clvlndr

Jerry, How much does RTA attribute the rail up-tick to the ECP construction taking out Euclid which may both shift some riders to rail and cause some drivers to ditch their autos for rail into the CBD? How much is E. 4th Street's success contributing to greater rail usage? And has RTA thought about publicizing rail as a prime mode to get folks down to E. 4th (esp in light of Euclid's semi-closure)?

Paying attention to what, X? You're not saying anything... Try answering the questions, for once, rather than ducking them.

^... or does GSA now simply believe that retrofitting Celebrezze, as opposed to entering a new FEB building where rapid transit directly feeds it with more people, and hence more potential terrorists, is the lesser of 2 financial and logistical evils?

I'm still waiting for someone to answer the questions: how can high-speed type road (we won't call it a freeway) sustain high-density, mixed-use, slow-speed type development, when such roadways encourage sprawl? Conversely, how can advocates of a high-speed type road support such a plan that offers them little or no speed connectivity (see downtown/east side bypass) advantages? (and why would highway planners and West suburbanites suddenly get so interested in inner-city development when, heretofore, they could care less?) The 2 road types are at odds with one another ... and then, why would anybody advocate rebuilding existing, healthy (and growing, passenger-wise) rapid rail system to its detriment (speed-wise, which would discourage use by their existing passenger base at the outer ends) to accommodate a roadway? ... especially, where this has never been done before (and for good reason).

TRIBE SLAYS THE MIGHTY YANKS!!!! WHAT A GREAT RIDE. NOW LET'S WHIP THE RED SUX... ... btw, Turner Classic Movie's primetime flick tonight? ... you guessed it, Gary Cooper's "Pride of the Yankees." ... natch.

Congrats Jerry, RTA's national award, at the very least, is causing current non-riders a reason to give RTA a 2nd look. I know I've heard a buzz about it among friends, family and coworkers.

I feel your frustration. I think Stark's brashness and newness has cost him at City Hall and the County Admin building. I also get the sense that the banks and realtors have gotten their chuckles at Stark's Dubai-ish Pesht, as you put it ... In addition to Crocker Park and Crocker East (Solon), let's not forget he's still the favored company to redevelop the huge Shaker/Warrensville/Van Aken project; none downtown but in the burbs, Stark's apparent comfort zone... At least the Shaker project is a TOD unlike his others...

Correct. But w/ the new POP fare system, they won't need drivers on the rear car(s) -- Baltimore runs its Light Rail in this fashion. I've read here that the current cars can't run w/ a single driver even w/ this change... I sure hope RTA rewires those cars to allow this-doesn't seem like rocket science... I'm reeeeallly tired of seeing RTA forcing 1-car trains on crowds during big events. It's borderline unsafe -- drivers have told me that -- and I can't believe their saving that much $$$$.

Destroying the Yanks is TOO SWEET. One game at a time and, this year, may be THAT year. Unlike those powerful 90s teams, we've now got the pitchers John Hart could never find... Let's give it to LeBron, but keep it friendly. He's obviously a huge part of the good times for Cleve Sports -- yeah, I'd tone it down if I were him but let's not go off the deep end.

Nice thread... never been to St. Louis. Supposed to this year, but well... next year... Very attractive city... I love the brick rowhouses and 2-flats. I'm always struck by how small St. Louis is, pop-wise. Seems like its density and high-rise apt/condo buildings would give it more people.

It's not my "philosophy"...I was just explaining some things to you from an historical perspective...."here is what happened and why." Sorry, Jerry, I should have clarified I meant Joe C's philosophy instead of yours... didn't mean to shoot the messenger. :wink:

MayDay, before you roll your eyes again, understand the point: it's not the material itself that's an eye opener (at least for those paying attention), it's that a bellweather Cleveland neighborhood and its vexing issues brought on, in part, by out-of-control foreclosures, received headline billing in one of the nation's most prestigious newspapers. And no, unlike the scare/negative, poorly-researched schlock we get in the PD, this was a thoughtful article by Jim Rokakis, an important local; county treasurer, no less ... So it's not a just the typical lightweight a dump on Cleveland piece by a low grade broadsheet. And maybe, we could also focus on the awful side effects such as the tragedy of Asteve Thomas, and too many others like her... If Cleveland and Slavic Village is getting that level of national attention, maybe Cleveland worse off and maybe its time to hold the banks’ and the pol’s feet to the feet to the fire – before other Asteve Thomas’ have to die as the end result. ... oh, and by the way, I happen to live in this city too, … thank you very much.

