clvlndr

{sigh of relief} All right, let's nail this thing down, pick a location (I'm noping its Tower City, but frankly, almost anywhere DOWNTOWN would be agreeable to me). Let's bring this baby to fruition and reap the possitive spinoffs it will birng.

Not good. This is very frustrating for such a key project for downtown that began with such fanfare and promise. Corrigan's deadline has come and gone and Wolstein appears no closer to getting these last parcels than when Corrigan ordered settlement talks. It seems the heat must be ratcheted up on Mr. Kassouf lest this thing get out of hand and Wolstein having to bail because of costs.

^^That was my suggestion earlier MTS. I know lack of $$ is going to be used as a stumbling block. But if all this money is going to be thrown around for this redesign anyway, why not spend a little extra (which, in context, would not be that much) to enhance transit? I mean, wouldn't connecting the Warrensville/Van Aken to the Chagrin Highlands with high-speed rail creating density and negating some extra parking be worth the money? Once again in this town, we look at transit as a nice, but not essential, expensive business and not a key service and tool for city building... ... as for problems Shaker officials might be having with Stark, I wouldn't know of course; but there does seem to be a pattern of Stark's ultra-bold plans overreaching and turning people off. I know Cleveland by nature is conservative, oftentimes to its detriment, but while I admire Stark's enthusiasm, I wish he'd tone his plans down a tad. For example, I understand he wanted to tear down the huge, gorgeous landmark Commodore Hotel at U. Circle's triangle -- UCI balked, and he backed out. Admittedly, in the plan KJP notes above, there aren’t any buildings in Stark’s path that are worth saving in the overall context, like a Commodore Hotel, but I still wonder why he couldn’t work of the existing street configuration that exists? I thought the original plan was narrowing the existing grid while ‘calming’ traffic and build lots of mixed-use development up to the curb.

I'm glad to see this too, but I'm really a little disturbed that work re the long, long, long E. 120 discussed station rebuild, relocation is dragging along. What's going on here? As outdated the U.Circle station is, it still is functional, well-located and safe enough to draw large crowds, esp during rush hour (and esp tap into the huge the Univ Hospital workforce/commuter base). But E.120 is in such poor shape, so dank and out of the way, it is hampering growth and needs to be addressed before any more rebuilds imho. Frankly, even though much focus has been on relocating nearer to Little Italy, even rebuilding on the same site, with better lighting, safety and access would be far better that what's being allowed to sit there and rot.

^I'm jealous.

Let's not forget that Tober's main 'pet' project, which was foolishly rejected by local officials, was the very-much-needed Dual-Hub subway-rail tying into the existing Red Line network. Its failure led to the less-than- 1/2-a-loaf ECP; a new, untested, lesser technology that is not physically compatible and cannot mesh with the proven technology of rapid rail -- which we already had in place!!!! ... I think once the Waterfront Line finally spawns Wolstein's East Bank development -- the largest TOD in this town since the Terminal complex and Shaker Sq, folks (not you) will stop carping at it... ... look, there's never an excuse for any leader to abuse underlings and humiliate them, esp publicly and if Tober was about that, to hell with him... That said, I also recognize that in Cleveland, especially, you have to be a bastard on some level to get things done; to break through the typical Cleveland lethargy. Whether you like them or not, more seemed to get done here in the 90s when the Dynamic Trio of Mike White, Ron Tober and Dick Jacobs ruled their respective roosts and, in each case, their much lesser replacements (Jane, Calabrese and el-cheapo Dolan) have seemed to stall progress and send Cleveland back to its usual struggling – not true on all fronts, of course, we seem to be slowly pulling out of it, but… In Cleveland we favor personality over progress; nice guys and consensus-builders rather than those who produce. In sports we turn away the Steinbrenners, Belichick’s (hated here b/c he dumped popular but past-his-prime B. Kosar, but who’s only gone on to become the best coach in NFL history), Marvin Lewis’ and Lou Pinellas in favor of the Gabe Pauls/Vernon Stouffers, Charlie Manuels, Eric Wedges, and Romeo Crennells – nice guys but, well, you see our teams never win anything (often/usually $$, or rather, the chance to save $$ rules around here). On the field & court we like tend to go for the choir boy types rather than the nasty boys who only win! Universally we thumbed our nose at nasty NBA’s Rasheed Wallace who, though imploded this year, mightily helped propel the Pistons in ’04 to the trophy we’ve collectively covet but are still waiting for as the 43rd year since the last one ticks off -- I do pin a lot of hope in the rare, more nasty, bottom-line guy like Dan Gilbert who, as owner for once, here, is also filthy rich. Note, though, he had to 1st ruffle a lot of Cleveland feathers by coming in and doing the right thing firing the popular but non-producing Paul Silas... and it's no mistake that pushy Danny Boy, who in 2 years got the Cavs into its 1st ever Championship, is from outside conservative Cleveland. You’ve got to knock heads around here to get things done and individuals who do so are often loathed. Joe Calabrese in many ways is the perfect kind of Cleveland leader. He charms and preens but does little to promote transit progress; in fact, he retards it – and, in so doing, makes him a hero in many quarters here, … the oft conservative Crain’s Cleveland Business being among them. Maybe Ron Tober made some errors, pissed people off and had ugly cost overruns for rail in Charlotte for the trolley, light rail and commuter rail (which we’re still desperately trying to build here). But Charlotte, NC, an overgrown conservative backwater, is being dragged kicking and screaming into the realm of modern cities in the process – it’ll be all the better b/c of Tober. Ditto here in Cleveland where his “… big capital projects” as you put it (jump starting Red Line station rebuilding, the Tober walkway the stimulated Gateway and, yes, the Waterfront Line) will make/are making Cleveland a much better city. Hell, as much as I dislike ECP, it is transit progress and will draw a lot of national curiosity for Cleveland and, without Tober’s dogged agitation for Dual Hub, the Euclid corridor may have been stuck with absolutely nothing…

