clvlndr

Wow, what an intelligent comment. :roll: cleveland.com disease must be spreading.

The site is not removed from downtown. A site near the Rock Hall or near the Flats East Bank would be MUCH more removed from downtown than the location behind Tower City. This location is 2 BLOCKS from Public Square! Not only that, but it is directly adjacent to the Q, Progressive Field, and all of the restaurants in Tower City and it is within very short walking distance to both East 4th and West 6th. Pull up Google Maps and check out the distances for yourself. If it is built with the main entrance at street level than it will effectively extend our downtown core all the way North to the River. This development coupled with wide sidewalks and traffic calming features (crosswalks, stop lights, etc...) will make Huron Rd. MUCH more pedestrian friendly. If this casino were developed downward toward the River it could even lead to some development along Canal Rd. That might be a bit of a stretch but I don't think it's out of the question. You mentioned the parking lots on Superior between W6th and Public Square. Do you really want a casino on that lot? Leave this easy developable land for the offices, apartments, retail and restaurants that are currently proposed for those sites. Use the more difficult terrain for the casino. They'll develop it because they know they can still make money on it and it could lead to an interesting design. I like to design possibilities on the TC site much more than any other flat parcel. I'm pretty sick of the Forest City hating too. I understand there are valid reasons to not trust them, but for God's sake every other city has a predetermined site and I don't here anyone complaining about those! Just because Forest City HAPPENS to own what is the most logical casino site should not be reason enough to vote against Issue 3. Well said, Hootenany...I think the location is a perfect balance: it's close and connected to the key areas of interest, downtown, while yet, it is sort of 'BEHIND (read: out of site" of the core area). Maybe that's just the way I view gambling for Cleveland... I too would not wish to see a giant casino in an open, people place like the Historic Warehouse District.

From RTA's "newsroom" posted 9/15: "2009-82, RTA will spend $350,000 of federal stimulus money from the American Recovery and Reinvestment Act (ARRA) of 2009 to rebuild the outbound chute on the Waterfront Line. This is a safety upgrade on the section of track from Tower City to Robert Lockwood Drive. Delta Railroad Construction of Ashtabula will do the work. Four Disadvantaged Business Enterprises will share 11 percent of the project, or $40,500. Work will be scheduled so as not to interfere with Browns’ games." http://www.riderta.com/nu_newsroom_releases.asp?listingid=1344 I'm all for rail safety and performance, of course, yet I'm really curious as to how a rail line, opened only 13 years ago, would need such major reconstruction.

Yes, I'm happy for RTA publicly to make this rule. It's too bad it came to this, however. You'd kinda think the driver of a vehicle who's entrusted with the lives of, sometimes, hundreds of passengers would know this going in... DUH... then again, there was the idiot commuter train text-ing engineer who wound up killing (at least) 25 of his passengers due to his stupidity... So at the very least for passenger piece of mind, I reiterate: good move!

I don't see where anyone said he's the greatest Clevelander ever. He is a wealthy, aggressive, can-do business man, in terms of development of the type we haven't seen in this town since the heyday of the Jacobs family in the 80s and 90s -- and btw, you might want to check on his Detroit philanthropy before comparing him to an old-line family like the George Gund family who's been around for generations (as opposed the 4 years Gilbert's been on the Cleveland front by dint of his purchase of the Cavs; a team that was failing under the Gunds). I don't care for gambling, either, esp what it can and does to people addiction-wise. I also agree, it is more inward than most activities, which isn't positive. But remember, this is Cleveland, and as nice as places like outdoor E.4th is, our populace hibernates for a large chunk of the year, anyway... and I'll debate MyTwoSense or anybody who misguidedly thinks that building on one of the greatest, high-density, rapid rail-connected, mixed use development in the country -- Tower City -- is somehow a negative thing. Besides this, I've resigned myself that Cleveland might as well get with the program. It's not just Detroit, which is in worse shape than we are: It's Chicago, Philly, Pittsburgh, New Orleans, and others, not all of which have images of struggling (although the recent Obama/Olympics Chicago failure juxtaposed against the horrible teen murders and other serious social/infrastructure/education problems of the alleged "Capital of the Midwest" merely highlights that most all large American struggling in many ways and are looking a gambling, on some levels, as an alternative: financially, entertainment-wise, etc.) So Cleveland/Ohio needs to climb on board and develop something of a hedge to all the entertainment dollars that are flowing to our neighbors in other states. I just get tired of this "silver bullet" nonsense, which is only a staw man people bring up when they don't like something. No one project: the Rock Hall, Gateway, E. 4th ... or any other one project is going to, singularly, turn the City's fortune around... But let's get out of that negative Cleveland mentality that, for this reason, let's not have the guts to at least try something different.

