clvlndr

Look, I understand construction is a part of progress. And ECP is progress. I just think there needs/needed to be better communication as to when, where and how long construction should last. That's why I think some people are upset. And this is Euclid, mind you, the main street of Cleveland.

No question, the BRT movement is growing across the country and, as much as I'm not a big fan, it does have a place in urban mass transit structure. Pittsburgh, as the article notes, has had a form of it for years... The BIG difference here is that a) we have a rapid rail transit system and, b) we're using BRT in our central corridor where some type of subway -- as part of that rapid rail system -- should have been built... But that's behind us now. It's tough to see businesses closing because of the construction -- I'm really sorry Best Gyros and Pizza (formerly Best Steak) has gone under -- I didn't know that it had closed but am not surprised; it would have really been a strong anchor for CSU's "college town" concept. It always happens when subways are being built. Always... The difference is, this isn't a subway and, yet, it seems the work is as drawn out (if not more so) and even messier than subway construction I've witnessed: in both D.C. and Baltimore. I'm glad to see shelters going up right now and even I'm curious to see how ECP will turn out. But I sure wish to hell RTA would hurry up and get this thing done and, even more so, better communicate with the public as to what it's doing (signs, regular reports on its website and in the PD, Sun papers and others) and when it's going to get done.

40 years? Consider the Van Sweringens opened an incomplete Terminal complex in 1930 with footings for "future development" -- that future didn't occur until nearly 1990, some 60 years later. So a gaping hole of surface parking between what are now the Landmark Office towers and the main Post Office until Tower City, with it's mall, Ritz Hotel and Skylight Office Tower, all that time... Yes, I love this town, but you really have to be patient here. Things take time. ... btw, I'm really disappointed to hear about the sad shape of the Galleria. From all I've heard, things were looking up there...

Look, this isn't groundbreaking stuff... They're right wing conservatives. If you learn anything about these creeps (and excuse me, I'm not trying to sound condescending), they are have the craft of turning things around -- much like Orwell's 1984... double speak. They say liberals "hate America" yet it is conservatives who bash the poor, gays and minorities, and if women aren't in the kitchen or bedroom like little Laura Bush windup Donna Reeds they're... stop me... But guys like Trivisonno and other RWers hate cities; they HATE Cleveland. They preach fear of 'others' and encourage people to barricade themselves in their little homogeneous cul-de-sacs 20+ miles outside the city with their guns so they can be 'safe' -- can you say, Medina? Burton? ... etc. You think Michael Moore was on to something in "Bowling for Columbine", eh?... It's kind of like any media operation that doesn't preach the right-wing gospel and kiss Bush's ass is part of the left wing liberal bias/establishment... Beeeatches like Ann Coulter are heroines at WTAM... I heard that lightweight Glenn Beck talk about a relative who taught at Yale, and all Beck could talk about was how dangerous New Haven was -- not to mention how underdesirable being at a liberal stronghold like Yale was. Oh yeah, this just in -- conservatives despise people who think for themselves. Intellectuals are bad, that's why the love affair and godlike status RWers accord to country bumpkins from the South... It's a shame WTAM is the most powerful station in town, signal-wise, b/c they hate Cleveland. So really, no need to get bent out of shape about the hatred and fear fat blowhards like Trivisonno.

^^ I sure wish they could do something with Sincere's ground floor. 1st it was the boarded up graffiti-ed look. Then they removed the ugly boards only to reveal equally ugly pillars. I'm wondering what's making retail at that location so difficult (hey, maybe it is all those pillars which would hamper interior space use). It a shame since E. 4th is doing so well, esp Sincere's across-the-street neighbor, Flannery's.

^You're right, one street does not a city make, but many more downtown streets are strong and getting stronger. And Gateway is becoming more and more a legit residential/entertainment district that isn't solely dependent on Cavs & Indians games. I think E.4th is largely at the center of this just as W.6th was at the center of WHD's revival decades ago.

