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Cleveland Hopkins International Airport also has trains that stop at the terminal. But use has fallen to 2% because air travelers think it's slow and costly, the report says. I'd like to see the actual statements in this 'report' and how they were procured. Groups that have a right-wing agenda can find people to parrot their own beliefs... then, peddle these statements as universal truths in ways to influence others. In the USA, "most people think of a bus as a dirty, smelly thing for poor people to get around the inner city," Marchi said. ... yeah, (yawn) this is the bigoted, right-wing talk point... I heard Rush (AKA the Big Fat Idiot) Limbaugh spouting the other day that mass transit was socialistic tool of liberals to "... take our freedom away." Still another radio right-winger was ranting that Americans have "a right" to drive their SUV's and burn as much gasoline as they want, and to hell with what the rest of the world thinks... ... and you wonder why Euros look at us as a bunch of self-centered, philistine-cowboys.

Yes, what a juicy gem. This one MUST be saved/reused... Good to see all the other rehabbing going on. Detroit's so loaded with beautiful old buildings and potential. If they can get the proposed rail (Woodward LRT connecting w/ the Ann Arbor commuter rail line), the old dog Detroit would show us some new tricks.

What makes you think that. Everything that's been presented refutes your pressumption. All the planning has been there would be a new hotel at the site and, perhaps, that the Renaissance would finally be expanded over that empty hole at corner of Superior and Prospect. Clearly Tower City would get a shot in the arm -- oops, sorry, the Ratners are hated; that's no option.

So the law's geared toward building more roads to clean up Superfund sites, but to hell with the thousands of people who ride through there each day on Red Line trains? ... er, makes a lot of sense. If that's the case, what about similar sites along the Shoreway/Lakeland freeway adjacent the NS line?

Yes they would. I'll bet evidence from this City has shown that, each time a West Side freeway was extended (I-480, I-71, I-90 West) that roughly parallel to the Red Line, ridership dropped. OC's extension to I-490 would offer a continued, highspeed roadway from the upper West Side & burbs (along I-90 West) directly to University Circle. I'm sure a lot of Red Line riders would be persuaded to blow off the Rapid for the "convenience" of their cars.

Quote of the day!! at least imho...

Once again, some OC backers make the same old argument: the Rapid is nice but, ... this is an auto-oriented town/society; I wish it were different... Fine! Why don't we junk the 'failed' rapid transit experiment, now. Pull up the tracks and turn it into one of those hiker trails -- we'd have 32 such miles right through our core urban areas! Hey!... I mean, rapid transit is simply too expensive to maintain and operate with a) a transit chief and administration who's totally against expanding it, and b) an electorate and most Clevelanders (even reflected on this 'urban' website), who take the attitude the Rapid's little more than a cute, Toonerville trolley that, maybe, we'll let the kids have fun on heading down to a Browns game or the like.... But when we REALLY need to get somewhere... So let's open a hiking trail or, perhaps, pave it out for an expanded BRT and freeways. Make no mistake about it, OCer's can rail till they're blue in the face: the goal is to make this "parkway" a full freeway, ultimately, extend it along the NS tracks to connect up with I-90 in Euclid -- er, that's why the little E.55 stub is called I-490... DUH!! This would complete, sorta, Albert S. Porter's dream: it would complete part of the infamous Clark Freeway (aimed at the Heights/I-271), and the crosstown Heights freeway where it would have had an interchange w/ the Clark at Horseshoe Lake: AKA, that 2-bit duck pond. And then Cleveland can continue sprawling into that Houston/Detroit/Phoenix-like, race-separated, mall-oriented, cul-de-sac breeding, core-less mass of suburbs so many of you seem to want...

Amen! ... in point of fact, Carnegie is SO underutilized these days, even during rush our, that Cleveland junked it's long standing 1-way, rush hour lighted arrows and have permanently made Carnegie a 2-way street... So yeah, where is all this debilitating gridlock that's literally choking off the access to Univ. Circle we keep hearing about? Cleveland’s Unique in having 3 major roadways to 1 compact area (U.Circle) in Euclid, Chester and Carnegie, the latter 2 were built wide and for higher speeds (and timed traffic lights). In most cities, there’s only 1 such road. Plus, nobody has offered a reason as to how supposedly difficult and time consuming it is for West Siders to hop off the Inner Belt and zip up Chester or Carnegie to U. Circle. Once again OCer’s WEAKEN their argument by mixing apples and oranges: If Inner Belt Bridge capacity is the issue, then the issue CAN’T be the lack of access to U. Circle, and vice-versa.