^fast forward to Aug 2007. Scrubbed up a lot, but some grit is still there! Love those fire escapes on Wonder Bar's building... they're a keeper!... TGIM, thank goodness it's Monday. Who needs New York anyway?

Hard to get more "New York" than that, eh?

You know it won't be the chief.

I noted this, and think it is typical PD stereotypical, anti-intellectual nonsense. If this were, say, 1960 whose census first indicated we were losing population (in the city but growing in the burbs) it would be one thing. But NOBODY I know of thinks Cleveland as trying to grow as big as or be exactly like Chicago, accept (as I do) that we have a lot of what Chicago has but, happily, dish it out in a less expensive, more hassle-free setting. It's a straw man argument. I just object to articles like this because, to me, they offer nothing but fear-mongering and depression. As for learning to live with less: aren't we doing that? Haven't we learned, as preached by Mayor Jackson (among others), that greater regional cooperation is what will not only help this region survive, but thrive? Aren't we seeing this with the support -- Democrat and Republican (suburban mayors) for the Med Mart tax? And isn't the Med Mart, plus CWRU/UH's quadrangle campus and example of attempting to capitalize on a great nationa strenght of Clevelands, medical R & D?... Where was this in the article?... No, for the PD the slant is always how desperate we are, doomed we are and (via architecture critic Steve Litt) how little we have (quality building-wise) and because we're such a bunch of unsophisticated country boobs, can't appreciate what little we have... Typical PeeDee.