The Q is: Why not? Let’s see, MyTwoSense, you’re complaining about “everything has to be built in the same place”. Last I looked, the there is NOTHING being built at that location right now. Wolstein’s residential project is on indefinite hold, and the office/hotel that is moving forward is not where the aquarium was originally slated. MTS, if you look around you’d recognized that Cleveland needs to concentrate more development in a few places rather than it’s building here, building there sprawl that’s created the low-density developmental islands we currently have. And why not create TOD? If your complaint is why everything needs to be near mass transit (since you seem so adamant against any project having to do with Tower City and have gone on record as saying TC has been the death of Euclid retail), maybe I missed something. Steelyards Commons, Legacy Village, Harvard plaza, Crocker Park, among others have all been developed away from transit. So what’s the problem of wanting the proposed aquarium in a location near the lake, near a developing district (as well as other museums and near a rapid transit line? Perhaps the better question, MTS, is why are we hardly developing anything near our rail system? I don’t understand your point.

Great points.

I think there could/should be a large hotel built in the TC complex, just not immediately attached to the Casino/casino floor. If such hotel is built away from the casino, it would encourage people to wander away from the cocoon of the slots floor. The TC triangle is a large area, and there are still several 'holes' inside the triangle as well as, obviously, immediately outside of it while still leaving plenty of space for a substantial Gilbert casino. You'd think FCE would be all over this: more foot traffic for their struggling mall; a gigantic tenant for TC = a win-win for Miller/Ratner. In addition to a possibly new hotel, there's plenty of adjacent-to-Renaissance space to more than double that classic-though-small Cleveland Grand Dame.

Hope you're right... Something really smells about this Jacobs Aquarium. One, a major aquarium should be in a signature building (see: new, modern) not an adapted streetcar powerhouse... The proposal Council seems so eager to loan Clevelander's hard-earned cash too, feels more like a project to bail out a struggling Jacobs venture (the Powerhouse which is suffering from the death of Flats' entertainment which, unfortunately, wasn't helped much by K & D's attractive, though fortress-like, functionally-sterile Stonebridge complex, with it's no street-level retail and clubby/in-ie restaurants). I'd prefer the originally proposed location which is both immediately accessible to the RTA Waterfront Line, on Lake Erie, closer to the new convention center and Amtrak terminal and kinda-sorta near the little museum area the City's created with the Rock Hall & Science center... ... I don't know why Council is in such a rush to give Jacobs money to build HIS aquarium when, really, such a major project should be built with the best interests of the City in mind -- some of which I just outlined.

At this point, I think it's an assumption the casino would be on Scranton Peninsula. The space behind the TC north of the river may have been tight for a convention center, but it's plenty large enough for a reasonable casino... Detroit's a bad comparison for Gilbert's plan. Detroit has a sprawling downtown with 2 of 3 casinos (save the Greektown) spread wide of the downtown core. Downtown Detroit is not as interconnected, transit/ped friendly as downtown Cleveland... Gilbert's proposal connecting to the back of TC means the gamblers would be in walking distance of practically all of downtown amenities which is not the case in Detroit. I'm not thrilled about not having a hotel attached -- not in Cleveland, which is starved for a large, major classy hotel -- but I understand Gilbert's (initial, at least) idea of not trapping gambler's in one location discouraging the from checking out the rest of downtown...

Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson endorses Issue 3 casino measure By Henry J. Gomez, The Plain Dealer September 23, 2009, 5:07PM Cleveland Mayor Frank Jackson CLEVELAND, Ohio -- Mayor Frank Jackson, who is seeking a second term in the Nov. 3 election, also wants voters to approve a statewide ballot measure that would allow Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert to develop a casino in Cleveland. http://www.cleveland.com/cityhall/index.ssf/2009/09/mayor_frank_jackson_endorses_i.html

I think Detroit's Michigan Central has been granted a reprieve for the moment (thank god). I think the plan is still to move the permanent station over to Union Terminal. Good to hear (just days after the last piece of Tiger Stadium, blocks away, was torn down)... but wrecking the MC terminal, esp w/ its location btw trendy (growing) Corktown and Mexicantown would be, to steal the phrase involked when NYC's classic Penn Station met the wrecking ball: the greatest public rape in history. (with apologies to our female posters who sadly may have come close to or experienced the real thing)

