity Cleveland really lobbied hard for, not only the Eco Village as TOD, but initially for the rebuild of the ratty W. 65th Rapid, which RTA had slated to close. Ron Tober used the lure of a then-unbuilt underground walkway to the Rapid to convince private/public leaders to build the 2 stadiums on the rather tight Gateway footprint -- no, not tradition TOD, but certainly development that benefits strongly from rail transit including it's very being, of course... Problem is, EcoCity was a small, green nonprofit (w/ limited pull amongst the giant, sloth-like banking/power-broker establishment here), and Ron Tober was chased out of town because of his 'extravagant' rail proposals; the bulk being commuter rail... When your car-oriented leadership is constantly screaming that roads (a la Opportunity Corridor) are the way and transit is just a useless draw on the limited public treasure chest, well sure, transit can't work... again, the exact parallel is the Republican melodrama about the relative chump change we're getting from the Feds to start a passenger rail system that, once the public sees and experiences, is likely to grow -- in service and in speed... but until it happens, like with TOD, the "it can't happen here" Cleveland/Ohio mindset simply has to change. ... and to KJP and others, ... Chicago, a cold-weather, Industrial Age city like Cleveland and Detroit, didn't just happen out of thin air... it created the strong markets (in housing, business and transit) because of a mega, well-coordinated can-do attitude that Cleveland can't even whiff... Closer to home (size wise, anyway, just a diff country), Toronto was a stagnant, stodgy, parochial town, too, until...

Actually, Ferrari, Shaker's been working to try and develop TOD development for nearly 2 decades; some successful, others, like the 20-year-old strip mall Shaker Towne Center at Chagrin-Lee-Avalon, an absolute flop. It's hard; Shaker's an old burb that's been built up along the Rapid. The only open space for TOD along the Rapid in Shaker, is the open field in the Shaker Blvd median the 1 mile btw Warrensville and Green, and nobody wants to touch that restful, bucolic area in the midst of a busy suburban region... The 3 major pockets of high-rises along Van Aken -- Shaker Sq., the Lee Rd area, and Lynnfield-Farnsleigh, were all set asides by the Vans in the 20s, and developed with mid-rise apt blocks slowly over the decades into the early 60s. I believe the optimal development is Northfield-Harvard-Highlands. The area's still only lightly built up; the right of way is there, and a growing Tri-C campus is there... But people seem to think that, since the big bad Jacobs' thumbed their noses at the Blue Line, the idea is dead forever. At least the RTA Alternative Summary done last month keeps the Highlands route as a Blue Line possibility. But I still stand by the Randall Mall expansion. Why not try and create growth and optimism in a devastated economic area? Our whole region is hurting, generally, but it's flat out stupid to throw away/ignore an area just because it's not popular, esp when when the Blue Line is right there and is being extended to a media right-of-way at the top of the corridor.

KJP got there 1st; what are all the apts along Van Aken? The Van Sweringens planned for a mainly single-home community with set asides for high-density growth. I don't get your point. There hasn't been much other growth along the Blue Line in a half century mainly because the Blue Line hasn't been extended ... I believe, since the Depression. Shaker Heights and the Cleveland areas around the Blue Line, beyond Woodhill, at least, are pretty much built out... how do you expect growth to occur when the rail lines themselves are not being expanded? Other cities expand their transit lines to spur growth as well as connect built-up areas and focus higher density growth there. Look at the continued growth of the oldest subway in the nation: Boston; it's still growing. Yeah, the Red Line wasn't the greatest route for a number of reasons, principally being along a windy freight line that, often, is away from population centers. Along the way, of course, we let historical knot-head Al Porter kill a downtown subway that would have spurred growth; so, now, we're so cynical about rail, we're skeptical about even expanding it beyond a few hundred feet, ... like the Blue Line... It's a sign of our mentality in Cleveland and Ohio that the 2 mile, $60M Waterfront Line, extended to what should be our hottest growth area -- yeah, the waterfront thing that sizzles in most cities -- is still controversial... I'm glad the Flats East Bank project, exactly the type of tight, TOD that should bring a lot more passengers and spur more growth, is finally coming out of the ground ... a mere 14+ years after the WFL openend... That the piddling $400M Stimulus grant for 3-C Amtrak is similarly generating such angst locally (Ohio-wise, that is) should tell you something about our collective mindset here ... oh yeah, that's another thread...