As I've said many times, developers like MRN and K & D (Price-Corna) are best suited for a conservative development town like Cleveland: start with a small project and steadily build on strength. Time after time in this town, we've seen the big, splashy (home run) projects stall for one reason or another or die: District Park, Pesht, Wolstein, Triangle/U. Circle, etc. Hopefully, the latter 3 will get off the schnide and get going, there are some signs. ... as for E. 4th's growth, it took some time. Picwick, then HOB got things percolating. However, it seems Corner Alley really kicked the Street into high gear as it appeals to such a large and wide cross section of people... and mind you, Corner Alley has appeared very successful despite the fact it fronts on that mess known as ECP/Euclid. And it appears that the other retailers are feeding off Corner Alley's success.. Imagine how strong E. 4th will be when ECP is finally complete. MRN has made some mistakes to be sure, but overall, they've handled their business very well and E.4th is a major Cleveland success story on many levels.

Wow, what an amazing complex. The late professor Eric Johannesen in his 1976 book about historic Cleveland architecture (1876-1976) had an extensive section on the ornate nature of our old insdustrial architecture and, if I recall (I'll have to go into storage and dust it off), there's an extensive section on the Tyler plant... Cleveland's seemingly got so many of these old industrial butes around town but sadly, some aren't being developed enough prior to meeting the wrecking ball -- ones on Detroit at W95th and Euclid & Lakeview have recently succumbed; and these could have been TOD-revived... Let's hope a grand project like Tyler Village can teach that such adaptive reuse need not be confined to the Warehouse District. Oh yeah, there is Chicle and Slavic Village; but Tyler Village appears to dwarf those guys.

I totally agree. I really don't think Cleveland should worry about the NYC project at all. That's not to say that Cleveland should dally in its decision-making process; Cleveland should work as hard as it can to get this done as soon as possible BUT NOT BECAUSE A DEVELOPER IN NYC IS SPOUTING HOT AIR ABOUT HIS PROJECT. Cleveland should get this done as soon as possible because it could be an economic shot-in-the-arm FOR THE CITY. Let NYC say what they want! They want to make a medical mart there? Great! Don't let them bully us into making this a fear motivated thing, though. Let's face, for me anyway, this was a "fear motivated thing" even before Isreal Green leapt into the fray. My fear is that Chris Kennedy and the Chicago boys will pull the plug on Cleveland because we're doing our typical Cleveland thing -- posturing populism with typical grandstanding and wrongheaded opportunism by loud, yet influencial, grass-roots (usual suspects) opponents (can you say: Zach Reed or Roldo Bartimole?). There are a lot of pluses to building this thing here, obviously, but Cleveland ain't so significant that Chicago planners will spend their limited time and energy here while we punch this gift horse in the mouth... That this NYC proposal might heighten such a feeling is a possibility, but not the main gist of my concern.

Well, gauntlet's been thrown to the ground. We've already let New York usurp our Rock Hall induction ceremonies. Now, are we going to let them pull the rug from under our number 1 industry; one that, frankly, we better the Big Apple in terms of prestige? I see and hear Cleveland Clinic commercials nationwide; there are Cleveland Clinic installations in many parts of the country. I sure don't see any, say, Columbia-Presbyterian Hospital commercials. With this challenge, we really have strong evidence to shout down the referendum morons who'd just as soon keep Cleveland 2nd rate just in exchange for their own personal aggrandizement

:drunk: LOL Yeah, my late night posts can produce some amusing results.

You're right, but Minny as yet is in the bullpen... Fact is, most of these larger systems have to be as large as they are to chase the greater-than-Cleveland sprawl they've experienced in being so car-oriented. But that doesn't let us off the hook.

Given these facts, I certainly hope electrified rail would be a component of the alternative analysis. People should be trained not to be bummed out by the higher capital costs to the long term inflation-proof nature of electric rail, particularly since the technology already exists in the region. For once, we need to plan a key transit link without the guiding facet being how cheap it is.