Gin, I'd love nothing better than for trains to use Union Terminal -- whenever there's a book, website or PBS show about Art Deco, UT is almost always id'd as a signature palace... but you can't get around the fact of its isolated location from downtown, streetcar connection (itself speculative) or not.... Plus, we've got to look at startup costs along w/ where the terminal would be the most accessible while having the best impact on the home city (I'm just guessing, admittedly here; others know better than I)... .... heck, here in Cleveland, I absolutely feel Tower City is the best location for passenger trains, aesthetically, connection-wise (all downtown RTA buses, the Health line BRT end/pas thru out front of TC + 4-Rapid lines pass-thru/terminate here); plus there's abandonned passenger ROWs (unlike the heavy freight corridor along the lake (where the current/new station is going) TC, like UT, was BUILT as a train station, 1st... and unlike UT, TC is hardly isolated but the center of downtown, traffic-wise and w/in blocks of most amenities, hotels and shops -- and I didn't even mention it's one of the mixed use/air-rights prototypes of the nation... .... but alas, we can't use it for 3-C. I hate it, but it would make no sense esp given the reconfig the building has taken in becoming a mall and office/sports complex connection. The Lakefront Mall/conv center location -- which ironically the original TC builders duked it out with and defeated -- is where 3-C/the Ohio Hub need to be at this time... I hate that glorious TC is reduced to merely a subway terminal and a mall, but whatareyagonnado?... I want TC as a terminal, yes, but I want 3-C up and running, too... Sadly we can't have both....

... too bad about Cincy Union Station. It's a gorgeous Art Deco structure but, as noted, it's just too far away from the Cincy CBD ... I wish it could be used but it's probabally not feasible. Its current museum function is probably best; esp to keep it preserved and functional, unlike Detroit's which is slated to meet the wrecking ball.

First, downtown Detroit was/is in much more dire straights than downtown Cleveland. Casinos were looked at as a means to SAVE not supplement downtown, which the latter is more what Cleveland is looking at them for. The casinos have boosted Detroit's tourist traffic... Second, the laws must be correctly written for casino hometown's to reap the bennies of Casino taxes (ie for Cleveland schools)... I'm not a huge casino/gambling person, but I do believe we need the law passed here so we can keep the $$ in state given that 3 of our 5 neighbor (touching) states have gambling: PA, MI & Indiana.

This all sounds nice, but it'll be host to a trickle of people until Cleveland can upgrade Hopkins into more of a regional hub -- but that's unlikely anytime soon, no doubt, given the economy and stress on the airline industry. It sure would be nice if, perhaps, the potential 3-Cs Amtrak (then Ohio Hub at Cleveland) can influence more statewide, and even out-of-state travel to Hopkins --- much the way Baltimore upgraded BWI w/ the Northeast Corridor (and I-95, along with Southwest Airlines and some other lowcost carriers)... We get crushed sitting btw O'Hare, Detroit, Cincy and the East Coast... ... Ohio well, good to see Great Lakes Brewing Co. more visibility in the expansion.

Sweet Bio... DG's d' friggin man!

Currently, RTA is rebuilding the decrepit drainage system in the RTA tunnel. Sure would be a waste if the Rapid is rerouted as you note (a rerouting that I'm all for, btw). Though I'd love it, I wouldn't hold my breat waiting for HSR to be diverted there; planners would probably figure the current NS ROW to be close enough.

With 236 units, 668 is the second biggest residential building downtown (after Bridgeview). It's bigger than The Avenue District (current units) and IS part of the Gateway district. I love 668; not only are we getting a huge, high density res unit right in our core; we're turning a crumbling eyesore into a beaut and reviving a dead section of Euclid at the same time... But it's still one building, which is why I don't consider it Big. (but hey, we can quibble on mere semantics till the cows come home; we both love 668)... ... Now if we built that spanking new 24 story condo/apt tower atop the 515 parking deck across the street; I'd moonwalk down Euclid.

MMPI/Conv center and FEB, I'd consider BIG... 668, though nice, I wouldn't consider "Big" -- I love the adaptive reuse but I'd really like to see some new construction/high-density res (a la Ave Dist) in our hot areas (Warehouse Dist and Gateway)... And the casinos are way too speculative for me to even get excited about right now... First, we've got to pass casino gambling in this backwards state.

