clvlndr

"you people"... er, thanks Ross... but your point being? ^Believe me, if I had the cash, I would. None of us here does, so your comment’s a non sequitir .. My point remains the same... While, of course, there are a number of things PBL has done, compared to what he could do, w/ all his $ billions (as in one of the richest people in America), what he has done, comparatively, is piddling; and whether or not the late Al Lerner and the board did, PBL has the power to undo. You cannot convince me w/ his power, prestige, gravitas, what-have you, that he’s powerless to do so ... And perhaps I'd be less vocal if it wasn't for the nasty lecturing he gave leaders (UCI, CWRU’s long-gone president Hundert, and others) a couple years ago – much of it true, but then, there’s an adage that goes: ‘Put your $ where you mouth is…” And yet, these smaller developers are doing more concrete things in the city promoting the type of development/partnership PBL has constantly hectored Clevelanders about (in not doing).

I saw this adjusted plan in our Shaker Life mag a month or 2 ago... I'd prefer a subway, but the plan as drafted could work w/ a subway Blue Line going through diagonally... The trick appears to be the rerouting Van Aken and Northfield away from the intersection onto Warrensville and Chagrin, respectively, w/ a narrower (obviously NO TURNS), traditional 4-point, traffic-calmed, ped-friendly perpendicular intersection rather than the unwieldy 6-point, mega-wide, ped-hostile intersection that now exists. While it doesn’t look like the Blue Line will be extend to the Highlands anytime soon, all planners seem to agree that a reconfigured Van Aken/Warrensville requires at least the short extension to the UH/ex-OfficeMax office building.

As I've said, w/ light trolley wires and rails, this could be easily converted to rail and dropped into a short tunnel from E. 14th jogging under Huron to Tower City and the Rapid hub then out the Detroit Superior Bridge... I know subway is a dirty word in Cleveland (not in tiny Buffalo or smaller-than-Cleveland Pittsburgh, but here, somehow) ... ... heck, over 1/2 of the subway portion of such a line is already built. Obviously the 2/3-mile Detroit/Vet Mem Bridge subway exists complete w/ a station at W.25/Detroit... then (as KJP has noted) it could jog over to the Red Line and into Tower City where a vacant/unused (except for antique trolley storage) Shaker Rapid Station sits gathering dust... Then there's the tunnel-beginning off the Shaker/Red Line under Ontario up Huron; also gathering dust... Thus, only one underground station need be built, at/between Playhouse Sq and E. 9th -- this could have really kick-started office re-growth in the area, much more than ECP which, still, in commuters' minds is still a bus and lacks the permanence of rail... ... and has been noted, RTA's bad move of junking electric trolley wires only adds to this... so w/ all the platforms and "stations" in place, why shouldn't ECP be a candidate for conversion to something like what Dual-Hub was aiming for in the 1st place?

^I agree. Progressive's huge "campus" would look awfully nice in a tower downtown. We've all heard about Pete's split w/ Mike White, but that's not an excuse enough... If Peter B. wanted Prog downtown, ... I guess, in additoning to lecturing/puting down then given a sh!tload to alma mater Princeton, Peter's "giving back" is buying the Indians' naming rights to the former Jake ... which conveniently promotes his Mayfield mega corp (btw, notice how Progressive's adds tout its 'home' Mayfield and say nothing about Cleveland/Greater Cleveland?) ... anyway enough about him. The Marons and Zaremba, though much little-ler guys that Peter, are rolling the dice on projects that ARE helping the city build its density, livability, and attractiveness. And perhaps MOST importantly, Uptown represents developers partnering on a great project and not bickering, which, unfortunately, is more the norm in this town... So let's promote these guys, and others like them, like Price, Corna, Wolstein, Stark (we hope) and others... and to hell w/ a uber-rich, do-nothing/drag-on-the-town whiners like PBL.