Jerry, with all due respect -- as I respect and much appreciate your input -- I couldn't agree less with your philosophy on this. As KJP mentions, as have I in the past, rail transit should be driven by a city smart-growth goal. It can stimulate growth in a sick city (imagine, for example, what rail could do for or neighbor Detroit which is suffering worse than us). No one is asking for rail to throw money away, but if city growth is the only aspect that should signal rail growth, you still haven't answered my Qs as to why cities like Pittsburgh, St. Louis, and Minneapolis are building and growing rapid rail systems, and Milwaukee is hotly pursuing one? -- all these regional cities being similar to Cleveland in terms of growth/job-loss (see Rust Belt), sprawl problems. As to Joe Calabrese's junking "big projects" and pursuing small ones, like transit cleanliness, I say this: the extension of the Waterfront Line in 1996, prior to Joe's GM-ship stimulated interest in transit that I had not seen in this town. It's true, the WL is not/was not the ideal line, but prior to the death of Flats east bank, when the Flats was in its heyday in the late 90s, I saw something I'd never seen in this town: people hopping trains into town after rush hour when there was no big event in town. RTA had been a sick joke in this town until the 90s when, finally, locals saw the 1st rail extension in 30 years. That excitement, and not bus or rail car cleanliness, attracted people back to transit. (and, oh yeah, I don't recall those 'problems' being major in pre-Joe Calabrese -- see, below). And those "big projects" Joe shelved were, as I saw it, the result of locals hunger, after the WL line, that RTA was finally serious about expanding rail, ... and they wanted more... One of those projects shelved, btw, is the very same project that KJP and his people are valiantly attempting to revive: the West Shore Commuter rail line into Lorain County. So I question the success of Joe's little projects -- other than winning an award for RTA, which really means little to the riding public, when there are smart, economic means to develop rail, like West Shore, to a wider public… Oh yeah, and when I look at the garbage along RTA right-of-ways, esp the Shaker Blvd canyon which I ride through regularly, the thick underbrush that scrapes Rapid car windows through there, and elsewhere, dirty stations along the Blue/Green Lines, and crowded 1-car trains jammed unsafely with elderly and women with kids in strollers, etc, I seriously wonder how successful Joe’s “small” programs really are…

This OC will most directly siphon traffic from Midtown but also downtown – consider those from Lakewood and NW who will travel south to I-90 and around downtown rather than the Shoreway or Detroit through it. … I say this is “freeway like” if not a freeway. Freeway builders want you to believe it won’t be with all the talk of development of the Forgotten Triangle… it’s the ruse. The goal, instead, is to build a high-speed access way to speed Heights commuters around downtown and West Siders to U. Circle around the city. ODOT and friends haven't given up on an East Side freeway since the Clarke Freeway was (thankfully) killed by grass roots activists 40 years ago. If this is not the case, why do people still talk how much this road will help U.Cicrle when there are plenty of roads to it? Why is ODOT pushing this as an extension of the Inner Belt? And since when are "access roads" funnelling into freeways not freeways themselves? As for the Rapd downt the middle: no city (in its collective right mind) puts a freeway around an existing rail system; none in the USA has ever done so because it makes no sense. Rail is designed to reduce auto use and encourage the type of high-density that is directly at odds with freeways, cars and parking lots... this would be a black eye for Cleveland. You’re not going to create another Shaker or Van Aken with a rapid in this freeway. You’d only end up destroying the Red Line. Why not pursue the TOD that’s been talked about and is happening at U. Circle, E. 105 and elsewhere rather than advocate this silly freeway? What does make sense is the idea, mentioned here, that some may in the future wish to end Red Line service and run BRT buses along this OC.

This was the headline article in today's Washington Post's Outlook (opinion) section. Not the kind of national notoriety Cleveland wants, but should be an eye opener to all of us who care about the city. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/09/28/AR2007092801331.html?hpid%3Dopinionsbox1&sub=AR

I'll bet those cars were either stationary, being stored/laid over during a big event, or a 4-car set being sent back to E. 55 street at the end of a rush period (probably the latter as they appeared to be coupled and their didn't appear to be 'big event' downtown traffic at the time of these photos). Wouldn't it be nice if we could generate the train traffic to demand 4-car trains on a regular basis? Nice pics btw. Love the sky as well as echoes of our endearing industrial might.

Well, despite the many building losses, we did gain the Key Tower, a magnificent skyscraper in any city's skyline.

So that's been his top priority? Ummmmmmmmm! :? :roll: :? :roll: :? Now wonder why rail hasn't been expanded/enhanced! Clvlndr....I'll let finish this one! I know you're dying to write two paragraphs and make a historical reference to "what could have been". :wink: Anyway, in true Cleveland form, Congrats to the non management employees at RTA! :clap: :clap: MTS, you're all over this one and I have nothing more to add. :wave:

I agree with both of you, it's a regressive project. The 2 motivating "reasons" for this road are in conflict w/ each other: a) providing jobs and "opportunity" in the Forgotton Triangle, and b) speeding traffic to U.Circle. A freeway-like road to create opportunity in a poor section where a large percentage of folks don't own cars is paradoxical. Conversely, if the road is NOT a freeway, creating opportunities (and I'm skeptical) then where's the advantage to U. Circle when drivers can get to U.Circle just as fast over existing roads? This OC makes no sense. Haven't we focused enough on roads, freeways, cars and more parking opportunities enough inside the city limits? And why are so many urbanites on this board in favor of a road that will hurt downtown?

Clvlndr....let it go....let it go man! LOL Yeah, MTS, I know... glad you're back... sorry for your loss.

Btw, heard Mark "Munch" Bishop advise Browns tailgaters, visiting WKNR's Browns remote from Muny lot to leave their cars on both sides of town, take the Rapid into TC then the Waterfront Line all the way to the end to "avoid the hassles." Good for him! It sure would be nice if RTA could work with media outlets, such as this, to encourage more people to take transit, other than the usual RTA psa's. We need RTA to think outside the box more...

I still say, failure to build the subway loop in the 50s to complete the hot new Red Line Rapid really killed downtown over time, esp Playhouse Sq. I kind of think that even the Warehouse District, though not in the planned footprint of the subway (at least in terms of a station-stop any closer than Terminal Tower, which is pretty darn close) would have, likewise, reaped the benefit of the subway. As for the electric trains at Union Station: I never quite understood why the Vans didn't expand this into the rapid commuter rail they proposed rather than building the totally separate rapid system (with separate power) and electric engines that merely hauled trains from the eastern and western edges of the city merely to keep TT clean... Seems a huge waste and lack of foresight to me which was borne out by the fact this expensive system only lasted about 20 years. Contrast Philly's huge electrified suburban commuter rail network that's still serving 100K riders per day!. The Vans could have built that here...

Very true, KJP, I just wonder how much that's an accident or whether it truly is insight into adding value to such a tight-knit development just in case NEO-Rail ever develops this route? Cynically, I tend to think the former... You know, Crocker Park, which is a very nice (I must confess despite my anger at its existence where it is in our struggling metro area), dense faux downtown (whoever said CP is actually more of a diverse/vibrant downtown, at the moment, than the real downtown was right), could have similarly been built astride the West Shore commuter Line (also a NEO-Rail finalist, if I'm not mistaken) you are currently trying valiantly to activate. Yet Bob Stark chose to stick the place in the at the edge of that boring, sprawling, cul-de-sac-ed, homogenized no-man's land we call Westlake at the edge of the county not far from, of course, a freeway exit, much like this new proposed Solon joint. I'm not thrilled; in fact, I'm repulsed. This is Cleveland, where talk of development of TOD is rare and when it does attempt to materialize, as it happily appears to be in the U.Circle area, it's after year's of battle. (and mind you, U.Circle still hasn't begun just yet so I'm not counting it as a done deal)... Maybe some more progressive metro areas would come up with a sort of inverse TOD of the type you speculate for Solon. I just don't see it here... Just seems like yet another Cleveland scheme to pull our loci farther and farther away from the struggling mother city... just like we always do.

Everything in UCircle's falling into place. Let's keep the momentum going.

Too bad the reporter didn't ask this asswipe about the viability of ocean-going shipping. If 100 years is all a mode of transportation is good for, then boats should have been banned more than 2,000 years ago. I love Americans. We act as if the world before 1776 was prehistoric. If the age of something is the determining factor on whether it can continue to make a productive contribution, then maybe the senior Mr. Garrison was speaking of himself. Geez what a jackass... and I thought Berkeley was a progressive institution.