clvlndr

Even with a potental Wolstein-FEB theatre, I'd hate to lose the TC Cinemas. The IFF movies have been great and as bad as the weather's been, its great to hop a Rapid and only have to worry about the elements when you return after an afternoon/evening of film watching. FCE should be doing everything to keep the TC Cinemas, even if they had to relocate them w/in the complex, rather than being so callously (seemingly) eager to throw them away... It's rather easy to see why Ratner love is in such short supply. * * * IIRC, the Shaker Square Cinemas is the only other commercial movie house inside Cleveland's borders.

This public-private arrangement is the way to go, esp in a struggling region/city financially... FCE's cavalier attitude toward the TC Cinema sucks and is stupid. It may be only 2 weeks, but look at the crowds (and prestige) the Cleveland Film Festival brings to TC every year. Yet, FCE is ready and willing to sacrifice at least some of it for, in large part ... parking access!? Sacrificing people-generating institutions for the almighty auto; such an irritating Cleveland tradition.

Nice shots. Interesting shots... Compare this... ... to MRN's current E.4th Street. Major upgrade, today, but there sure was a lot of foot-traffic on the old street back then.

I don't buy the indoor TC would kill above-ground foot traffic... Some say TC sucked the life out of lower Euclid when built in 1989. Maybe but that ignores the decline on Euclid already full throttle -- remember, Euclid had already regressed from upscale shops to dollar store/fast-food alley before TC opened. Downtown & lower Euclid was much different then: there were no residences like Park build, WT Grant or E.4th apts/the heavy mixed uses there is now. Foot-traffic. Again, no Mall-champion has stepped up and explained where all the foot traffic generated from the current site is. Again, this is Dan Burnham’s revolutionary public institutional building plan (see: no retail there)… So if you rebuild there with no increase in retail there (which I don't see in any Mall plan), why should, magically, this area become Manhattan as Mall-ers are saying? Mall area is more distant from Lower Euclid and is blocked from WHD by the Justice Center. It won’t stimulate Pesht as TC has a greater chance being next door. Indeed, a supplemental hotel could be built on Pesht’s SW flank (near corner of Superior & W. 6th). Stark needs a spark to get Pesht going; this could be it… Increased back’n forth traffic btw TC/CC and E. 4th/Gateway could influence a retailer to move in May’s old space. No Rapid to Mall site. I don't buy, re Mall CC, that conventioneers would transfer, schlep bags to the (light rail/low platform) Waterfront Line from the Airport Rapid. One seat, indoor ride (as to TC) is imperative otherwise, people will cab/shuttle it, esp those unfamiliar w/ Cleveland. Besides, the latitudinal Mall model (the one I’d prefer if only b/c it contains the big hotel on the County admin site) doesn't extend over the tracks and, seemingly, there’d be no Rapid connection on any RTA line – so good luck in a typical winter storm, visitors! The airport-to-downtown Rapid is one of Cleveland's major trump cards over other cities. I'm surprised so many UOers seem so indifferent to it. Notalgia for the Mall site. Hey I grew up here, too, and have tons of memories of the current CC and Public aud: circuses, home 'n flower shows (too many w/ Mom to count), CSU b-ball games, Ice Capades,... even my HS graduation (@ Music Hall). Many fond memories. But that shouldn't be a driving force for rebuilding there. A BIG HOTEL (on either site) isn't discussed enough. Just being X-minutes from existing hotels is NOT enough. An expanded CC must have a major 600+ (preferably 800+ since Cleveland's so far behind in the downtown hotel room chase) or we're really wasting our time. We've been sold, forever, on the chicken-egg idea -- no major hotel, no major CC, and vice-versa. Deep-6 the IX! Rebuild on either site must be substantial enough to put a wrecking ball to that downtown-sapping disaster known as the IX-Center once and for all. Soil issues. While this latest article discusses river/bulkheads as a hurdle for TC, I remember seeing weak/soft soil issues could limit deeper digging at the Mall site.