Mt. Airy

Right now, I split time btw Cleve & Philly. (guess that's why I'm somewhat bi-polar) ... So, yes, I see Bro/Love-town on a regular basis. I'd say "almost European"; train service can be great out East, but tends to be linear. It's awesome if your on the Amtrak Northeast Corridor or in a burb or nearby town w/in the net of one of the 3 major commuter systems (NYC, Philly or Boston ... DC's not has good). But if you're off the corridor or not in spot towns/state capitals like Albany, or Harrisburg, you're out of luck; gotta do the bus-to-rail thing. So if you wanna visit historic Annapolis, or the huge Allentown-Bethlehem met, or outlet-mad Reading,... too bad. That wouldn't happen in Europe; at least most of Europe... Still, but US Standards, esp in transit-sorry regions like Ohio, it's amazing. That I can board a regional rail train from my house's front door in Philly and have an all train (electric and fast) trip to Manhattan, D.C., Boston or L.I. (and hundreds of spots in btw), still trips me out.

demerko, I think your a tad extreme... Hell, you can find crackheads walking the streets in the WHD... Parts of East Falls may have problem, but on the whole, it's very upscale/upper middle class-to-wealthy. You still haven't acknowledge wealthy Chestnut Hill, Mt Airy (w/ SOME rough spots, but overall, its great) or even Manayunk -- very trendy, indeed. Philly has more crime becuase it has more people. No matter what neighborhood you go in, you're bound to see people on the streets; unlike Cleveland, where so much is dead w/ little street activity.

I realize Cleveland's economic downturn (declining sales tax revs) and fuel prices are a large part of this, beyond RTA. Still, the proposals seem like a meat-cleaver approach. And if diesel fuel is the major, debilitating expense, why not shift riders, as much possible, from bus to rail... I just don't think a lot of thought or creativity has gone into these cuts/reductions.

MTS, I'll hunt down stats and get back to you; urban RE's one of my hobbies... Realtors and investors (and Wall Street) have all said that Philly, while it has had some sag, has not been hit like other places. Part of it is that, while Cleveland has yet to break through the stereotypes and doubt in outiders mind, Philly has in many ways. Plus, the population mass of the Northeast corridor is so close by -- an hour train ride to New York -- many New Yorkers, brushed off by Manhattan's crazy market, have moved to Philly, burbs and city, but esp Center City. And, as alluded to, Philly has/is a part of a gigantic transit network, regional, local, several levels of trains and buses (and rail stations are in or very near most neighborhoods), there's always comeback potential... ... in some ways Philly's just a bigger, older Cleveland: lots of potential, arts, etc, but stays down on itself... but Philly's quietly playing its best hand while Cleveland is, well, progressing but oh so slowly.

I disagree. You guys tend to ignore the many quality neighborhoods, old line/gentrifying, outside Center City that house upper mids to millionaires: Mount Airy, (uber-tony)Chestnut Hill, East Falls (home to Guv Rendell and Sen Specter), and Univ. City (a much stronger, activity-wise Philly version of University Circle), and the far Northeast (like Torresdale). Outside of the narrow (barely) 1-mile stretch of Edgewater, areas hugging Shaker Sq at the Shaker Hts border and, I guess, parts of West Park, how much real wealth is inside Cleveland's borders? Cleveland's East Side is in comparable to worse condition than North Philly, which is gentrifying big-time in many areas -- RE in North Philly is a red hot ticket; no, Philly hasn't had the foreclosure crash Cleve has had... Plus, poor Philly neighborhoods at the very least have both solid brick row housing that can be, and is being, rapidly rehabbed -- and people!. Vast stretches of Cleveland are wasteland/ghost towns; we’ve torn down entire neighborhoods inside large areas like Hough and are left, often, with building up from scratch, not rehab. And serious, stubborn decay is spreading to near the border; like Mt. Pleasant and swaths of Glenville. Yes, if you say Philly is dirtier (by far) and meaner ... I'd agree.

It’s interesting. Mayor Jackson has, as council president and then mayor, thrown his weight behind the Target big box on W. 117 (car oriented) destroying homes for 100 city residents; Steelyards a strip mall with more big boxes and, now, this thing called Opportunity Corridor, which is little more than a freeway for West Side commuters to get to U. Circle jobs. Transit-wise, he’s only given verbal support to a non-commitment to a resolution backing the West Shore Commuter rail. In the midst backing all this car-oriented stuff in a shrinking city, at the very least the Mayor could consider TOD …

... I wonder, also, about cutting the Waterfront Line to rush hour/a few events, also. I admit, there are times when trains are empty; I admit that. But it seems, lately, this has occurred less and less. How much MORE, in $ and cents does RTA really save by cutting a half-hourly, 2.2 mile rail run that uses electricity and not expensive gas? I mean, after all, those drivers who aren't on WFL runs will probably often waste a lot of time sitting around Tower City for their outbound runs anyway -- so where's the huge savings?... granted, I realize w/o WFL trains, there will be fewer runs and maybe a crew-or 2 can be dropped, but it still seems to me, w/ all the bus/rail duplication (like the 55s runing down the W Shoreway, rather than terminating at nearby W.Blvd/Cudell), the money can be cut elsewhere... Also, might a better solution (than cutting the WFL) be to time/terminate some of the 39s (Lakeshore Blvd/Euclid) lines at the Muni lot to connect w/ WFL trains? Wouldn't that save more? Also, I really wonder what message it sends to the public to cut Waterfront Line service only 2 years before the critical Flats East Bank project opens? Wouldn't it be SMART to promote Clevelanders using WFL trains to go down and check out demo/construction progress to get the public into the habit of using transit to this very excellent TOD in the making? Let's face it (sorry Jerry) but we know Joe C does not like rail -- let's just call it like it is, besides the (very admirable) station rehab programs he's had on the Red Line, Shaker Square (partial/update ADA) and the projected (Lee/Van Aken), he's been cool or in objection to the WFL and any other rail expansion project -- even commuter rail... ... But if he's true to his desire for more TOD, like FEB, it sure seems to me that shutting down the downtown/2.2 mile Waterfront Line.

I understand the bind RTA is in in Bushworld: total dependence on cars, roads and big oil; transferring "new Federalism financial responsibilities on States and of course, transit indifference... and then at the state level, years of wacko Taft/Republican producing more transit indifference and less funding... I understand that... ... but some of these cuts seem dracoinian, esp the Community Circulators, which reach so many seniors and low income residents... the CC's are so well utilized, why eliminate them entierly!?

I never said they shouldn't have quiet zones. I'm just making a statement that I hope this modern can make for better housing, but I don't want to see this used simply as a way to block or stall commuter rail; we've seen too much of this in that past, a la Dennis K... I'm assuming there's some tie to commuter rail or else why even bring it up under this thread?

Lurking has its drawbacks; welcome; nice shots.

I'm not totally surprised. Though TC sits atop Cleveland's transit hub, FCE has done everything to ignore RTA and discourage transit use. Tower City literature barely even mentions the Rapid (I've seen some that doesn't at all), but FCE trumpets there oh-so-precocious parking. Some may defend Ratner/Miller b/c, at least according to some, the city's cross-town school busing plan allegedly flooded TC with kids (largely minority kids) which helped (allegedly) scare away Neiman-Marcus and led to the continued exit of TC high-ends... Maybe, but I'm sure not giving Ratner a bye by any measure. As I've said often, RTA hovers between barely tolearted and deeply despised in the minds/actions of our local leaders. Nice talk is one thing, but actions speak louder than words.

Willyboy, I don't disagree. We should demand excellence, yes. But Cleveland has a long road to recovery; esp downtown; we’ve been badly damaged over time -- that's not saying we haven't made significant strides b/c we have, but I think we're getting ahead of ourselves. There's nothing here that tells me this project will be substandard; maybe some of the vague renderings of Eaton, which to some may scream Beachwood/Westlake campus snoozitecture, but nobody really knows what's going in there. I just wouldn't get too uptight about it at this point. It's the type of project everyone here's been waiting years for -- as opposed for that $100 Twinsburg mall-sprawl piece of sh!t. I’m too pumped about the (finally) green light FEB has received and the fast pace clearance/development is going to freak out over rough/vague artist’s renderings at this point, esp given the seeming quality and type of development that will be embraced w/in these buildings’ walls.

Not bad; certainly sans the OC. If it will jump start growth WITHOUT CARS I'm for it... But what's wrong w/ the current lines over the current grid? During Voinovich's mayoralty, there was talk of adding an E. 89th/Buckeye/Woodland Red Line station; brownfields now, certainly, w/ potential if cleaned up and certainly at the vertex of 3 major arteries; 2 w/ existing RTA bus lines... Although you've said the rising E. 105/Quincy Juvey Center is not TOD, there is potential for spin-off retail development right at/near the RTA stop. This town needs to build on what it's got before restructuring it (rail expansion is cool, though). All of these ideas, including yours, merit discussion. Just without the OC. Lord knows, though a nice system, we could certainly use expandeed rail -- it's beyond credulity, though, that we keep thumbing our collective noses at the system we've got.

Indeed. The curse Detroit's had on this country is deep and far reaching. I'm, however, at least willing to give FEB the benefit of the doubt; the buildings may not be the architectural wonders we want them to be, but remember they're dense/tightly configured and, in the case of the hotel/res tower: vertical. The footprint is tiny in the overall scheme of things and will be TOD... all good things. ... and the hard fact is: downtown Cleveland's a beggar that really can't afford to be too choosy right now.

Nothing would make me happier that to see this fail. Greater Clevelnd is over-stored (except downtown, of course) to begin with, and we're just pushing sprawl further and further away from the core. Can NOACA and/or our civic planners show some backbone and some real urban planning for once?

^I hear that. At the very least, there's been more activity on these 2 projects -- Ann Arbor commuter rail and light rail -- in recent months. The community seems to have settled and focused on these 2, and not thrown everything on the table with very little focus or prioritization -- a tactic that has dogged Cleveland's RTA transit planners historically as well as Detroit, of course, ‘til now. And with the overarching menace of $5/gallon lurking, I think these rail projects will finally get done, Pope.

... and why not throw in 2 rapid rail train transit lines (for those not clear on what it is) that weave through the area just waiting for TOD development around their stations. We have rapid transit, yet act like it doesn't exist (or that it's some cutesie amusment ride REAL people don't seriously use).

^^ Yay Detroit.

^This need not be a purely political thread, but you can hardly view Amtrak's shabby condition in isolation. And I agree w/ Boreal, I don't want to hear apologizing for McCain's sorry record on rail. There's no excuse. And yes, his record mirrors that of most Republicans who have attempted to starve Amtrak, break it up and sell only the most profitiable pieces: Northeast Corridor, a route or 2 around Chicago and a few in Cali, for private ownership, which failed mightily a half century ago! While there are some good Republicans on transit issues -- our own local cong Steve La Tourette and PA Sen. Arlen Specter, from rail heavy Philly, Republicans generally have been terrible for Amtrak and transit. You simply can't deny that ... well you could, but you'd be screaming w/ your fingers in your ears.

Do you get the sense Lakewood Council President Moran is more on board with this than Mayor Bobst? In NS's Harris' spreading the "good news," do you think NS is more motivated by keeping its nose clean viz safety and NSRT train counts? Is it clear to the pols that the cities (w/ whatever help) would have to pony up for the quiet zones whether or not West Shore commuter ever gets built? (at least, it seems pretty clear to me)... Or, as the cynical side to me suspects, the pols are hiding behind the quiet zones, and the funds needed to implement them, as a back door veto of the West Shore Line? And what’s that pesky Bay Village mayor/wood be county commissioner saying about all this? Seems kind of funny quiet zones are suddenly a major emergency, now, when freights have been rumbling through Lakewood, et al. for over a century and the commuter trains, as was noted, emit only a fraction of the freight train noise.