The Blue Sign possible fund diversion is but one aspect. I have stated, and the PD agrees, that Ohio law should be changed to allow state gas tax $ to be used for mass transit operating funds; and maybe include intercity rail systems like 3-C. Sure, the ODOT/highway lobby jumps up 'n down for proposals like funding anything even remotely smelling like transit... On the flip side, I sure wonder how many BILLIONS have been diverted from other potential urban-building programs like mass transit, to feed that beast/sacred cow that is ODOT road-building/maintenance. To even raise, publicly, a peep about diverting 1 red cent from ODOT is nearly tantamount to committing a criminal act in this State.

Yes, but you know conservative, anti-rail advocates are going to grasp onto anything to make their case, even if the "evidence" is either misleading or not even true... The Big Lie concept is predicated on the idea that, if you keep bellowing it long and loud enough, even honest folks w/o an agenda will believe it... hell, we even see some pro-rail folks who give it too much credence -- that's how effective, slick and skillful the rail-killers are.

First off, extension of the Blue Line up Chagrin is a non-starter. It's an already built up area whereby the 1st mile is, on one side, a huge cemetery and public golf course -- neither would be likely relocated b/c of rail. Beyond that, you have the heavily built-up sprawling Beachwood office/retail development. And while a median could be built in Chagrin, it already exists along Northfield. I disagree w/ X that redevelopment shouldn't be strongly considered. North Randall and the portion of Warrensville Hts near NR is economically devastated, with either empty standing buildings (Randall Mall, the Holiday Inn @ Emery, to name a few) or vacant land that contained large buildings; ie: the huge lot where big-box Zayre's used to be... The concept of rapid transit is to both create density while simultaneously move people to/from the density that's created... Witness the high-density expansion of cities like New York and Chicago in the late 19th/early 20th Centuries follwing development and expansion of their elevated and subway systems... More recently, look at D.C. in in-city nabes like U-Street -- bombed out and desolate after late 60s rioting until the late 80s, now among D.C's hottest/trendiest areas primarily spawned by extension of the Green Line Metro thru the neighborhood. The old burned-out shell/now rehabbed rowhomes have been supplemented by a number of upscale mid-to-high rises in the U St. area. North Randall/Warr Hts. is an opportunity for an extreme urban makeover creating high-density TOD development. The land and opportunity is there, esp with the recent closure of Randall Mall, which sits on a gigantic parcell which also adjoins a I-480 freeway ramp (which was the original basis for locating the Mall there). Credit Shaker Heights for having the vision and foresight to get the ball rolling by moving forward to recreate the Chagrin/Northfield/Warr/V.Aken intersection into TOD w/ the Blue Line as its centerpiece. Keep in mind, the area around this intersection, while sprawling and dysfunctional from a modern transit/density construct, is currently far more economically viable than anything in North Randall and, yet, Shaker still has opted to move forward w/ the TOD makeover.

Here's RTA's Initial Screening of Alternative routes and modes for a Blue line extension. For once, JoeC's transit agency appears to be out front of a projected rail expansion -- amazing. Granted, Shaker Heights sort forced RTA's w/ it's TOD/intersection reconfig, but... Expanding the Blue Line to Randall Mall's site, makes perfect sense... and I'm glad RTA's presentation at least still notes a possible extension to Chagrin Highlands... I hope we don't give up on such a worthwhile rail expansion. http://www.shakeronline.com/Media/PDFs/Uploader/1272010135929Track_1_Presentation_1-21-10.pdf

I really wish it wasn't political... One of the biggest conservatives in the nation; oft called the Father of modern conservatism, the late Paul Weyrich, was also one of America's biggest transit/train advocates; even founded a pro-transit website... He wrote several position papers and articles arguing transit actually helps a free market economy, not hurts it... that quality transit in our big cities helps auto traffic flow (obviously w/ less cars on roads) and people movement past crowded roads in ways that promote business productivity. He once cited the Texas A & M University study that showed how much business productivity was hampered and lost becasue of the amount of time motorists, esp single-passenger drivers, are stuck behind the wheel in traffic... Weyrich was totally frustrated by his fellow conservatives on this issue... ... and yet, regardless of who Weyrich was or how logical his arguments were, you still got the same old tired rantings of his bretheren: transit is socialist/communist; it denies the individual his freedom to drive the biggest, fatest gas guzzler of his choice, and to hell with everyone else... btw, such mindless idealogues are the same ones who argue against the need for cities at all. Every man and woman (usual man for them) for himself... It's parallel to passenger rail like 3-C. Let's gin up the Big Lie and make it seem like this is the most God-awful public waste that has come along... The fact this one, realatively modest single train line is so controversial is depressing, in itself, to every one of use who considers him/herself a progressive. It just sours me on Ohio just that much more.