Maybe it's just me, but I look at this article is just another, typical scare/negative piece by the PD. Consider: - This is old news. Cleveland didn’t just start losing population like, say, yesterday or even last year. To jump up and down about it now just increases feelings of depression w/in locals. - Why keep pointing to 1950? Yes, that was our peak, but the city's economy was totally different then; America was different. Cities like Cleveland were only beginning to experience suburbanization and we had only about 2 freeway stubs (Shoreway and Willow/now I-77 which barely pierced the city limits) to enhance this. Suburban population was small and confined to -- what are now inner-ring suburbs -- relative to today. - Kinsman is a BAD neighborhood to focus on. Even though it had housing, its housing stock, even then, was weak and shoddy developer/worker housing compared to most neighborhoods, even such low/mod income hoods like Fairfax. The article tends to ignore the affect of the change-over from heavy industry to light-industrial/service has had on Great Lakes cities like Cleveland. What's more, the waste created by those factories, with the attendant brownfields, have made much of that area practically uninhabitable. And we’re not even talking about those pesky back-hauling truckers who have illegally turned the neighborhood into a dumping ground. Yes, there are other neighborhoods, like Mt. Pleasant, or Collinwood, that have issues that should be addressed. But to hold up our weakest neighborhood with the weakest potential – one that's historically been that way for, at least for the past 50, 60 years, is totally disingenuous on the PD's part. - What about the resettling of bombed out areas of neighborhoods like Hough which, until the 1980s (Lexington Village) and 90s, Chester McMansions, Beacon Place, new housing tracks that have gone in, was a decaying wasteland. What about the huge Longwood estates complex that's gone in, in a bombed out neighborhood like Central? Sure, I’m not nuts about a lot of the suburban-type housing that’s gone into these hoods vs the many apartment buildings that went from thriving->abandoned->drug houses->wrecking ball/empty lots? Of course not, but the fact is, there is some progress. - What about the shift to areas like downtown? Oh yeah, you can cook the numbers and make downtown Cleveland look like it hasn’t accomplished much viz other Midwestern cities by limiting our downtown to the CBD while allowing others to suck in neighborhoods (like in Detroit) up to 3+ miles away -- why does Cleveland always seem to draw the short straw on such comparisons? Fact is, though, downtown is growing dramatically since the 1970s; and continues to grow. And how could Mark Salling, that CSU demographer, predict Cleveland’s population will ‘… dip below 300,000 by 2033 is beyond absurd. Who the hell knows what Cleveland will be like in 2015 let alone 2033! It’s a stupid comment and reflects poorly on CSU. It’s fear-mongering and irresponsible journalism by the PD to even print it… - And once again, you’ve got Tom Bier throwing around that “Poorest city in the country” garbage when, in fact, those numbers have been questioned and, even by the standards given, as I understand it, we no longer hold that ‘lofty’ position. - Finally, what realistic solutions did this article note to stem this problem? What did this article - BOTTOM LINE: Articles like today’s increase my extreme dislike, even hatred, for the PD. It’s old news, it’s twisted news and its typical of the kind of crap we can expect from them. I’m no sunshine blower – everyone knows that – but articles weak, unoriginal, twisted articles like these make one realize that we simply are not being properly served by the our newspaper – oh yeah, I forgot, they’re the only game in town, major NP-wise. ... and never, never forget, this is the newspaper that dropped Cleveland, it's hometown name, from its masthead and title because, nationally, they did not want to be associated with this town ... its hometown!! How many big city papers have you seen that? (even the 2, count 'em 2, Detroit papers didn't do that!)... So should constant negativity like todays PD crap surprise anyone?Makes one long for the long-gone Cleveland Press. The Plain Dealer is fish wrap (or worse) as far as I’m concerned. If it wasn’t so abrasive to the skin …

Thanks for the Dispatch article, Florida Guy. Interesting, well-researched article (at least, aside from glitches MyTwoSense caught); I count, there are 5 --Terminal Tower, Stokes Courthouse, M.K. Ferguson (the old central P.O.), Skylight and Landmark (which is really 3 office towers connected). Otherwise, I like this article, it's informative. I really hate to see the Galleria struggle. I consider it one of the most breathtaking modern malls in terms of design in any city -- I actually prefer it, architecturally, to Tower City. It did so much to soften the harsh/bland International school lines of the old green Erieview Tower, and it sits among the gleaming towers of modern downtown. It was such a hit when it opened; I remember feeling like I was in somewhat smaller version of Chicago's Watertower place (only prettier). MTS is right, Tower City really killed the Galleria. It was so easy to hop off the Rapid into the temp-controlled TC, esp in winter, and this was years before RTA’s Waterfront Line put people off nearby the Galleria... However, I still have to believe, with the right planning, the Galleria will have its day, once again. Maybe Zaremba's Avenue District next door will pump new life into this downtown beauty.

You're talking about the ground level of the Sincere Building condos. Yes, it appears the pillars do limit usage type, but there must be some type of usage in that space that can fly -- bank branch wouldn't be such a bad idea -- anything than its current eye-diverting state... Yes, Flannery's has been a huge success and anchors the south E. 4th entrance similar to how the Corner Alley anchors the north... It sure would be nice if that old, abandoned Goldfish Army-Navy block of buildings could be rehabbed... not the most appealing view from Flannery's while knocking down a few cold ones... I think, though, with the renaissance occurring on E. 4th, and in Gateway in general, it's only a matter of time.