Join the All Aboard Ohio team! www.allaboardohio.org Also feel free to drop me a line via PM. The discussion of whether rail gets built in cities with population growth, worsening traffic etc. reminds me of a simple question. Does transportation follow economic development, or does economic development follow transportation? The simple answer is both, but does the weight of the argument go to one side or another? In Cleveland (especially at organizations with a social service mindset like RTA) the weight of the argument leans heavily to "transportation follows development." I take the opposing view - development follows transportation. RTA will say where's all the development along their rail lines? I ask them how can an organization whose culture and objectives are to provide a way to get the downtrodden to jobs, shopping, medical appointments etc. be expected to take a totally different approach, one that carries the risk-taking of an entrepreneur, and promote transit-oriented development. Since it takes years (if not decades) to change organizational cultural, I would love it if RTA instead contracted out ALL of its development-related initiatives to a private entity (or even to CDCs) to undertake: + land use planning within 2,000 feet of stations, transit centers, major transit route intersections. + work with Planning Commissions and City Councils to adopt the land use plans so that they carry the force of law. + property acquisition, demolition of structurally deficient buildings, site clean up. + RTA backing interest loans (ala a port authority) or lease-back financing to end users of buildings that meet goals and criteria of the site's land use plan. RTA already is contracting out the development of land use plans and that's an excellent start. But there needs to a cohesive strategy that ties together all phases of the transit-oriented development process. Simply coming up with a plan for a site and offering a few pieces of RTA property for sale or lease to an end-user is not going to spur redevelopment along transit lines. RTA has immense bonding and financing power in its permanent 1-cent sales tax that generates in excess of $250 million per year. Compare that with Ohio port authorities, which are typically supported by much smaller tax rates and have to be renewed every 5-10 years. But they make their weaker bonding capabilities work to much greater effect on spurring development than RTA does. The only thing holding back RTA is its mindset as a social service organization. It doesn't need to. Excellent points. As we know, the best historical example of development following transit is right in our backyard: the aforementioned Van Sweringens who built Rapid lines into empty farmland with the idea they would stimulate upper class and high density development. We've had many decades to recover our early 20th Century swagger (in city reform + building and the arts) after hits like the Depression, industrial decline and social upheaval of the 60s. We should get away from the idea of transit as a social service agency but as a city-building tool... You'd think that an comically distressed city would be more open to such thinking... ... then again, you'd think Geo Bush wouldn't have been allowed to squeeze Amtrak during post-911 and the oil crisis ... but he was.

^Impressive. Denver would, I think, create the 1st all-new railroad electrification in this country since the Depression era... Logically, Cleveland should use electric EMU service over the West Shore commuter line. I mean, electrified entrance facilities into downtown, over the Red Line, as well as station/terminal facilities downtown and University Circle exist -- including a center storage track after U. Circle station... ... then again, you'd better not hint this too loud lest you want to send Joe Calabrese into a raging fit.

^Guys, while I appreciate your desire for the City and creativity, don't you think we want RTA to actually improve (and maybe someday) expand the Rapid, first, before we go building cutsie, side stuff like a pedway over the Red Line viaduct? ... esp given all the bridges over the Flats -- including the Det-Superior streetcar subway deck... just a thought.

I think it's more than Shaker; when RTA pulled the plug, Beachwood decided to move away from trying to accommodate Green Line expansion. As for the Blue Line you're saying this: Jacobs has a rail line that could be extended to his development, but he'd rather not construct the development for high density that would best support it... Meanwhile, on the West Side, we have a high-density, faux Main Street (Crocker Park) out in the middle of nowhere amdist sprawl and no rapid rail nearby... Sometimes, the lack of vision, cooperation or flat-out leadership in this region makes you want to pull your hair out.

Nice shots. I've always liked Berea and the B-W campus, esp being so close to Cleveland. Campus buildings look a lot like Oberlin's. Same architects?

Btw, has anyone heard anything about the E.120 station relocation proposal? An RFQ from RTA went out sometime last year, but things have gone quiet. Also, the proposal to finally redevelop the Triangle at U. Circle, where a new station would serve, has gone quiet, too, aside from the fact that the building at the Triangle where MOCA's supposed to relocate has been vacated. Silence is never good with major projects in this town. Any updates re both these would be appreciated...

