clvlndr

My e-mail's there by tomorrow.

^I hope you're right, noozer. It is promising we finally have a governor who's behind this. As you know, as a State, we're playing serious catch-up for a fairly large, industrial state viz passenger rail... Ohio-Hub is a great and logical plan... At least some of the media are getting behind this, too.

^Maybe it's just my paranoia having seen all the work of the High-Speed rail commission go the way of the dinosaur in the 80s, but I'm a little fearful of even the use of the term "high speed" anymore. I think it's a big ol' fat target for conservatives (as in the ones who will quick label any rapid rail new service proposal as "gold plated" -- now tell me, has anybody ever seen any train system ride on golden rails?)... I feel more comfortable with, and I think should be pushed, the term: "conventional passenger rail." That's in fact, what it is and that way, no one but an idiot will be able to attack it (and if they do, they can be quickly exposed).

Well, you got it. Thats' the problem when a giant organization like Cedar Fair owns ALL THREE PARKS in the state. I knew Kings Island was "safe" due to location but Geauga Lake was clearly going to be shut down (and it was basically confirmed when Kings Island received FireHawk) which is a shame as Geauga Lake easily beats Cedar Point in a few categories (wooden coasters, for example). Plus, GL was our (Cleveland's) park. You don't have to drive over an hour to get there, only to sit a lot longer on CP road over the 2-lane bridege then out to the narrow peninsula; then stand for an hour at a time (if not more) to board popular rides -- esp the coasters. CP has now become an international amusement park; it's the roller coaster capital of the world. For a non-themed amusement park, there are no superiors ... Your comments make me wonder, could there not be someone local to run GL? I mean, I know the costs are steep and sometimes the profits are minimal, but I still see a market for such a park. Would it be in the interest of Geuaga County to step in? with maybe a slight assist from Cuyahoga Cty -- it is right on the border and Cuyahoga residents obviously reap GL benefits and, I'm sure, is home to its largest patron base.

I heard on the radio Cedar Fair will be dismantling the rides next year. Sucks bigtime. Last time I was there (2 summers ago) it was packed. I never liked the idea Cedar Fair owned both our parks. I was waiting for the other shoe to drop... You'd have figured they'd consolidated in Sandusky, esp w/ all the bad news in NE Ohio, economically... But it still stinks. It was a great park and I agree w/ the sentiment there was probably mismanagement afoot.

^jon, I like your idea, but does May's have enough floor sq footage for the Mart (I forgot their desired specs)?

Ugh %@!! ... another Cleveland circus? I sure hope not. Just stick w/ Tower City and build the damn thing. Can't anything get done in this town w/o the histrionics?... geez...

^^Map Boy, I agree w/ your sentiment that cooler head should prevail here. I just hope, whoever is the legit voice for LI get out in front of this thing and, if as you state, this LLC guy is a for-profit man, at the very least, LIRC should calm him down so he won't shoot from the lip/hip. I'm hoping your right and this is just part of the "comment" process for zoning. I think we all realize how important projects like these are for the city, esp a part of town w/ so much going for it, already, as Univ. Circle/Little Italy. And now that we've got RTA up and actually moving on this, it is the kind of lightening in a bottle no one wants to squander.

^^ Very nice. Kudos to RTA; glad to see them getting serious about these important projects. I just hope the other coordinating parties (ie, Little Italy viz E.120) will cooperate and not battle/road block. As to Puritas, I remember KJP (I think) saying RTA's days of rapid-palace stations were over due to cost... Well, apparently, they scrounged up some cash for that thing, it's humongous. Personally, I'm glad to see it, cause it can only make a positive impression and attract riders like the impressive stations at W.117 and Triskett, among others... Let's hope RTA can get the hotel/etc. developer back on board with the promising Brookpark proposal of a few years ago that went kaput.

I know MANY people who would rather use street cars and/or (especially) trains, compared to buses. Many reasons being: The routes are obvious, they don't wait in traffic, weather is not an issue, run cleaner, etc etc. Trains (rapid transit, commuter rail), yes; streetcars? Not necessarily. One of the excuses used in eliminating streetcars is they clog vehicle traffic because the must board in the middle of the street and are inflexible -- that is, they can't shift lanes or go to the curb to pick up passengers... I think heritage trolleys are cute, but I'm not sure that, aside from nostalgia, they are viable alternatives to buses and cars. Not like private right-of-way Light or heavy rail rapid transit or commuter rail.

Cleveland Clinic is now pushing for the Avon I-90 interchange. The Avon mayor kinda/sorta hinted he may pit his support for the W-S commuter rail against Cuy County's failing to support the I-90 interchange. So now, how does CC's announcement favoring the interchange for their prop'd Avon outpatient center affect the W-S line, if at all?. Some are saying a new Avon exit won't have the negative impact on Cuy Cty that some people think, although certainly a CC outpatient facility more than double the size of the one in Westlake won't help Cuy County much, will it? One way or the other, I can't see CC's announcement as helping the cause for W-S, that's for sure, no matter how this thing shakes out.

But this doesn't let LIRC, -- or whoever the "legitimate" voice of LI may be -- off the hook. You're contradicting yourself because LIRC absolutely should weigh in. If indeed they are in disagreement with LI, LLC as not representing the 'voice' of LI regarding these project, then it is incumbent upon them to speak up, ... otherwise, they tacitly adopt LI, LLC's position which, as I said, is obstructionist, ridiculous and just plaint particularly given the tedious and thoughtful hard work of RTA, UCI, CWRU and the developers in finally coming up with an extremely potentially worthwhile development for U.Circle and the city at large. That there is any confusion at all with a parking lot owner/developer, makes LI's collective voice all the more urgent, esp since, via the PD, this project is finally getting wide publicity and (rare) positive PD press. Sorry Map boy, I'm not buying it. We're approaching 1 month since that ridiculous letter rezoning app denial request. Little Italy, like their bookend neighbors Hessler Ct, have a reputation as obstructionist project killers. The long empty lot at Euclid-E. 115 and the un-relocated E. 120 Red Line station are evidence of these groups' handiwork. So unless LI wants to alter this negative image, the time to speak is now.

I agree w/ KJP's assessment of Mayfield Lofts and the garage-on-street concept, though it is not w/o precedent. Ironically, the similar sounding Larchmere Lofts, a few years ago, did the same thing. And now, across the street from lively Boulevard Blue, passersby get the pleasure of looking through garage windows to look at cars. Street-facing garages, with their ped-interrupting driveways are the antithesis of mixed-use street development... ... as to Little Italy's LI-LLC letter: boy, I really don't like the sound of it. Sounds like, once again, we may be headed to some sort of showdown. I sure wish, for once, we could get all the principals singing from the same sheet of music... I'm wondering, though, if Little Italy really wants to intergrate with U.Cir or just wants to be obstructionist? To straight out ask for a denial of rezoning, w/o negotiation, as well as attempt to make RTA's relocation to LI plan sound speculative when RTA is obviously moving forward to relocate in LI makes me highly suspicious of the LI-LLC's motives here. New demographic or not, it certainly wouldn't be the 1st time for LI; not by a long shot... If LI has a master plan, then show your hand ... or step aside.

Very true. Cleveland is doggedly auto-centric despite the existence of the Midwest's 2nd best transit system. And yes, RTA can't carry the TOD ball by itself, but it can teach and lead the way in public-private partnerships. Look at the exciting TOD planned at the 2 Univ. Circle stations... I do think the City of Cleveland should get more active in partnering with RTA in TOD... but lest we forget, it was Cleveland (Mayor Jane and Council Pres Frank) who pushed for the very big-box Target you mentioned on W. 117th which, also, uprooted over 100 residents and destroyed several blocks of homes where the same target, and its asphalt sea, now sit. And don't forget the City-led, big box Steelyards Commons as well... 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

X, I understand your point... But to a degree, I think maybe your focusing on the hours such establishments keep rather than the lack of such establishments in SS. Actually, btw, Dave's stays open until 10p. But in general SS is, compared to most Cleveland quality urbanized hoods, an early-to-bed kinda place. I think a lot of this stems from the older, richer populace nearby in such places as uber elegant Moreland Courts (sorry MyTwoSense) and adjacent Shaker Hts. But really the Rapid can get you to a number of the type of places you mention even when they are wanting in the immediate area. Examples: Blue Line to Shaker Hts hardware; Blue/Green downtown connecting to the Red Line to such places as K-Mart (West Park); Home Depot (I forget which stop); and, as KJP mentioned, buses to Target (Steelyards) or that new one on W.117 -- where, I guess, you can hoof it or bus it from the Rapid stop there... Also, remember, once upon a time, SS had a Halles and a swank Franklin-Simon, among others. I don't expect you'll see such stores in SS anytime soon given the comp from Malls and "Lifestyle Centers, but choices will be even better, easier once we can finally get some seroius retail back downtown again. TC gives us some options... Believe it or not X, such big city neighborhoods in a New York, or Boston or DC or Chicago aren't much more complete than a Shaker Sq. I'll grant you that the trains may be a tad more frequent and late night and stores may stay open later, but just as in SS, one often has to hop a bus or train to get to some of the type of retail you mention... esp in Chicago which, as you know, the crowded and lively many areas, is a vast plane... and remember, the L, though large by our standards, misses large swaths of Chicago and close in burbs whereby riders must often use connecting buses to finish their trips... Cleveland stacks up quite well to such places walking/transit-wise in certain areas. I think, maybe what is motivating you (and what motivates a lot of people to not use RTA) is that traffic is light, comparatively here, where as in a Chicago, NY and even compact towns like D.C. and Boston, driving can be a pain in the ass. In most instances, moving about by car here is a snap... We're spoiled as we have the best of both worlds: Cleveland has about the best balance of any major city between good transit and easy driving.

Nice shots... Midtown's my fave Atlanta hood, too. It kind of reminds me of Chicago's Gold Coast areas, w/ sleek highrises, low-rise older walkup buildings and mixed-users. ... and yes, lots of foot traffic through several retail/restaurant districts; MARTA rail serves Midtown quite well.

Really X? What's optimal? I think all the neighborhoods KJP mentioned are good. And don't forget, Ohio City is not only criss-crossed by so many West Side buses and the Red Line Rapid, you can easily walk downtown over one of the bridges (or thru the Flats if you so please). Also, I have a number of Shaker Square friends & neighbors who don't have cars and don't want them. (beautiful/historic/compact) Shaker Sq, esp after Dave's Supermarket moved into Wild Oats' empty space a few years ago (Bless Dave, ... really). You've got restaurants, theatre, grocery, cleaners, knickknacks plus, NOW.... (drum roll, please)... a spanking new CVS smack dab in the middle of Joseph-Beth's booksellers old space. And don't forget, you've got Larchmere a block away and a 48-bus ride down the hill to wonderful University Circle (plus Chagrin-Lee-Avalon and Van Aken Shopping Ctr going away from downtown).. What more do you need, X? (and we won't even get into such things as direct rail downtown, employment/sports/entertainment, plus a 2-train ride to Hoplins Airport)...

^wow, KJP, I didn't know you co-wrote Care Free in Cleveland. I snapped it up, immediately, when I saw it in Borders Beachwood when it came out... Unfortunately, I've since misplaced it... It's an impressive book and I was proud a progressive-minded group of Clevelanders would publicly, and forcefully, "just say NO" to automobiles -- really cutting against the grain in this (psychologically) auto-dependent town. I've always said Clevelanders could be car-free if they wanted to... If only they could get a little help from RTA in running the existing system (ie, the late-night weekend Rapids I beeatched about in Jerry Masek's thread), ... and how about some all night bus service serving the most densely-populated, transit friendly neighborhood in Cleveland -- I'm, of course, speaking of Shaker Square where ALL service, rail & bus, shuts down after 1p -- and the closest 24 bus line is the 14-Kinsman; a good 2-mile hump through some very questionable nabes in the darkness of night...

