clvlndr

General rule of thumb: it's preferable to have conv. centers near the existing retail/entertainment/restaurant infrastructure because they, don't in themselves, attract them ... mainly due to the uneven and cyclical nature of these big, blocky boxes of rooms, a large percentage of which are empty a large percentage of the year. It's the convention hotel, attached, which does attract such infrastructure because they are constantly busy with travelers in addition to convention and entertainment activity. That's why it's unthinkable for anyone to suggest Cleveland not include a large, high quality convention-style hotel – which we’re currently lacking. It’s why, Straphanger, the D.C. neighborhood, while better with the 6-year old conv. Center, is nowhere near thriving. It’s directly on the Metro Line but several blocks away from hotels and restaurants. It’s not downtown like ours would be. And actually, contrary to MTS’ comment, Philadelphia’s area around their large and currently greatly expanding Conv. Center, was not always the thriving, bustling area it is now – it was, even as recently as a 15 years ago, in a rundown part of downtown Philly – an area much like our pre-Gateway Prospect corridor – and which even today, has some hony-tonk-ness about it (a few cheap jewelry and clothing shops and even a peep show here ‘n there). But Philly made the convention center the core of several new connected hotels, a rehabbed existing Reading terminal market, an underground commuter rail terminal connected to a Tower City-ish new (in the 80s) shopping mall, and a bevy of new restaurants – in addition to being next to one of the nation’s best Chinatowns (which has always been leery of the PA Convention Center much the way the Warehouse District in Cleveland has been of a new cc being built there: WHD sees a cc as hampering its growth)…. I emphasize the Philly HOTELS around the convention center, at least 8 that I can think of off hand, with the linchpin being the 1,200-room Marriott on Market Street (God, even if we had one half that size -- our largest, room-wise, is still Renaissance with 492 rooms – would be a giant leap forward for this town). In short, if we REALLY want to make the MMPI cc successful, no matter where on the Mall it ultimately ends up, where going to get away from our typical Cleveland one-at-a-time, development-on-an-island mentality. (exhibit A: the Rock Hall and GL Science Ctr)… A better example here is Gateway, where there has been more of a comprehensive neighborhood development approach, including some hotels, even though its been a little slow in developing – but now is coming along nicely.

PH/MH was the most important part of MY getting behind the Mall proposal; not theirs.

I was for the Tower City location, but have gone along with building on the current center, just to: a) get the thing downtown, somewhere, and b) to get the damn thing moving. I thought the most important aspect/argument for the current location was/is rejuvenation of Public Hall, but MMPI wants that gone under the current County budget limitations (unless, as noted, its tactic to get the St. Clair/Ontario holdouts to come down in asking price). Of course, I also think that at any location, a major hotel should be key as well as, at the current site, direct access to the new multi-modal North Coast Train (as in 3-C corridor) station. But losing Public Hall is a deal-breaker to me. I could kinda sorta, with a big stretch go along with MTS's impassioned argument that the planned MMPI location at St. Clair and Ontario was kinda-sorta accessible (in nice weather, of course) to downtown sites. But even the strongest of advocates for rebuilding the current site admit that positioning the main, above-ground MMPI center at the end of Mall C, sandwitched btw civic-use City Hall and the Courthouse (and blocking the lake view) is much more isolated from downtown attractions. And then we have our gigantic, beautiful Public Auditorium once again an empty white elephant on this MMPI faced/blocked Mall C... with no promise of hotels or train station access... seems 1 step forward, 3 steps backwards. BTW, MTS, I'm pretty certain Icecream meant the main, above-groound signature MMPI portion of the cc (as being sandwitched btween to public buildings at the ned of the Mall C), not the whole cc.

I think it's seriously time this state amend the law banning gas tax revenues from being spent for non-road improvement, notably mass transit... Time to shoot that old conservative sacred cow. I'm sure ODOT would fight this tooth 'n nail; I say: bring it on!... Drivers have got to get out of the outdated mentality that transit has no affect on them: dummy, the more people ride the buses or rails, the freer the roads are! Only a few farmer Bob's out in the sticks would be unaffected. I'm sure over a huge majority of Ohioans live in metro areas -- areas where some form of transit exists; and most of those in one of the 3-Cs, where only Cleveland has true mass transit (but really needs to expand it), while the other C's are furiously trying develop mass transit. Yeah, I know capital costs have a fed match, and we're talking operating expenses, but somehow, someway, this auto-happy state has to get into the wallets of those car-wedded people, many of whom are single-passenger commuters with SUVs or the equivalent guzzlers... This state is struggling, esp the old industrial centers in the north. Those who fit the last profile I painted, are well off enough and can afford to bear more of a burden. Change the law and allow some of that money to fund our important transit operations.