Because he's made the Cavs a perennial powerhouse... What's more, I don't see Dolan or Randy Lerner giving a flyin'g phuk about Cleveland development and future. Gilbert's been in town 10 minutes, relatively speaking, give him some time. Sheeesh... Whoever compared Gilbert to the late Dick Jacobs is dead on... both built powerhouse franchises replacing weak and/or incompetently run ones (sadly all too typical for Cleveland) and both spearheaded big, downtown development impact away from their teams, as well. (Gilbert will have more in the future, trust me). ... and as for Detroit, Gilbert is relocating his Quicken/Rock/Intuit empire to downtown while, in the meantime, he's headed up a private group to develop the downtown link for Detroit's first light rail system--- I don't know what more you want from this (young) guy... In other words, he has the audacity to be a majoy playa in not 1 but 2 Rust Belt metro areas. ... as to the proposal, I'd prefer Higbee’s NOT be used for a casino. As much as I've been converted into believing in casino gambling for downtown, I still tend to view Public Sq. as our living room and off limits to casinos... The plan for the River behind the Flats w/ TC access to the Square works for me.

Grumpy, I agree -- I was being a tad tongue 'n cheek. A commuter authority wouldn't run such a line... However, even if Amtrak is the only operator over the line, there will probably be a number of commuters between the 2 cities... An ideal model is the Philadelphia-Harrisburg line; 2 large metro areas 100 miles apart. (Cleve & Pitts are 120 miles apart)... The Harrisburg route was faltering w/ 6 trains per day until Gov. Rendell (yeah, another Dem seriously advancing passenger rail) fixed up the track and electric wires, and now this route has 13 round trips daily -- not to mention that trains have been speeded up to 110 MPH and beyond, knocking, on avg, 15-20 mins off the old trip. I was on it recently, and it feels a lot like the Northeast Corridor service, only w/ hand-me-down push-pull electric equipment (the Harrisburg trains reverse at Philly's 30th St. Station and complete the leg into NYC's Penn Station ridership is way up. .. I know Philly folks who commute daily over the route to jobs in the State Capital... The Cleve - Pittsburgh route, like this one, would probably have lots of commuters to/from the several towns in between (ie Youngstown)...

Keep up the momentum. Let's hope the eventual chosen route can balance speed/practicality with the politics of support... and Springfield?... Amazing, how adults often exhibit behavior like children: there seems now a 'they're getting one, so why can't we have one' mentality taking root... all the better, I say.

If I recall, the weird way they built the newer Stokes/Windermere terminal makes it more difficult to extend NE-ward; that the EB track dead-ends into the building meaning an expensive alteration would be needed (why do we always make things so difficult for passenger rail in this town? exhibit A: the Stokes tower at Tower City) ... //// My wishes for rail are much modest than they used to be: just FINISH what's on the table now: - build the Blue Line extension across to Northfield (and maybe, ... maybe, someday, a North Randall or Chagrin Highlands ext. can be built... someday. - build the Little Italy station; (the longer projects sit in this town, the less chance they have to get down, and this one's not been getting much attention while other RTA projects have moved forward; and that worries me).. - West Shore Commuter rail -- preferably as an expansion of the Red Line -- either entirely or partially electrified or w/ dual-mode, self-propelled cars-- better to enter Tower City to allow better frequency for this higher density route, than switching to the congested 2-track line along West lake shore (throat) while, also, having to wait for/deal with the Cuyahoga lift bridge in the Flats... Lakewood, as the 3rd most densly populated city btn NYC & Chicago deserves (at least) 2 stations -- Gold Coast/W. 117th + downtown Lakewood, along w/ more frequent, rapid transit type service, esp at rush hour... - Amtrak's 4 Ohio Hub spokes, including some commuter rail development (ie, possibly all the way to Pittsburgh on the SE leg); - start, now, seriously designing a North Coast mulimodal (Amtrak, Commuter, RTA Waterfront Line) terminal, preferably connected to the new MMPI Conv. Center. - a Euclid-E.55 Amtrak/commuter station to interface w/ the Health Line. - and perhaps most importantly: start planning for a new multi-county (true) regional transit authority to centralize/run commuter rail (and buses). ... One WISH LIST RAPID EXPANSION: Extend the WFL along the East Lake shore to at least E. 88 (which, btw, is part of the CPC lakeshore plan). It could help stimulate high-density residential growth along the Lake.

^love your avatar, Daytonnation. :lol: