clvlndr

Everybody knows Dennis is a showboat and a mass transit nincompoop (funny, he's often been a wet blanket for rail/transit projects). And yes, most (but not all) voters are w/in a .5 mile of a polling place -- but what of those who are not or, even w/in a half mile, who have ambulatory issues? The cuts will mostly impact Cleveland residents who have one of the highest transit dependencies in the State… Despite the head case known as Dennis, Calabrese did the right thing by engineering the postponement of the cuts a few days until after the election. With the continuing suspicious eyes being cast upon Ken Blackwell and the Ohio Republicans from Election 2004 polling-place irregularities, the last thing this State needs in this emotional, hotly-contested presidential election is even the hint of any manufactured voter-suppression schemes that would largely impact the poor and minorities.

The issue isn't so much the numbers of people lost by Eaton's re-lo to Highland Hills, it's the prestige of losing a corporate HQ of our largest Fortune 500 company; and in a city that has taken far more than its share hits from corp HQ losses (by out of region/state relocation, closure, etc) and job losses than most major cities. And it's certainly not a death blow to downtown to lose Eaton, but it's a solid boot to the solar plexus re all the positive things we're attempting to accomplish downtown: the med mart/cc, the growth of high-density housing, restaurant & retail, esp lower Euclid, yada-yada-yada. Also, I'm guessing that since the availability of a 'campus' has been such an issue, it seems Eaton's planning on consolidating other units at it's HQ location, wherever that may end up being. The end result being we may not just losing those jobs in the current Eaton Center, but the potential of adding many more to downtown – that is to say, a huge opportunity cost to downtown. …. The “suburbs don’t need Cleveland” is one of the dumbest, counterproductive invectives leveled at cities, esp Cleveland. It’s really a waste of time trying to argue with those who hold such views. Cleveland.com is their natural home.

Yeah, Dennis has historically been a knothead on mass transit.

Problem is, as one Councilman noted (Polansek, I think), the intent of the Highlands land was to lure business from out of the region to Greater Cleveland, not businesses from downtown, the least being Cleveland's largest F500 HQ. Maybe the Flats parcel wasn't big for Eaton, but what about elsewhere downtown, even near where the currently are which is just 'round the corner from Ave District? Land space should in no way be an issue in an under-performing downtown like ours... Its clear Eaton's agenda is selfish I also reject the ridiculous notion that Dick Jacobs -- the putative architect of Eaton's new Highland's home -- somehow is exempted here as some 'American Way' kinda guy who's simply trying to turn a buck... Isn't that the kind of "civic responsibility" by a biz leader that landed us in this current mess? I'm certainly no Republican but, dammit, how much can our local government leaders legislate, or even mediate, hometown corporations out of doing the WRONG thing? Eaton, like too many people/companies in this town are locked into the anti-urban/pro sprawl paradigm that is so outmoded, even Detroit (in luring CompuServe, Quicken Loans and GM downtown) even gets – a place even lacking the transit infrastructure we have.. (no, our biz/civic leaders are only unified in ramming a freeway through the East Side to further the suburbanization – see more sprawl -- of the City). Eaton, Progressive and too numerous retail establishments view downtown (and even the City itself) as a place to run away from, even in light of a growing awareness of its value by residential developers. Guess they intuitively understand the "... well, it could be worse" civic mentality all too pervasive in this town. I reject even the hint this is somehow Frank Jackson's fault. He entered office with a plan to lower suburban water rates to – for once in this damn place – to try and spark regional cooperation, and still we get B.S. like Eaton. He's one of the few Cleve leaders who can see past yesterday. What should he do, stand on his head on Public Square to demonstrate his indignation? Eaton Corp.'s apparent decision to leave Cleveland for the suburbs would damage downtown and deal a colossal blow to Cleveland's image … If Cleveland's largest Fortune 500 company is allowed to flee downtown, it will make a significant statement about this city's leadership. – today’s PD editorial Perhaps, but Frank should be exempted; at least on this one...

While other struggling cities like Detroit are finally luring businesses back downtown, here in Cleveland our Fortune 500’s keep fleeing to the suburbs … and beyond. It may be 1/2 a loaf that they're not leaving the region, but it's an absurd blow that suburbs are helping destroy the central city. And yeah, Dick Jacobs is swinging the wrecking ball. So thanks Dickie J, Beachwood (which is also receiving the Jewish Community Federation from its historic downtown home), Highland Hills, Orange and Warrensville; for striking a blow for continued Cleveland area balkanization over regional cooperation which keeps this town flushing down the friggin' toilet. I hope all this is some hardball negotiations ploy by Eaton… but I’m not holding my breath.