Yeah, I'd read something years ago that Porter/the comishes were carrying the water for Higbee's/May's ... of course, with a little something in thier pockets when they walked away.

OK, great that a grass-roots, transportation advocacy group is reaching Governor Amtrak, but what about the leadership of the place that's hurt? What is Mayor Jackson saying? Maybe I'm missing it, but I haven't seen one word from about Ohio local transit funding. Yes, MMPI and casino is important, but transit affects a large cross-section of Clevelanders, esp the low and moderate income earners. Mayor Jackson's from Central/Kinsman, one of the poorest income tracks in the state. Residents there are getting rocked by these RTA cuts. Put aside, for a moment, the Lakewood folks, who vociferously defended their Circulators. What are the County Commissioners saying? These are the people who should be pounding Columbus about this.

No exaggeration, Albert S. Porter is singularly THE most destructive person in Cleveland history. The subway destruction plus freeway agenda has created negative city trends that have not been reversed for Cleveland.

Absolutely. I was the one who suggested to Jerry Masek that POP be extended to the Blue/Green division -- since the merger of CTS and the old Shaker Rapid, the Red Line's pay at the station (or at the train door) vs. Shaker's historic "pay enter, east bound" "pay, leave, westbound" has been a confusing mess to passegners trying to use both systems which, obviously, has been more in play since the opening of the airport leg in 1968. (the disparate systems really reflect the broken, stratified Cleveland mentality: feeling was: West Siders and East siders go downtown, go to work, and go home; ditto Shaker/Heights riders -- so what's the need for a unified rail system?) Of course, many East Siders hold to the maxim that the Airport is the only thing worth going to on the West side, while some West Siders still brag how many years, decades it's been since they've been downtown -- sick. Jerry responded with the general RTA response: money. He said because the Blue & Green lines have so many more stops, most with much lighter usage than the avg Red Line station, Blue/Green POP just wouldn't be cost effective. I pointed out that Baltimore's Light Rail uses POP even though they have 33 LRT stations, versus 33 here (Blue, Green and WFL) – 3 of which are shared with the Red Line where ticket vending machines are already available…. Jerry said RTA would look into Baltimore, and I believe him… Once again, this seems like RTA being penny wise and pound foolish.

If RTA did standardize its fleet with high-low platform cars, it would have to extend POP to the entire system. It's confusing enough with the different payment systems on the different types of cars we have now.

What is the current FTA match for new rail construction? It's nice that Detroit has put together a coalition of biz folks to finance a 3.5 mile rail line, but I would find it difficult to see it happening here for the WFL loop given the heritage of squabbling here. Hey, maybe Big Dan could finance it himself since his casino would be one of the largest private stakeholders on the line.

Great observations, StrapHanger (sans those about the automatic station announcements, since the last ones I heard months ago were awful -- glad RTA updated them). I can't agree more about the fare machines, and you're right, they are way too low to the ground. I also can't imagine not having an attendant at the airport, at least during busy periods, to help people, esp given the higher than normal amount of non "regulars" who access the Red Line there... And again, why only 2 machines there. RTA has fumbled the ball, bigtime, even though the POP concept is a good one for Cleveland -- including mixing it with the Tower City automated faregates which, I think are needed.

Bingo! Er, didn't you just elaborately show us how Huron Rd tunnels already exist to connect into our already-existing (for 80 years!) underground (as in subway) downtown Rapid terminal? ... not to mention the fact that, angling NW from the Rapid terminal we have an already-existing Detroit-Superior Bridge subway (and extant W. 25 subway station) that brushes past that same Rapid Terminal, should we decide to go in that direction? So don't you think that, unlike the typical build-from-scratch Sunbelt town, the Feds would smile on us for expanding a subway that ties into what we already have?

Actually, I thought the voter-approved loop plan that Porter torpedoed was tunnels under Huron (connecting @ TC similar to what you're proposing), E.13 and Superior... Nevertheless, I understand your point. I thought Dual-Hub went off the deep end with an overkill Shaker/E.116/MLK spur... By the same token, I don't want us to timid and under-build a line that will have to be "fixed' years down the road (witness Dallas, that was too timid to build subways until, surprise, DART is such an expanding hit, they are NOW going to tunnel underdown because the current street/mall system can't handle the increased capacity. We're only talking a couple thousand feet and while, yes, it's expensive, the greater expense will be streets clogged with slow-moving streetcars, pedestrians (which we want) and a wall of auto traffic. I would have never believed we'd ever sniff a commuter train like the West Shore line, but now it's moving along towards probable fruition. Why? Because your group All Aboard Ohio got folks to buy-into the fact that this so call "gold standard" transit is best suited to handle this growing corridor... The same thought process should be applied to a WFL loop, esp in a downtown where there are a lot of exciting big-ticket projects going in simultaneously... As the saying goes: if there's a will, there's a way.

It's interesting that Grumpy's 13th Street proposal vs KJP''s 17th rekindles the old question: is rapid transit supposed to extend to and serve population density or create it? I tend toward Grumpy's 13th street idea because it could do both. It would be a mistake to brush past the most densely built up part of downtown: E. 9th/Euclid/Playhouse Sq. And if you go Huron to 13th to the Lake, you also serve gigantic Reserve Sq. and a few other large apts... But there is also a lot of "air" along 13th North of Chester -- lots of place to build... (note: btw Euclid and Chester, E.13th auto traffic would have to be eliminated on the narrow street if trains ran at grade....) I differ with KJP about developing 17th -- wasn't that what the WFL we have now about? A well built line that now, 12 years later, is only now seeing some TOD go up as in FEB? Also I'm kind of surprised KJP mentioning that people would "walk a few blocks" for transit.... Not in this town... We have the North Coast/E. 9th WFL stop 1.5 blocks from the huge Erieview office population, but none of them, hardly, use the WFL... Maybe they feel they're walking backwards to get to a stop when they're going toward Public Sq. and beyond... Also, in thinking about it more, I think if we go with either E.13 or 17th, we build as much subway as we can through crowded intersections... I tend more to mrnyc and away from KJP: I believe more in true rapid transit (as in grade separated) and less in street-clogging trolleys... Unfortunately (and I'm not finger-pointing at KJP), Cleveland's still got Bert Porter hangover -- 50 years after Porter rudely snatched away the subway loop voters approved, and now we perpetually believe it CAN'T happen here... never mind that we have a huge head start with an off-street subway central rapid terminal with an east-west totally grade separated approach, as well as the nifty Huron subway connection (and nearby Det-Superior Bridge deserted subway deck, (W.25) station and short tunnel... And never mind that similar size cities like Pittsburgh, Seattle, Baltimore, Atlanta and even little Buffalo have successfully tunneled -- and all reap much bigger passenger per/mile totals than Cleveland, as well... I say, do it right or don't do it at all.

Nice job, KJP; appreciate your incorporating an analyzing a loop per my suggested longer subway. There must be a project manager job for you at Parsons Brinckerhoff -- hey, maybe you could manage this project... If recall from my pre-Tower City, segregated station left-hand running (TC - E. 55) Shaker Rapid riding days, there was also an upper-level turnout track connection on the westbound Shaker track (the northern most track into the “mouth” of the station-area trackage) which, of course, today, though still extant and apparently signaled, is weed-covered and non-revenue. If so, even with all those TC pillars, Huron Road subway access to the current station possible though it would require a brief though awkward, wrong-way intersection/track share section (the overpass track that flies over the current westbound dip) mixing eastbound trains (out of TC) with Westbound (into TC) trains for the Blue/Green center stub track....a situation that could be doable since stub traffic would probably be greatly reduced -- maybe a few trains in rush hour only -- once thru loop routing started. Although on a much smaller scale than the Cincy construction outlay, I do believe that Cleveland, like Cincinnati, will someday capitalize on its major unused subway connection... Huron portal or my preferred one further East on Prospect (or beyond), I could learn to love this project either way...

What people consistently miss in this town, and what consistently holds this town back, is that more competition downtown serves to create more business. The more people see the more options, the more likely more of them will come down and partake ... and the better it will be for ALL the businesses; in this case, restaurants. It's the same, on another level, with hotels -- more conventions and other activities come here when there are more, and better quality, hotels -- esp the large, mega quality hotel that Cleveland currently lacks.... But too often, in Cleveland, every biz owner's so damn busy trying to protect his ass, they actually fight competition in fighting to keep the turf exclusively their own, or their own little clan's. And for too long, these owner's have our pols in their hip pocket and legislate this foolish fiefdom... is it any secret why people stayed the hell away from downtown in droves when there were only a few lone restaurants as opposed to now, when there are a bunch of them?.... Ditto retail, where sadly at the moment, downtown is no longer the popular foil/option to the malls, because choices are few.

If you are referring to the Harry Buffalo owner's comment: yeah, it was non-progressive, dumb and flies in the face of facts... As for hotels, there's plenty of room in the Tower City complex to build one like Detroit just opened nearly a decade after the Greektown casino opened: http://www.greektowncasino.com/HotelandVisitorInfo/index.html

I hope Buffalo activists can push planners into expanding the LRT, esp (from the south end) out to the airport (and possibly stopping and/re-energizing empty/crumbling Buffalo Central train station), along with the NW branch from near LaSalle out to the Tonawanda area, which has long been discussed and where an abandoned rail corridor exists.... Even in its small status, now, Buffalo's LRT is a major asset and well used, serving the wonderful Allentown area, among others.

Bless Betty Blair... she's a transit angel.

This Loop plan makes infinitely more sense than the old one -- beginning the loop at way out of the way E.34th area for a winding, indirect streetcar ride through the low-density (Beachwood-like) St. Luke's Quadrangle area -- where the only major trip generator is a much downsized Tri-C... The above plan is a straight attack connecting the highest density areas of downtown -- Tower City/Public Sq. Euclid/E. 9th-Gateway, Playhouse Sq. and CSU.... I really like using the extant Van Sweringen tunnels at Huron rather than building a costly grade-separated connection at E. 34th. My only quibble with the above plan is I'd rather extend the tunnel at least through the 5-point "New Center" intersection at Prospect/E. 9/Huron. I know the dreaded "S-word" (as in subway) sends chills up Clevelanders' backs, but to bring surface trains thru and already crazy intersection (which promises to get busier once all the planned development in the area is complete) just wouldn't make a lot of sense. On top of that, the mix of pedestrians and trains, esp in/around the open portal on Huron, could get really messy (and greatly hamper/slow service with some ped danger ta boot) on Cavs and Indians game days where, as you know, there are massive waves of people moving from the stadiums toward E.4th, Euclid and Public Square... Therefore, why not extend the subway portion a few extra thousand feet and (yes) build one subway station at the New Center intersection?... trains then could surface along the more lightly used Prospect Ave. section east of the intersection so that, then, they could connect with the planned look KJP outlined. ... and yes, such a subway does hold out the hope that someday, perhaps, the Health Line could be converted to LRT and directly serve Tower City with the underground connection... but that's a subject for another thread. This new Loop proposal should be seriously presented to RTA and the City Planning Commission; esp in light of the numerous exciting (and trip-generating) development that's being executed that would directly benefit from this loop.

I'm glad to see Dragonfly, and I like the upscale (sounding) nature of it. However, I miss City Buddah there, and the idea of creating a diversified retail/restaurant corridor on W. 25th, rather than the club-heavy districts we have. I, too, have noticed Bier Markt's evening evolution into a Flats-ish bar... I wish there was a Walgreen's in a revamped, more curb-friendly Market Plaza.... I do like the fact of the WSM, of course, and Dave's around the corner and Horizonal Books in the 'BS on 25th's' old location... it's getting there.

Can't argue with you... Actually, I thought I'd read RTA is moving ahead with the Brookpark Rapid station rebuild w/o the planned TOD, hoping that TOD happens later.

The rail/photo tour should at least be e-mailed to Positively Cleveland and other tourism sites -- people, most of whom, never set foot on transit and, hence, are incapable and/or disinterested in extolling its virtues to visitors. The photo tour visibly demonstrates just how much of Cleveland -- many of its hottest tourist areas, are directly reachable by rail.

Boston's always been perplexing to me. As this great photo set shows, I don't think there's a medium-sized core-city metro area that has more going for it in terms of history, architecture, culture, mass transit, density, excitement, education, etc, etc... but the Black-White race problems have always been somewhat off-putting, esp among the large group of working class, Irish-Catholic whites... But I've heard things are changing and the Harvard/MIT/BU (other collegiate-oriented crowd) is making Boston more diverse and open -- hey, they elected a Black guv and were one Obama's strongest of strongholds, and obviously, is the Kennedy birthplace/nurtureres (esp to the late, great Teddy) ... so Beantown can't be all bad... I guess. (I still hate that annoying NE accent