^I see no great need to "finish the Group". Besides, I don't see the Mall, as unfinished -- most of us only know it’s 'unfinished' is by history books (or websites) telling us Burnham planned a union station there... If 'finishing' is the driving reason for rebuilding on the Mall, I can’t see it seriously advancing downtown... As to 'concentrating everything at Tower City, why shouldn't we build upon a site with such potential. Building upon a location that already has some traffic flow creates excitement and energy -- visit the big Indianapolis’ CC + big (convention) hotels + Circle Centre Mall + Conseco Fieldhouse + tons of clubs, restaurants and street retail (including a large Borders bookstore) all in one place to see what I mean; it's why most visitors rate (exciting) downtown Indy higher than (schizophrenic) downtown Cleveland. So why, audidave ‘spread (downtown) around’?... The mindset here seems to be to ‘punish’ Tower City (see, the Ratners) and/or not reward them … Downtown's and Cleveland's problem is we have a number of nice neighborhoods that are unfinished and, yet, we ready to start the next one which, quite naturally, will be unfinished, too. Consider the lost impact of new-ish the Hilton Garden Inn as it sits off to the side of downtown on Carnegie away from everything… So we end up with islands of activity surrounded by dead zones. I mean, how creepy is it, evenings -- even on weekends, to walk to/from Tower City to either the WHD or E. 4th along empty streets where, many of you gripe about being accosted by the homeless (who wisely set up shop along these routes)... That said, for all you Mall fans, I wouldn't count out it out -- Tower City's hardly a done deal. We've got county-owned land, on the western flank and a beautiful, largely empty deteriorating county owned Public Hall. Bingo. We know in this town big projects are often sacrificed at the alter of fiscal and political expediency. For the commishes, therefore, the Mall is a win-win... With either site, esp the Mall, if a big hotel is not a part of the equation, preferably bigger than the 600-room one discussed in the CPC study, a new CC falls way short in my book... and I don't mean, in our usual approach, a hotel 'in the future' ... 'when the economic climate is right', or whatever...

I appreciate that. You can't get a bus from the end of the Blue Line to your job?

Hey, but it's fun to debate... On this one, in the long run, downtown wins either way.

^And so, Jerry, the RTA cops have cross-jurisdictional authority is what you're saying. You can also get busted by the CPD on a bus or Rapid in Cleve or by the cops of whatever municipality the bus or train happens to be in at the time of the crime, no? ... Nevertheless, I think this new program is good news for all RTA riders. Btw, will the architects/engineers for the new Lee-Van Aken station conform to the existing Shaker Master plan for the area?

But, jmc, w/o knowing you, I'd bet you choose the inconvenience because you prefer the 'excitement' and/or other psychological bennies of the urban lifestyle over the duller suburban one -- as, I'm sure, do the others you know who live dt/work in the burbs. Developers like Zaremba, Price and the Marons understand this, and so does Stark. I just wish he'd scale it down/break it (Pesht) up, get started, then grow into his dream.

^plus 911 and cell phones have made fire boxes superfluous.

^^ Has FCE been the ideal owner of TC? No. Should they have gotten a quality Dept. store in Higbee's space? Yes (but, remember, FCE didn't cause Higbee's to be taken over by the yayhoo Dillard's either). Like it or not MTS, whether you, I or anyone on this board agrees (which I do) that FCE hasn't done enough, doesn't negate the importance of this building to downtown and Cleveand as a whole. And even in it's weakened state, it is still one of, if not the, most impressive buildings/complexes in this city. I'm still not connecting with your thought process: OK, they're lousy owners, lets kill this major complex and, to hell w/ the effect such will have on Cleveland? The Justice Center does in fact block a projected CC from the WHD. Obviously, people can walk around it, but why should they have to? the JC would be a neighborhood splitter and, imho, one of Cleveland's biggest problems, neighborhood-wise, is that our hottest/hippest areas are cut off from one another making them seem like islands pedestrians have to "get to."