^^It's amazing those pig-headed Buffalo officials steadfastly refuse to extend the 1-line, Main Street "Metro Rail" LRT... Even in its shortness, it's an unqualified success; considerably more successful than Cleveland's much bigger Rapid system in terms of passenger miles.

Clvndr, I'm really not trying to pick... but this is how rumors get started, and I'm going to nip it in the bud. Please refer to Mayday's watched pot post above. The apartments above the corner alley (I believe they will be called Euclid Block Apartments) have not stopped. It has not slowed down. It has nothing to do with the "market". Honestly this is the thing that most people not in the architecture, construction, and development fields have the hardest time grasping. If it looks like things have "slowed" it's because most of the "visible" work is finished. Many buildings will sit in a state of looking near complete for an extended period of time. I don't know exactly when they plan on opening... but I asure you after being in and around the field for about a decade this is completely normal. Over the last couple weeks they have been pulling all the doors and frames they were finishing in the future Black Finn space into the building, they have been pulling all the cabinetry out of the space beneath the sincere building in here, they have been taking truckloads of flooring into the space. They just finished painting 2-3 weeks ago. In short they are doing finish work. And it can take a long time. I know people that have toured the space recently, and hear it looks greate... so please, let's stop with any sort of markets slowing construction, or doom and gloom talk. They've been working on this space for almost 18 months and are in the final stages. This is all perfectly normal. Add: And one last thing... there is no such things as contractor or change order issues on east 4th. The developer has their own construction crew. Hold on a second McCleveland, read my post ... carefullly -- there was anything but gloom and doom about it. My point was to try and assuage BelievelandD who brought it up so, please, cool the lecture circuit.

The Browns have one of the largest and most loyal NFL fan bases. Cleveland and Ohio are still the core of football mania despite growth in the South and Southwest... There are Browns' Backers (almost like alumni clubs) in every major metro area in the country even though the team, esp the "new Browns" for the most part, have stunk... ... I'm nervous about this season: not that we don't have extreme talent, we do, but the expectations are SO high and our schedule, esp early, is a killer. We have so many national games (isn't this what we've always wanted???) against powerful teams. The injuries and our weak 2ndary could do us in... Sure hope not; pro football is so darn quirky so you never really know.

Is the Saigon restaurant in trouble? Even during busy periods it seems like the odd restaurant out; while its neighbors buzz (esp Zocalo and Flannery's), Saigon often sits empty, or near empty. We've noticed the sometimes close earlier than the other joints seemingly for lack of biz. Seems like a nice place; well designed. I hope it hangs in there.

I didn't say they stopped or quit, like Jay Lofts; just were perhaps subjected to slow downs. It may or may not have anything to do with the RE market which, in E. 4th looks pretty hot, though still challenging everywhere in Greater Cleveland. It could contractor issues or problemss with change orders: who knows, but it does seemed to have slowed down... but not to worry, these units are going to get built. There appears a feeding frenzy on E. 4th.

Jerry, Isn't RTA jumping the gun a tad by ending the Browns' shuttles? As I understand from the (somewhat muddled) Seattle Times article, per the new FTA rule: the public transit agency would be barred only if it solicits and gets a private carrier to offer the service, but that if nobody bids after the solicitation, the transit agency may continue the special shuttle-bus service... am I reading this wrong? Shouldn't RTA 1st try and bid out the service before simply yanking it? Whether a private carrier or RTA, fans just want a stress free alternative to driving and the Rapid seems overburdened as it is, and not convenient to everybody... Now some fans are going to be left out in the cold.

The RE market is still very tough here. But with the speedy apt development of 668 next door and the (finally) return of Euclid Ave from a dusty/muddy dark corridor from ECP construction, to a major downtown street again, I expect the Corner Alley apts will start a-building once again. E. 4th appears to be getting stronger by the day.

^Okay, I'm really glad their moving forward with grand plans the area deserves... It's just that the Commodore, given it's huge size and ample street-level retail space, is definitely a player and, right now, if I'm not mistaken, it's a seniors building. I'm sure we'll hear more about this as building begins and plans progress.

Very good analysis, I think this will be transormative... Any talk about how the existing structures are Univ. East and, especially, the old Commodore hotel will mesh with the Beach and Triangle props? And what is planned for unit-types in the Commodore?

Much of what you say is true, they are different cities and the typography is very different. But the juxtaposition of the cc's is similar: backside near the center square (circle) town, shopping mall, sports stadiums, several hotels ... even the old central train station which Indy is contemplating as a hub for commuter rail -- all attached as would be TC. And Indy and Cleveland are similar in size and Midwestern character... And the very thing you find wrong -- the underbelly, is exactly why it should be built there. The area btw Huron and Collision Bend is a wasteland that needs to be spruced up. Now the instability of the riverbed, as Peabody notes, could be a deal breaker.

Indiana Convention Center http://www.icclos.com/

Scav, You seem to be stating this as a fact but yet you don't provide any examples from other cities, local surveys or other data. In the absence of such data, this is an opinion. Thus the only "mistaken" person here is you for believing we all should share your opinion. Indianapolis.

They had a very pro transit editorial in it. Really? ... would love to see it. I've gotten the sense they are excactly the opposite given some of their past stances...

... give me your club MayDay, so I can beat it ONE MORE TIME...

The Municipal Building .... ... rather obviously, the architectural model for the top of Cleveland's Terminal Tower (now Tower City).

Sorry math, the former journalist often gets the best of me...

Point 1 -- rail transit doesn't occupy prime land, it has an easement through it and if one has an understanding of rail, they realize it can and should enhance land value rather than detract from it. Crain's acts as though WFL's tracks & wires only serve to ugli-fy our waterfront rather than serving as a valuable tool for egress/ingress... Crain's isn't advocating, directly anyway, closing down the WFL, but it's obvious they wouldn't mind seeing it ended, totally are oblivious to its advantages and, clearly, are saying it never should have been built. And if that's the mentality they have, it's a pretty safe bet they would use their considerable voice to advocate against any future rail transit here... I think, X, that's pretty obvious, wouldn't you think? Point 2. X you missed my point entirely and you mischaracterize TC advocates' angle viz the Rapid -- it's a tool to get conventioneers too/from the airport to the TC Conv center and hotels... The never setting foot outside is to-from Cleveland transportation. Yeah, there's convenience of having TC's food court there, but I’m in total agreement with the worst Ratner haters that Tower City's venue is currently extremely limited. Presentations and comments touted TC’s advantages indeed also stemmed from the fact that, once here and settled, TC's site at the center of town and the attached, existing hotels puts visitors closer to nerve centers at Gateway and the Warehouse District. I stand behind my view that we're a pretty sad-sac city if we allow conventioneers to be moles -- which by the way, shrinks will tell you is antithetical to human beings -- and allow them to be shuttered away from all downtown Cleveland has to offer, now and in the future... Like I said, Indy hasn't let that happen to its downtown despite having a CC setup that parallels what we're projecting for Tower City... Point 3 (see Point 2), beautiful Beaux Arts Public Hall will fail only if we let it fail for it need not if we're innovative and aggressive -- 2 adjectives that, admittedly, don't mix well with Cleveland public officials, historically. Point 4 – This idea of a TC MM/CC creating “hamsters” in tubes or, whatever, is parallel to the tired old, pathetic argument that Tower City “killed downtown” by allegedly “sucking people off streets.” For one thing, maybe if people had gotten off their asses and really supported a downtown subway up Euclid, maybe there’s be great (D.C. Metro-like vehicle to spread people conveniently around downtown, but nooooo… Besides that, once again our passive, myopic approach to our city (the opposite of innovative and aggressive, wouldn’t you say?) got our downtown in the fix its in. We nary lifted a finger when our great shopping strip along lower Euclid went down the toilet and, suddenly, started pointing fingers at Tower City (oh, does this city love the BLAME GAME) as being the culprit. But in case you’ve noticed, the Rapid and Tower City (and it’s predecessor) have been in place for well over a half century – along with Higbee’s, our dazzling main dept store attached to it -- so why, suddenly, did Tower City of 1989 kill it, and why would the new Conv Center to be located there, keep on killing it? Your argument X is totally self serving… It took the Maron family and other developers to re-teach Clevelanders that people can and want to come up for air and venture outside to enjoy life away from Public Sq. So what makes Clevelanders, who are basking in E. 4th Street and WHD success, any more different than conventioneers who, chances are, will be itching to hunt down a good time after their program is over for the day? In fact, this latter group will be more inclined to do so more b/c Cleveland will (often) be new and different to them as opposed to (too many) stay in my suburb/neighborhood and go to the mall, Clevelanders – some of whom still brag about not coming downtown for years…

I did; update me, please. ... I used to subscribe to Crain's b/c I liked their pro-downtown growth angle... But it seemed, esp during Jane Campbell's term, to really drift too far to the right in editorials and seemed more political than urban growth, so I dropped it. It's a good local urban mag, but annoying at times.

I wish people would think first before they buy, lock, stock and barrel, an opinion that supports where they happen to want the convention center to be built: the Mall. That's especially true when Crain's makes thoroughly dumb, overkill comments like: It isn't as though they haven't seen mass quantities of public money wasted before for projects that civic leaders thought were swell. Look no further than the $60 million Waterfront Line, the transit train running through the Flats that was a Cleveland Bicentennial project. It runs most days essentially riderless, and occupies prime riverfront property that could have been put to much better use. :drunk: Hmm, so let's see, we should tear up the Waterfront line because it's on prime land – Browns Stadium isn’t, but the WFL is… Guess Crain’s never heard of urban building concepts like TOD, similar to the $500M project Wolstein's developing on FEB around the WFL -- but why mess up a good story with facts, huh? Guess this makes sense if you realize Crain's anti-transit history of opposing the very worthwhile Dual Hub subway/light rail in favor of ECP b/c it is (allegedly) cheaper (though obviously less effective) and touting the greatness of Joe Calabrese mainly because he's anti rail. But that aside, the gist of this piece is highly debatable if not totally ridiculous: we should rebuild on the near-90 year old site simply because, well, it's there; and so, the $47M cost advantage discovered by the Site Selection Committee (SSC) after months of number crunching should be X’d out b/c no one has factored in the opportunity and holding costs of maintaining that big, beautiful Italian Renaissance fortress on E. 6th & Lakeside as a crumbling, empty white elephant? (and, oh yeah, I guess the report of water table ground water hampering deeper conv. center underground digging -- to support contemporary exhibits not envisioned when it opened decades ago at the Mall -- is a lie … probably something the SSC concocted given that they’re so deep in the Ratner’s pocket to see the light of day, I s’pose)… Fact is, nobody (esp me) wants to see beautiful old Public Hall go to waste, but to simply act like it's impossible to retrofit this building for other uses is a self-serving ploy for Mall backers. There have been several proposals – are the MM/cc Mall backers here to tell us they are all knowing and each one of those proposals are garbage???? And it's beyond ridiculous to knock the Tower City site because it would afford Rapid riders an indoor connection against inclement weather. Hello! Just because people would rather not schlep luggage outside as they arrive and leave as some (not all or even most) would afford themselves of this prime asset the City has called the Airport Rapid Transit, how does it necessarily follow that the majority would tend to want to dwell underground like moles their entire stay and then race to hop the next Rapid to the plane out of town as soon as their conference wraps. So here’s the deal: let’s move the facility away from all existing built up entertainment/retail nodes of activity simply so we’ll force these Cleveland-hating conventioneers to walk outside and, perhaps maybe, even enjoy the City… Now that’s a real positive way of looking at your town… Because people may come & go to conventions via Rapid trains (or maybe, via enclosed taxi stands as the original Terminal Tower/Union Station had, does it follow they’re going to stay indoors and simply ‘escape’ to the airport and leave? Did Crain’s conduct some kind of study, formal or informal supporting this premise? And if conventioneers, en masse, behaved this way towards Cleveland, doncha kinda-sorta think maybe WE collectively would have to have dropped the ball in selling what growth and excitement is and will be downtown Cleveland? Funny how despite having really nothing much more than an national, annual car race going for it along with one of the largest convention complexes in the country, Indianapolis – a smaller, boring Midwestern hick-ish town that Clevelander’s should view in the rear-view mirror -- has been able to feed off ITS cc’s synergy and boost downtown Indy as this exciting and vibrant place – in reality more vibrant than Cleveland’s, at least at the moment. And, yep, Indy’s convention Center is tied in directly (meaning indoor connections) to a huge shopping mall and its 20,000+seat sports arena, all adjacent to Monument Circle, which is comparable to Public Square. But no, this kinda thing can never happen in Cleveland… right? But when you hate mass transit as that dreadful tool of the proletariat as much as Crain’s obviously does then, well, such bass-ackwards thinking – that rail transit is a curse not a blessing -- is not surprising. And I don’t know what to make of that weird comment about some unstated TC zeal to build ugly covered walkways to connect buildings to keep people warm – I guess – never mind that Tower City is already interconnected. But no, we’re talking about moles and not people, right, so they’ll never come up from Tower City’s bowels to sniff the fresh air, right? Just goes to show how UOers, and I’m sure others, will latch onto any point of view regardless of how ridiculous simply if, in the end, it’s end point happens to mesh with theirs…

^Yes, and one that's aggressively expanding its rail system to about 120 miles in the near future, including planned ELECTRIC commuter rail lines... all called FasTracks... See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FasTracks And all this, without having a metro area of extremely high density... did you hear that, Mr. Calabrese? (ya know, it'd sure be worth the public $$ to junket JoeC to Denver to check it out).