I know a lot of people dislike the Waterfront Line, but how can it be successful when even RTA doesn't even encourage its usage to the Rock Hall when, in fact, it best serves the area (certainly better than the Line B trolley going only as far as E.9th & Lakeside)? Isn't this dooming the WFL for failure?

I know this topic bounces around btw the U.Circle thread and this one, but I'd like an update on the plan to relocate the Red Line's Euclid E. 120 station. Is that plan in limbo now? I think it is a very important factor in the rebirth of Univ Circle's Triangle area. So where is the project, now? What can be done to get it going?

Has anyone calculated the possible impact, direct or spinoff, of the Medical Mart on lowering vacancy rates assuming it goes in at Tower City?

You raise a valid point, gotribe. Originally, I thought E. 4th was being overdone -- sometimes, part of me still does. E. 4th's been popular a long time as a New York- type narrow busy/junky street. Over time, though, I've warmed to the idea of its present incarnation. I guess maybe once ECP is finally finished I'll feel more of a loss in driving btw Prospect and Euclid, but for now I'm fine with the closure. Bourbon Street in New Orleans closes every night to auto traffic after 8 or 9p, I believe, and the ped-only feeling is exciting. E. 4th is starting to have that kind of feel. MRN's proving that, in the summer, E.4th doesn't need cars because the word-of-mouth excitement drawing people to the wider patios (along without the added pressure of having to dodge autos) in numbers like it never has in the past. And the re-energizing jolt E. 4th is providing to the Gateway side of Public Sq is helping balance off that of the old-news Warehouse Dist... I'm fine with E. 4th the way it is and can't wait till it's completely filled out housing-wise and restaurant-wise. * * * As for Philly, I lived there during the 90s when there was a controversy as to whether the sidewalks on tight streets (which are the vast majority in Center City) could safely accommodate al fresco dining on the sidewalks. City ordinance had to be changed to allow such dining on streets where sidewalks lacked the footage width(s) needed for such dining. Like Cleveland (there are parallels btw the 2 city's inferiority-complexwise, btw) city promoters feared the by-the-book law & order folks were dumping on the city's chances to be a more tourist-desirable place like NYC up the road (or even DC, down)... But several years and many hearings later, it was changed and Center City is now booming. However, on many E.4th Street-like Philly streets where there is al fresco dining there are problems for pedestrians to squeeze between diners and car traffic; it's a headache and, from time to time, a ped gets hit by a car. As visually interesting as such streets are, I'd rather have E. 4th street the way it is. If you want to see al fresco dining mixed with live car traffic -- albeit significantly 'calmed' traffic, the WHD is only a few blocks away.

I think Corrigan made absolutely the right move in tabling the ED action, but it feels that Kassouf used the negotiation period only to jerk the the City/Wolstein around. I mean, come on, the man's international travel is so important (f*ck Cleveland) that he lacks the time to seriously concentrate on negotiations to get this thing done? ... as (he knows) important as it is to the city? It's turning out with this guy, we've just wasted a good 3 months and that ED's the only thing that's going to solve this - it sounds like he and Wolstein are miles apart and no one's really moving. But I really fear that, if Kassouf loses, he's going to appeal and tie this thing up even longer; and then, what about Wolstein's increased construction costs at that point? ... And to think, I really liked the guy after the promising Davenport Bluffs proposal that went bust; but he sold out to the FBI and Channel 3 (and look at the people-unfriendly crap we got at that location); and with this, I now view the man as more growth-sapping parasite. Somebody tell me I'm wrong (I want to be wrong). I recall Wolstein indicating that if he lost, he'd pony up the cash so he could get this behind him and move on. Is this still true?

Yep, one of those things we tend to take for granted. I just wish we had the leadership to expand and maximize it. Outside agitation for things like the West Shore Commuter Rail plan give me hope.