Why sacrifice the location so that FCE can benefit? -- MTS Again, we all benefit, not just FCE. I'm sorry, MTS, but you're reflecting the balkanized logic that keeps leaders & developers fighting and continues to hold this city back.

I disagree neighbor. Having the center attached to Tower City only helps one group. Tower City. Not Cleveland as a whole. - MyTwoSense Huh? Helps only one group? Surely your not still letting your hatred of Ratner/Miller/FCE cloud your vision. Does Tower City belong to them or, rather does it not belong to all of us? Is not TC the most important mixed-use complex in all of Cleveland and, if so are you ready, as you sound, to simply let it die simply because you have it in for Ratner? Is that logical, MTS? Tower City is right across the street from/can stimulate Stark/Pesht and, finally, link TC with WHD, our most popular/prosperous residential/entertainment area. Ditto, to the East, it can stimulate growth in the dead zone linking Public Sq to E. 4th. Right now Fat Fish Blue is one of the only prosperous retail or restaurants in that zone. I really don't see how rebuilding at the current location helps downtown so much. How much has the old underground CC at the location helped? How much spinoff can you have at the Mall which, true to Dan Burnham's revolutionary Turn of the (20th) Century grouping, is surrounded by a wall of single-use (mostly handsome) public buildings that go dark M-F after 6p, particularly the (not so handsome) Justice Center, which would block the MMPI/CC from the WHD? --- and lets not forget, in our infinite wisdom, we've rebuilt the Stadium along the Mall/CC's northern flank -- assuming CC receives air rights to build over the RR/RTA tracks as we discussed yesterday. After the conventions are over, do you really see this area as a people place generating needed revenue for the city?

^Yet another reason why Tower City's the better site.

^Good to hear, Peabody. I'm glad you have an open mind and are willing to give them another shot... btw, I'll agree, they do need to clean up that website. Grammatal errors like they have really give a bad impression. But hopefully, like the service, this will improve, too.

Nice thread. ... and nice story 3231... ColDayMan wins: Hamtramck, MI is, in fact, the densest city btwn NY and Chicago; Lakewood's 3rd. Hamtramck: 10,900 sq/mi Philly: 10,883 Lakewood 10,208 Lakewood, as noted, carries the state. But in the 80s they used say East Cleveland was the density king of Ohio. I think they had about 36,000 which would blow away the field @ 11,613 (3.1 sq/mi). But now they're down to 27,217 for a paltry 8,761. For that matter, Cleveland in 1950 had 914,808; density = 11,788... That's damn near Chicago-like.

Great article! Very pro-transit. Not the kind of thing you'd expect in oh-so yuppie Cleve Mag. As the writer notes, cars may increase our travel flexibility, but they don't make us better people. But like (often annoying) cell phones, people act like they can't survive without them.

I've never heard that, but it very well may be true (but isn't Chicago's McCormick Place built over the old IC/Metra Electric commuter rail tracks?) Perhaps KJP has some insight on this.