Wow, that's nearly 40 years ago and, yet, we're still struggling to get at least some TOD even at existing stations. Urbanlife raises an interesting discussion and should be investigated by RTA. On the East Side, some community group (I forget) suggested when (if?) E. 120 is finally relocated closer to Little Italy that a new station be built at Lakeview, in E. Cleve; where that empty factory was demolished a few years ago. I believe the Vans, who planned the Red Line, called for a station at Mayflield L.Italy and Lakeview -- is this "Back to the Future?" Ironic Norm Krumholz and the Green Line/I-271 extension should arise in back-to-back posts, for he led the charge to squelch the project, which called for a Mode Mixer parking lot connecting to I-271 (why spend $Millions to serve "fat cats" I believe he said). Not a bad guy politically but, but is staunchly anti-rail -- I think this extension is now off the radar in favor of the Blue-Line/I-271 proposal. In the 30 intervening years, the Shaker/Richmond Rd/271 area remains noncommercial; rezoning, now, would be problematic.

Nice shots... Of the cities you visited out west, I've only been to Seattle, and I loved it -- and that was 10 years ago... I too am surprised by downtown Portland's seeming lack of life, given the eye-candy buildings and oh-so-hip rep. And we gripe about Cleveland'd downtown sometimes, but frankly, C-town is just as good or better -- ah, I don't feel so bad. ... btw, ... did the Space Needle influence The Jetsons or vice versa?

^^ as to the MM/CC website proposal... I guess I missed it. Glad to see the CVSR terminal has been incorporated into the plans (along with the prominence transit is playing in the proposal). I sure hope CVSR remains a key element. As to any possible future dual-propulsion commuter car, I guess the assumption is the current Red Line facilities would suffice -- assuming your innovative cross-Cuyahoga/connect from the east -- connection proposal isn't chosen.

Wow. Ask, and you shall receive... 'preciate it. ... I agree with the cheap startup option. Let's get the thing up on its feet & running, first, then we can dream. As you note (and have noted): the cheapest option is your original one: use 2nd-hand commuter equip for rush-hour runs from Lorain terminating at a transfer station at the Red Line's West Blvd. for the downtown or airport transfer -- works for me.

This sounds promising. MRN's short track record on E. 4th shows they possess a short learning curve for successful adaptive reuse projects -- I would never have predicted the resounding success E. 4th has achieved so far, and it isn't even finished (and is still hampered by the ECP mess on Euclid -- and yet, people are finding ways to get there to be a part of the excitement). As for MRN being too stretched (are they still teaming with Zaremba at U.Circle?), I wouldn't worry about that. After all, it's the banks that believe in them or they wouldn't be doing what they're doing and, I'm sure, the return on their investment plus equity built up on E. 4th has more than positioned them for this O.City investment. I just think we're a bit too used to Cleveland investors being conservative and too reticent to move without some kind of governmental hedge or incentive. A smaller guy like MRN with the means and aggressiveness kind of breaks our own limited paradigm...

{carrying this over from the Medical Merch mart threat to here where it's more appropriate} KJP, the CVSR and West Shore extension into MM/TC would be an excellent idea... I know we've discussed it before, but do you have any current thoughts on what technology, and routing would be best for West Shore (OK, I'm putting the cart before the (iron) horse, as it will, as I'm admittedly a bit giddy about Congress' alternative-analysis study approval -- though reduced -- for West Shore last week)... Diesel light rail (or heavy rail) converting to Red Line electric at West Blvd? or conventional passenger rail, preferably bi-level push-pull trains into a new station at North Coast? Obviously, as you seem to note, if we can land the MM at Tower City, that will make the former more attractive, although it wouldn't tie into a commuter rail network spawned by Ohio Hub going into North Coast. I guess, though, in the shorter term (pre-Ohio Hub) going into Tower City over the Rapid would be more attractive and, yes, if we could get CVSR, Tower City would become the NEO regional rail hub once again... can't sneeze at that.