Time out, why are we shifting back to truck access when, again, our fuel supply is limited (and in the long run finite anyway) and we should be searching for alternative energy sources and transp modes? And speaking of modes, one will note that the FT is laced with all kind of main line railroad access -- the many crumbling derelict and, indeed, demolished factories (like the Schlitz brewery where JCC is rising) attest to the fact that railroad access, for centuries, established FT as a prime area for industrial/commercial development. So why can't these same rails be utilized for the goods & services for light industry you talk about? But hey Avogadro, even though I disagree, many props for at least taking time to thoughtfully answer my Qs.

I'm amazed, and delighted, at the speed at which this is moving along... 'preciate the visuals, MayDay.

Look, my take on something like this is never to shout opposing opinions down, even when I so passionately feel this is a horrible mistake for the City. No one here is God so no UOer should ever take such a stance. I just want to hear why those of you support this thing. So please, gotribe or one of you OC supporters, answer these 10 Qs 1-by-1: 1. How is OC helpful to an area where most residents don't own cars and use transit anyway? 2. If OC really is about helping the Forgotten Triangle, why is such an emphasis made on this helping U.Circle, which tends to put OC at odds for its stated purpose of helping end FT blight and really make it seem like what it is (to me at least): a commuter freeway for West Siders and some Heights people to get downtown)? 3. Explain to me how this will NOT HURT the Red Line, since it will parallel it with a high-speed freeway-type road that will encourage commuters (esp the many who currently use the Red Line to get to work at UH, CWRU and other U.Circle institutions)? 4. RTA's building of ECP/Health Line to serve this area, plus the vast improvements to the (preexisting) Red Line -- esp relocating E.120 station to Mayfield/Little Italy, making it within much easier walking distance to both the core U. Circle institutions (and rebuilding Euclid/E.115th area, as well as Little Italy. Given these vast improvements, which will make Univ. Circle one of THE most transit accessible areas in Greater Cleveland, why suddenly do we have to have this road? 5. Given 4, is this not a huge waste of money for something that’s not proven to be needed? 6. Why is Cleveland talking about building more freeway-roads when gas prices are headed toward $5.00/gallon and more and when RTA is strapped for cash? 7. Name a city (other than St. Paul, as the PD did, which has no rapid transit system) that actually has high-speed, rapid transit, esp to the same exact corridor, where the city is building roads to compete with the transit line. (you’ll be stumped on this one cause there are none, and PLEASE don’t give me NYC’s Robert Moses who was a freeway wacko in the 40s and 50s during Detroit’s national onslaught – and where, even there, transit was and IS still dominant). 8. If the Forbidden Triangle is in such need, how come its ills not be solved on the existing road grid? Where has it been shown that the current roads, as they exist, are holding the FT back? 9. Isn’t development of commercial areas, investment and TOD things that would be more effective for residents? Aren’t we seeing some of this progress in Fairfax with bank reinvestment in some of the homes, esp the brick rowhomes, along E. 89th and E. 93rd? Aren't we seeing some Fairfax housing rejuvenation in the blocks near Cleve Clinic? What about the a-building gigantic, (rapid-transit accessible) Juvenile Justice Center going up at E. 101 and Quincy? What about the great influx of workers/commuters (and possibly new residents who will walk to work) the JJC will likely cause? What about spinoff development they’re talking about with this project? 10. There’ve been suggestions that money people, like the Ratners, stand to make $$$$ off OC because of land interests in the area – prove this ISN’T the case. While I’m not shouting backers down (I do think you badly misinformed and just don’t get it), I sure hope you answer these questions because, if you don’t, I’ll think you’re either disingenuous, totally uniformed… or both.

I've respected Chris Ronayne since he was planning director under Jane Campbell, but he's totally out to lunch on this OC folly and he and all the other powers that be should be fought tooth & nail on this... Surprisingly, though, the only objections I've seen has been on this board. OC will be a "major step backwards" for all the positive steps forward the city and, specifically, U.Circle has been taking of late.

^I'm motivated to check this production out as I constantly screaming about our drift into (more like: arrival at) fascism.

Not true. Calabrese has met with the Lorain County Commissioners and proposed that GCRTA merge with Lorain County Transit. For all I know, he's met with other officials in the other collar counties. But I can't say for certain. But I am certain he met with the folks in Lorain County. While I disagree totally with Joe C on his beliefs about rail transit, I agree with his increasingly frequent calls for a multi-county transit authority. Joe recognizes, as do I, that since the wealth, population and tax base has expanded beyond Cuyahoga County, so too must the RTA, its service area and its resource base. I (happily) stand corrected.