re MayDay's comments: - I don't see the Mall as more "central" than Tower City, but less, esp in terms of Public Square, the traffic and transit hub. Also, (as w/ Steve Litt, too) Looks? While I don’t want some hideous structure built, I'm less worried how the new Tower City location "looks" because the proposed location is TC's backside which, now, is quite ugly -- exposed girders and the like. Conv Centers, by nature, aren’t built for beauty and, most often, cities stick them to the side of prime RE (mixed use) people areas since, when not in use, cc’s are essentially huge boxes. TC faces both Public Square (and Prospect) and faces away from Huron Rd and the River. The beautiful Terminal Tower/Higbees/Renaissance Hotel entrance is what most people, entering the complex will still see. (someone above noted the ‘problem’ of a non/less visible CC at Tower City – but remember, the current CC is underground/out of sight and, unless you’re a local, you don’t know what Public Hall is or that it’s tied to the complex). Limited Size of Tower City site? I don’t see that as a problem. The footprint is large enough, esp, as noted, if you expand into existing structures; wonder if MK Ferguson (the huge old P.O. location) and the State Offices could be relocated and their buildings retrofitted for extra conv space? Spinoff? Tower City has MUCH greater potential. MM at Tower City can (finally) grow to link, into 1 neighborhood, E. 4th Gateway, Tower City and the Warehouse Dist. As someone noted, earlier, the excitement/synergy of the Tower City site could (finally) jump start Pesht. ... whereas the Mall site (even accounting for taking down the current county buildings and expanding in that direction) doesn't really link to any neighborhood except North Coast and, maybe, Erieview/Galleria/Ave District. The Mall location is effectively blocked from the Warehouse Dist by the huge Justice Center complex and, more than likely, would be yet another downtown "island". Transit? While Steve Litt, in his article and blog re TC (it's pretty obvious he, like most UOers prefers he Mall) mentions the Rapid hub, but doesn't stress, in particular, the direct Airport Rapid connection with a direct, 1-seat 25 min, indoor ride to the new convention complex. A huge advantage for conventioneers? ah,... is last weekend's blizzard just a fuzzy memory? And ECP starts/terminates right at TC for a direct feed into the Clinic or UH, the latter being accessible via the current Red Line to U.Circle. MayDay did note TC's existing (better) connectivity. The direct indoor connection to the Q also boosts the TC site, as well. In fairness to the Mall, one thing MayDay’s red-area map didn’t note is the potential expansion over the railroad/RTA tracks and, possibly, the Shoreway, depending on what becomes of it (perhaps lowered or tunneled) in its future lakefront boulevard configuration. Existing Infrastructure? Yes, beautiful Public Hall exists as do the foundations w/ the current underground complex (although one article noted weak soil considerations could be problematic). However, Tower City already has the shopping mall, 2 luxury hotels and a number of high-end restaurants and the Q existing RIGHT NOW. Using Public Hall? I love this building, too. But I don’t believe it has become a white elephant (Litt’s words). The studio stage/sound stage idea seems workable. Plus I would tie Music Hall and the Auditorium more into the Rock Hall, esp since we’re finally getting R&RHOF inductions back, albeit in rotations. I just can’t see this building going to waste, but it is in dire need of fixing up.

Great news for Cleveland!! And I don't care what anyone says, we DESPERATELY need a large, modern, productive convention center downtown. Also, Chicago is irrelevant to Cleveland re cc's. McCormick Place is just beyond the edge of downtown because Chicago has no room for a building of that size. Unlike Cleveland, their downtown doesn't need what a cc offers. Plus, McCormick Place is for very large exhibitions. But Chicago has so many super large hotels with large conference facilities attached, in some ways, a cc is somewhat superfluous for much of the non-boat show, car show type exhibitions. In Cleveland, we've got number of small hotels w/ minimal facilities scattered around downtown. It's been long known that we won't get a 500+ room hotel without a major convention center upgrade to attach to.

Coffee!? No Bosco? ... at least, Ovaltine.

Actually, Chinatown is just on the other side of the Vine St. Expressway. City fathers had wanted to build a downtown baseball park (a la Cleveland and Baltimore) in the Callowhill area north of the expressway but Chinatown officials argued their neighborhood was being hemmed in by the convention center on the West and the stadium, on the north, and that their area would be overrun by cars... Philly's Chinatown ranks up w/ San Francisco's as one of the nation's best... ... The ballpark ended up being build in the drab warehouse-filled "sports complex" of South Philly, right near the hub of Philly's freeways (even though this is a transit-based city).

:clap: for the Lorain Morning Journal, an np that absolutely gets it!

... meanwhile, back to the blizzard (and sanity). Snow or no snow, this baby's gorgeous.

Hard-nosed bargaining by the County, apparently, is knocking MMPI off the shnide.