Ragarcia, I couldn't agree with you more on this point. It's very parallel to urbanlife's point on today's RTA thread; we have too many leaders who are too quick to justify lethargy: no money; bad economy; poor demographics, ... etc, instead of having the balls to think outside of the box and getting things done. Why did K & G start building what now is a mega/always-sold-out mega complex in a dark corner of the flats (on what was, at the time, the deader side of the Flats) when the more typical developer here would grab property and sit on it until the "... the market gets better" (read: until they can somehow coerce some pol to give them some sweetheart publicly funded deal). And yes, I'm glad you mentioned it. Why didn't OfficeMax build downtown here...in its hometown!? (I guess those OfficeMax adds plastered on the Indains' outfield fences in Jacobs Field was the extent of OM's civic responsibility). And yes, you hit on something else: our downtown is actually DOING BETTER than a lot of these towns are building opening this retail. We have the growing downtown population (and even nearby/accessible downtown populations like Ohio City, Tremont, Edgewater/Lakewood Gold Coast, who could and would avail themselves of such downtown retail). And we have the mass transit infrastructure, certainly over most Midwestern cities, to move large number of people into town without cars and how, in turn, we can build more dense development at our core. Our downtown is compact and easy to negotiate on foot… All makes you wonder, and become frustrated as to why we aren’t building retail… And no, this isn’t some pure negative rant. Fact is, I’m all the more frustrated, like ragarcia perhaps, precisely because we have done so well on many levels. We have the largest downtown population of any Midwestern city other than you-know-who in Illinois. And this in addition to our aforementioned advantages. So yes, why does Cincy have a downtown Saks? Why a Target, and others, in sprawling, unfocused and transit-challenged Minneapolis-St. Paul? And yes, I too walked the streets of largely dead Miami just 3 weeks ago, and yet they do have a Marshals and Ross and, yes, a weak Macy’s (weak, but as noted, it does exist). Don’t call me negative. Negative is the mindset that constantly makes excuses why it can’t be done here when other towns are finding a way.

All joking aside, I'm still trying to figure out what the heck you were trying to say here. Let's try again... Dillards became Higbee's around the time (or shortly thereafter) Tower City opened. Dillards was universally panned and shunned by many Higbee's shoppers who, rightfully, thought these Arkansas hicks couldn't run our prime downtown department store. Next door, however -- attached, in fact, you have a gleaming new mall filled with individual shops. These shops, located under one roof, for some/many, no doubt became like the departments of their long-gone Higbee's (hence the title "department store") the only difference is that these shops are owned by separate companies but, again, of a higher quality than Dillard's; logic would dictate a specialty store would do better than Dillard's weak effort. So rather than go to Dillard's men's dept (cause the product and service is crap) you may go to Brooks Brothers, if you can afford it. A younger woman may go to Ann Taylor's; teens, the Gap. Guys, rather than going to Dillard's shoe dept, ... Johnston & Murphy, etc... Obviously, the type of high-end department store FCE initially sought -- Neiman Marcus, would NOT have hemorrhaged customers as Dillard's did Higbee's old crowd. But, alas, N.M. could not be landed. Now, do you get what the heck I'm talking about?

To the extent you'd rather see this project fail than build on the Mall?

.... and don't forget the Water Street Apts nestled on the other side of the Main Ave bridge overlooking the lake... 9th Street was the other missing Great Lake downtown street (Michigan was destroyed in Terminal Tower's construction/street reconfiguration)... 9th was Erie Street; hence the ancient Erie Street Cemetery across from Jacobs Field.

Boy, Reed is a real knitwit. If he's successful in sabotaging the MM project, I'll move to have a recall election to has his butt thrown out of office.

^That 1989 hotel proposal would be sweet; but I guess I can say, some 77 years after Terminal Tower's opening, I'm reasonably satisfied that it is now, mostly finished. In the scheme of things, the triangle at Ontario & Huron is small. Also, remember, there are Terminal spinoff developments like the Gateway stadiums and the 24-story Stokes Courthouse that are outside of the Vans' footprint. Aside from the aspects that killed Higbee's noted: most notably, Dillard's B-level store compared to old Higbee's, many customers swarmed Tower City and the mall stores, essentially, became the 'departments' in the department store, albeit individual owned/operated. I think Med Mart (if we can somehow build/get it) is better for the property and Stark's Pesht is were a new store should go; and/or May's old space, if it can be had.