Answer: because it's Ohio. We have a way in this State of making progress seem wasteful and evil, while lethargy and the status quo is somehow admirable. And when you bring up success stories elsewhere, Ohioans get very insular and defensive; being the outcast, lone wolf fosters a sense of pride for too many people here... ... and to Brutus___ Buckeye, I found most of your answers patently ridiculous. For one, roads are not status quo here, they keep expanding (like the so-called Opportunity Corridor and the Parma Freeway, built around a decade ago). Both projects roughly equally and even surpassing the cost to build the entire 3-C project, although both are local roads of about 3 miles each (and both in a shrnking, poor city with a significant amount of zero-car families -- ya really wanna debate wasteful public spending, do ya? ... And Brutus, it seems like you and your conservative viewpoint are trying to paint a black vs. white viewpoint. Who among the pro-3-C faction advocated total non-car use, or a preference that roads disappear and everybody ride the trains?

I have to disagree, 327, although I understand your viewpoint. Detroit is as sprawling and dyfunctional as any metro area w/ zero rail transit, and yet their slow (slower than 3-C) line to Chicago thru logically town Ann Arbor and a bunch of small towns in Michigan and Indiana is very successful and is ticketed to be upgraded. Also, there are a bunch of myths/untruths some have raised: 'I'll use my car from Cleveland to Cincy." Q- why are so many people talking about riding the whole length of the line when there are many interim trips from Cleve and Cincy to Columbus; the state capital in the center of the state but also the site of 55,000-student OSU. (and college students tend to be low-percentage car owners and high-percentage transit/train users. What about commuter-type trips from Dayton to Cincy or Columbus? Q- Why do naysayers always equate driving to riding a train, where stress is lower and relaxation is higher? Q- 327, why make the chicken and egg argument. Why not say 3-C's can encourage mass/rail transit in our big cities rather than saying the trains won't be successful because of underdeveloped local transit? And even w/o any rail building, this should, at the very least, help light the fire under state pols to increase operating funding for our local mass transit systems... Q- Why not focus on the TOD/focused development potential of 3-Cs over the sprawl created by the existing all freeway system? This should be even MORE of an issue in a struggling-financially state like Ohio? Q- why are people so hyper-focused on the$400M + operating costs (yearly) for the trains, when maintaining our roads, even the parallel I-71 is so much more? Just some Q's for thought...

That's a common ploy from Republicans. We're seeing the same played out on the national level... Repubs like, say, Susan Collins or Olympia Snowe in their more moderate/liberal districts attempt to 'sound' reasonable, but then turn around and vote in lockstep with the hard right obstructionists. Hell, we've got Voinovich who runs a similar scam here in Ohio... If these guys, like Patton or Harris and other GOPers like them really do come out and vote for 3-C after reasonably being presented the facts, I will happily eat my words... but knowing the current gutless, hypocritical, reactionary Republican party that now exists, ... I'm not holding my breath. I don't think that's true at the state level. Republicans are generally against new spending, but within their own state they view even pork barrel projects as good for the local economy and increasing their chances of being re-elected. On the national level, the problem is that we've got a President and majority from the same party, which typically translates into staunch opposition on every issue by the minority party, since passing things that might be successful will make it more difficult for them to increase their power base. We've seen this play out on both sides of the isle and it's really a sad state of affairs. All of that said, I really hope Harris and Carey don't mount any opposition to this. I sure hope you're right. While I want the money spent as wisely as possible, we can't sit back and allow ideologues to kill this most worthwhile program based on skewed, ignorant assessments, like those espoused in the Suddes piece... I know it's local/state vs. national, but we're in an era of loud shouting ignorance w/ the facts be damned... Look at the absurd Tea Bagger movement and the foolishness regarding the Universal Healthcare debate... And as for partisan politics, you can't ignore the fact that, more often than not, Republicans have been the anti-transit, passenger-rail party. The examples are overwhelming... Cincinnatians should be zipping along on their light rail, today, but for backwards, hard-lobbying Republicans... The State of Ohio simply can't let Republicans to kill off this project. That means "we", as I've already contacted my rep(s) in strong support of 3-C, and will continue to do so.

That's a common ploy from Republicans. We're seeing the same played out on the national level... Repubs like, say, Susan Collins or Olympia Snowe in their more moderate/liberal districts attempt to 'sound' reasonable, but then turn around and vote in lockstep with the hard right obstructionists. Hell, we've got Voinovich who runs a similar scam here in Ohio... If these guys, like Patton or Harris and other GOPers like them really do come out and vote for 3-C after reasonably being presented the facts, I will happily eat my words... but knowing the current gutless, hypocritical, reactionary Republican party that now exists, ... I'm not holding my breath.