Jerry, one major beef I have since the dawn of the Calabrese Admin is the chintzy attitude towards rail. Most notably this manifests on the Blue/Green/Waterfront light rail lines. In particular, I hate the idea of RTA's forcing 1-car trains down our throats even during big events, of late, like the 4th of July fireworks and last weeks airshow. Joe seems to treat Rapid rail service as though it is a mere expensive bus (where buses can do just as well... Not!) rather than the Cadillac/Mercedes of the system it's supposed to be. It just seems dangerous and stupid -- penny wise and pound foolish. As a county service for riders, I can't see how the cost of an additional driver, even if some overtime must be paid, is worth the costs. Last week at North Coast, there were families and old people crammed into cars running every 15 mins, esp after the Air Show was over. Many infants were with families who had strollers that struggled to be brought aboard through the crowds, even when folded. It was so crowded and so bad the driver, driving carefully, had to warn families to hold on to their kids during the curvy, elevated stretch of the Waterfront Line. Makes no sense. I've often heard RTA drivers and scheduling personnel grumping out the unsafe nature of these operations. Really, can 2-car trains be all that expensive to run? And with the new proof of payment (POP) system about to go into effect, shouldn't RTA rewire Shaker LRV's so one man can drive 2 trains (as is done in Baltimore)? Why risk injury or even death (which I'd really hate see) just to try to prove to the public you are saving money? While I'm at it, don't you think RTA under Calabrese did a huge public DISservice by eliminating summer, late-night weekend rail service; extending trains a mere 2 hours on Friday and Sat nights when there are tons of people, often drinking, who could use a Rapid ride home to sober up and not putting these drunks behind the wheel? Isn't that an important serivce rail transit is supposed to serve? Ditto for Joe's elimination of all-night New Year's Eve rail service, which had been a Cleveland tradition stretching back to the beginning of RTA. What say you on these issues?

Awesome. I know CVSR decry the suggestion, and maybe I'm engaging in wishful, rose-colored thinking, but those CVSR folks in your photo look a lot more like commuters after a long work day than tourist/joy riders (esp the guy w/ the large envelope under his arm). Even though its not the perfect routing, I sure hope we soon see CVSR trains traveling all the way to Tower City.

This is fantastic. Glad RTA is finally getting its TOD act together... Isn't it ironic that, a month or so ago, RTA's spokesman (a guy named Self) reported in the PD that we wouldn't be seeing rail expansion any time soon since the "demand" isn't there and, yet, with these grand UCircle projects, Red Line rail is properly flex its muscles to create demand?

It's not recent. The PD's been doing this for decades.

KJP, doesn't this show that this experiment had cars run over the W. Shore route planned to/from North Coast? Also, while I appreciate your comprehensive recitation on possible technologies and routes for the WS to enter downtown, you didn't answer whether you thought the idea is feasible for local CVSR to lend WS some equipment for demo runs? Sounds like the cheapest alternative... one that may make sense given the extreme budget concerns.

That's obviously true. I deal with this "hard stuff" every day and UO is an escape for me, and I take it as such... Yes, I can harsh about some opinions here. Was it Santayana who said something like: those who fail to recognize history are bound to repeat it? I’ve taken 1st time visitors to such places as Tower City and the Flats before it, among other things. Yet, often (not always, but too often), we Clevelanders tend to heap negativity on places and things most non-Clevelanders find positive. For example, UOers – a more enlightened urban lot over most Clevelanders -- are nevertheless generally negative to Tower City. I’ve heard it compared to Randall Mall and some make the place sound like a glorified flea market. In the case of the Flats, we completely destroyed the East Bank, and much of the West Bank, leading to the “remake” efforts now underway. I say we b/c we spread the word the Flats was bad and word-of-mouth kept people away. We had a national treasure unique to Cleveland that we destroyed which could have been avoided ... Baltimore’s faddish, plastic Inner Harbor went into decline in the late 80s early 90s. And yet, the City refocused new activities on the IH (ie: more kid/family oriented stuff, like paddle boats and, then, opened a network of harbor water taxis to exciting Fells Point. Somehow, if the IH was in Cleveland I fear we would’ve bad-mouthed the place into oblivion and, then, convinced ourselves its death was “inevitable” – we Clevelanders, too often, are quick to rationalize our failures. My out-of-town friends who are open to this town are frequently surprised by the pervasive negativity here. Maybe I overreacted, a tad, to the negative comments about Zocalo, but it felt like more of the same. All I say is: give the place a chance before everybody piles on with negativity toward the place. Like Tower City, on a different level of course, it may have problems, but its existence far outweighs it having never existed. If this town didn’t have such a ton going for it, I’d have left long ago and wouldn’t even bother with websites like UO; but we do have issues we need to be mindful of… As this site is more influential than some realize – note the recent sign on by RTA’s Jerry Masek – we need to be cognizant of what we say esp about retail establishments that rise and fall by consumer sentiment or the lack thereof.

A high density, indoor parking structure with street retail on the sidewalk that would, also, fill in one of those maddening 'gaps' in the WHD? Sounds like an all-around winner to me.