On the one hand, we have a transit admin that is not expansive and seems to rather want just a county operation. We have Lorain county that's pushing the West Shore commuter rail project while some West Side Burbs, esp Bay Village, are either indiffernt or hostile to it. We should have a truly Regional Transit Authority and to keep calling our CuyCtyTA an RTA is absurd; at the very least change the name... If we're to have a bi-county rail system like West Shore, we would have to create some sort of bi-county system through which to funnel funds to build and maintain this one particular rail system --not unlike, I think, Tri-Rail in South FLA, or, on a larger scale, Chicago's RTA which runs both the Metra commuter trains and PACE suburban bus sytem.

Because as politiicans who have a genuine interest in the financial health of the city's living room -- downtown -- it behooves them to encourage retail and development just as any interested politician would, esp in a row of storefronts in such a critical location that have sat empty for 3 years. To hell with what the crappy Plain Dealer may or may not do.

LovesIt, you hit the nail... As open as this Church is trying to market this cafe, did you count the number of times the man in the video said the words "Christian" and "God"? That's clearly NOT a place that's going to make all comers feel comfortable. However subtle, I can very easily forsee a degree of proselytizing going on there. Cleveland pride, Brooklyn is one thing -- let's face it, there's not nearly the diversity there -- on all levels -- that you'll have in the center of an up & coming downtown of a major city. So the comparison is not a good one. MTS, that nothing is in 515 may be a result of a number of things: lack of aggressive, coherent marketing by the owners; by the Downtown Alliance; by Frank Jackson, by Joe Cimperman, whomever; maybe it's been the ECP mess that's finally, finally clearing -- I'm not prepared to say why 515, so far in its 3 years, has been a total failure retail-wise; why the talk of building condos on top has gone silent, esp given the initial and great success of nearby E. 4th street. But I'm sure not ready to throw my hands up and say: let's just let any-old-body move in just for the pure sake of occupancy esp given the fact that this location should have/deserves to have better. That's a cheap and unfair shot, MTS. If anything, if you've read my posts (re: Zocalo's, re: the Stonebridge Marketplace, even re: the new and somewhat hazy FEB design people are going off about) I more often DEFEND new establishments from what I sometimes see as negativity and unfair UO criticism. On this board, I'm eager to see what new and exciting is coming into downtown, and am esp pumped by what's going on on E 4th. What I'm saying, and what LovesIt seems to be saying is that, THIS PARTICULAR development may not be what's BEST for that particular location. For that particular location, I just don't feel its a good fit, plus I feel lower Euclid should have a more traditional and, yes, more upscale retailer. I frankly don't know who these people are; they don't even have a church building. We need and deserve better for downtown. ... that said, I'd probably feel differently if lower Euclid were teaming with retail and restaurants and this proposed church cafe was fitting in amidst a bunch of success stories... But they're not; they're the 1st, and I think we ought not be going in that direction.

With all due respect to the more spiriual on this board, in no way can I see this as a good thing, regardless of how much of a reasonable, nice guy the man in MTS' video appeared. We have a diverse downtown and city in terms of race, ethnic, religious, sex-orientation, etc... We need major downtown venues, esp in such key locations like this one for downtown's present and future, to be welcoming and comfortable to ALL people and not just Christians. There are much, much better uses for this space and, I for one, hope their fundraising for this space by Gateway Church is unsuccessful.

What about the cost per passenger mile? I'm assuming that the rapid carries more people per mile than an average bus route so maybe it is more competitive if you look at that way. Do you have this data? Yes, the relative costs per "passenger miles" seems more relevant. Jerry: Query 1: does the cost of $.85/mile for buses take into account the stop & go, esp sitting in traffic or at lights, on heavy-traffic routes like Detroit, Superior, Lorain etc? And if those ‘slowing’ factors do eat up more fuel - esp during rush periods - does not this even the playing field, if not favor rail, where speeds, stopping starting are generally more constant? Query 2: Does not the speed, capacity and efficiency of rail more than trump whatever bare relative expenses for running each mode? Consider, for example, that between West Blvd and Public Square, there can be X greater number of trains along the Red Line as opposed to the #26 Bus along Detroit? Is this heightened by the greater number of people on each car and greater numbers of cars in a “train” as opposed to a single bus, EVEN IF you factor an accordion/articulated bus as will be running on ECP? … and, yes, the playing field is tilted toward buses over that similar territory if we go a few blocks North and compare the #55s over the West Shoreway - but then, tilted back toward rail when one considers: a) the buses are non-stop over West Shoreway until near Public Square meaning that, in that territory, they will not/cannot board/discharge any more passengers, whereas the Red Line can/does at W. 65th and W. 25th, (and still maintain a competitive high speed; remember, even the 55s have to nego traffic, stoplighs to Public Sq once they exit off the Shoreway to (I assume) Lakeside in the WHD; and what if the ramp is backed up?) and, b) there’s always the greater possibility of a traffic jam/slowdown on the W. Shoreway, esp as the population along this corridor grows w/ such projects as Battery Park… Query 3: Given at least some accuracy of the above premises, wouldn’t RTA, esp now during this fuel/financial crunch, operate its rail bus system in greater tandem in the traditional manner that can maximize the capacity of both in a more efficient manner, that is, routing more gas-burning, slower/inconsistent speed, lesser capacity buses into the faster/constant speed, greater capacity/efficiency rapid transit rather than, as RTA too often does: run buses parallel to train routes where the former competes with/duplicates the latter? Query 4: when you cite the Rapid's higher $1.65/mile for fuel, exactly what fuel do you mean? How are you interpreting "fuel?" ... I'll stop for now; but I'd like your response to these.

I don't think so, not if this segment crosses the Warr-Chagrin intersection at grade and only extends to the UH building. The Green line is, I'm almost certain, un-signaled from Cortland to the Green Rd. terminal, around 1.5 miles. Ditto, the Blue line from Lynnfield to Warrensville; and I'm not sure if the Waterfront Line, beyond Settler's Landing is signaled at all... In non of those segments, I've ever heard of a train accident. Adding signal costs to the Blue Line short extension would only drive up costs and give planners an excuse -- as "reasonable/sensible" transit people, not to do this worthwhile project.

^She's just a typical obstructionist, fear-mongering pol with nothing to add; too common in this State. It doesn't speak well of Bay Vill that she's mayor... County voters must not compound Bay's mistake and reject her by a wide margin.

[NOTE: just a reminder from a 2-year-old Free Times article why Debbie Sutherland must be defeated in her bid for Peter Lawson-Jones' commish seat... PLJ is the best of the 3, and this wayward woman would be an absolute disaster; All Aboard Ohio must obviously redouble it's efforts versus her transit intransigence, while she’s still mayor, viz the West Shore project as well.] http://www.freetimes.com/stories/14/4/train-in-vain BAY VILLAGE MAYOR Deborah Sutherland wants to just stick with the Kucinich formula. Period. Allow commuter rail to set up shop, she says, and you might see the railroads giving the formula the finger. Besides, she doesn't see how the price tag is justified. "When I asked, 'Where's the funding coming from?' and they said, 'The communities are going to fund it,' I just said, 'No, we're not.' You might as well buy everybody who'd use this thing a Cadillac and let them drive that. It'd probably be cheaper."

I spoke to the engineer again, and it turns out a $3.6 million chunk of that was actually overstated by a factor of 4, i.e., it should only be $900k, which reduces the signals total to about $8.8 million ($11.5 - $2.7). Keep in mind, this is just a planning budget that allows us to assess what ballpark we're in and what funding sources are appropriate for a given project. This is not the "shopping list" that is used for hard costs (we're WAY too early in the process for something like that). So, this error is, regardless of magnitude, inconsequential at this time. Every number in the planning budget is gone over with a fine-tooth comb as planning becomes reality. Some further detail -- the signals budget includes integration into our ATC (Active Train Control) system, which is not currently in use on the Blue Line, but makes sense from a safety standpoint, especially in such a pedestrian-dense environment. ATC is the system that provides for override of operator control of a train based on signal feedback (it's the cab beeping & deceleration you'll sometimes encounter on a Red Line train as the signals indicate that two trains are operating too close together, or that a train is approaching a work zone, or some other signaling event is taking place). It also includes signal work related to bus entry and exit from the proposed intermodal station. And, it does include full traffic signal preemption (one step above prioritization) capability at the main reconfigured intersection, with the hardware necessary for both the trains and the traffic signals. Some or all of this could be excluded from the final design. I agree, the train signal costs could be dropped as this would be a short, slow-moving segment in which visual rules could be in effect for rapid drivers... However, of course, a tunnel or extension would change this.

Rather amazing that, after the Vans died after building awesome TOD Shaker Square, the city the state's oldest rapid transit spawned couldn't get it right, building sprawling, ped-hostile, auto-oriented strip shopping centers... I guess Shaker partially got it right at Chagrin-Lee when the bowling alley and drug store addressed the street w/ parking in back; only to throw it all away w/ the late-80s rebuild w/ oceans of asphalt in front... this Van Aken project could right a major wrong.

I get MTS’ drift, Market Street West (of City Hall) does echo Cleve’s E. 9th. Both are post-WWII downtown districts; Philly’s had been underdeveloped until the demolition of the “Chinese Wall” – an old masonry RR viaduct connect to the old Broad Street Terminal before it was torn down in the 1950s… Our Heights certainly echo Mt. Airy/Chestnut Hill, even down to SEPTA’s commuter rail and our Shaker Rapid (despite differing technologies).