clvlndr

goofy, surface-y article... and wouldn't the old Sohio/BP "Riverfests" be considered parties? Until the 90s, when BP merged w/ Amoco/pulled up stakes for Chicago, they were the biggest thing going in the Flats, annually.

Manyunk is definitely Pittsuburgh-like; in many ways, it reminds me of an old, European hill/mill town... ^I don't get it, ColDay. That R-6 commuter rail line, which is electrified and rapid transit-like, has hourly service most of the day even though its elevated tracks (clearly photo'ed in this nice spread) have a station right in the heart of this compact district. Meanwhile everybody gripes about parking, which is scarce, and nabe visitors are left to fend with the parking robber Barron's, who often charge more than in Center City, it's absurd... Public transit, while extensive in Philly, is often treated in as an afterthought... Indeed, one could argue Philly has more going for it than most any town that, yet, it trashes (you even see this from the graffiti and trash in and around buildings even in this nice neighborhood... ... and as for Philly's seeming insistence on the auto while often turning its back on its massive, high-speed rail network: as one local pundit once quipped: Philly is Europe that's desperately trying to be Houston.

^there are no silver bullets and the PD, which I often disagree with, makes that clear in its editorial. And yes, people like DaninDC very logically question the viability of convention centers as being comeback vehicles for distressed cities and the convention biz, in general, is rather stagnant... However, what we do know about this particular project is this: if it's funded, we put in place a narrow, yet potentially lucrative market: medical merchandize. We revitalize our empty, crumbling 13-story Grand Dame Higbees building with 500K sq ft of medical showroom/convention space -- sure, I'd love for a downtown dept store to comeback to Higbees, but the MM proposal sure beats a gigantic, empty building on Public Square. And, as Chris Kennedy correctly notes, w/o a hint of hyperbole, Cleveland is the medical capital of the nation, with CC and UH based here. We’d probably get a new hotel and/or a room expansion of the Renaissance. And, yes, we could pump life into somewhat moribund Tower City. And we can put a convention center at Tower City without the casino gambling that died at the ballot box last Nov. And, no, I don’t buy the idea that this project will discourage people and retail to stay indoors in Tower City. E. 4th, Gateway and the WHD are growing, esp E. 4th, and this is the traditional corridor of retail in this town – the iron is hot to reignite this corridor once again. And yes there are other potential uses for the current convention center space. There are no silver bullets to downtown business revitalization. But I’d rather hitch my wagon onto a couple viable horses like Chris Kennedy and Chicago’s Merchandize Mart than pop-off guys like Bob Stark, who talks a good game and has nothing (yet) to show for it-- and is now publically trashing other Cleveland developers -- like this is what we need. In a City like Cleveland, the status quo = death.

^the Rapid can take you closer to Stonebridge. If you can make good connections, esp during rush hour, you can transfer from the airport/Red line to the Waterfront line. From there, it's a 1 minute, 1 stop ride down to the Flats at the Settlers Landing stop ... this puts you considerably closer to Stonebridge and saves you from walking up or down the steep hill into the Flats... and the walk across the Center Street bridge of the Cuyahoga River (particularly on the north side of the bridge directly into Stonebridge) is among the most interesting and scenic in the city. If your SO has light luggage (what am I saying, we're talking about a woman!), the Settlers Landing rapid stop is only 5 mins from your door; maybe less.

Really surprised by the light buzz on this most important development. Guess since most UOers don't like FCE; don't like Ratner/Miller-Tower City; and want redev of the current underground site, they simply are sulking and don't want to talk about it... disappointing... very Cleveland.

It's very frustrating but we constantly run into the ideology wall here: as ridiculous as it sounds, too many people in this country think such trains are pseudo socialist as they potentially empower too many avg Joe's who don't own cars and, hence, ultimately won't travel in certain living/social circles w/o such state-sponsored mobility -- yeah, I know that's simplistic, but you get my drift. That "freedom vs. social engineering" conundrum continues to dash hopes for such projects here -- don't let anyone tell you that it's simply b/c of a lack of density, abundance of fuel (well, we now know that's a lie), etc... ... I sense Brian Williams is a bit to the right of center (I could be wrong, but...) so perhaps he wouldn't be the one to pose such hard questions but, at the very least, he covered the TGV story... maybe there's a slim ray of hope.

Amazing. Meanwhile, the United States is ... well, you know... btw, at what ground speed do humans get sick? Can trains like V-150 or Maglev counteract the centrifugal forces on the body their speed inflicts?

Welcome, JayPea, I agree with Peabody's comments about renting first to check out the area... I'm curious, though, why are you limiting yourselves to looking on the West Side of town? Any reason why the East Side hasn't come under your consideration? Seems like an area like Shaker Square would be ideal and you can find homes around $100K in the very decent Larchmere area. What's more, that area, as well as all of Shaker Sq, is not only trendy, old, very solid/steady (RE value-wise, crime-wise) and walkable, but highly accessible transit-wise, as two rapid transit lines (Blue and Green) serve the area very well and zip you downtown in 12/13 mins from the Shaker Sq stop. Houses, like most others of Cleveland, are largely wood frame, although a number are built of brick. The area was largely settled in the early 1900s, principally between World War I and the Depression. Most houses are modest, and there are a lot of 2-flat doubles in the Cleveland vernacular, but some are sizable on significant lots, and are great values given the neighborhood, which is hot. Many of the brick apartment and condos are Tudor and Gothic style and, overall, the old architecture in the area is among the most scenic in the county. On the other hand, Shaker Sq. has the highest concentration of apartments and condos inside Cleveland and despite living inside Cleveland, with its low taxes, in much of the area, you can send your kids (when you have them) to the highly competitive/renowned Shaker Heights School Dist (which is supported by among the highest taxes in the County). A couple new condo and townhouse projects have opened in recent years on Larchmere, which is the walking-scale antiques district of the East Side where there a number of shops and restaurants supplementing those of the Square, itself, a block to the south and east. Have you looked at Shaker Square/Larchmere? Might be your best bet given where you/your husband will be working and what you're looking for. What’s more, given your backgrounds in D.C, San Fran. and Chicago, Shaker Square would probably be very familiar given its diversity, density, old-style buildings and trendy atmosphere. Given the similarity, overall, for the prices you pay here, most consider Shaker Square an absolute steal; you should definitely check it out.

Too bad W. 117th's taking so long. On a good note, though, is it seems designers learned a lesson from Superior Station experience -- why take a station, elevated, with visible platforms from the street and close it in creating a steel & glass dungeon? ... W. 117 appears to have retained the more open platforms of its predecessor station.

^^^^it's interesting that Chicago's CTA's in it's worst crisis and, yet, there's still significant expansion talk (Dan Ryan-Red; Orange south of Midway, etc)... It's really gotten bad. Blue line's in terrible shape. It's gotten so slow with all the speed restrictions over corrupted track, for the 1st time in a while, I actually sought/preferred a lift to O'Hare this latest trip.

^agreed.

OK. Still seems odd that Cuy county's most densly populated area also (seemingly) the highest frequency at-grade RR crossings. Also, you mention a (Chinese) "wall", why couldn't the tracks be depressed into a narrow cut with frontage and sound barriers at the surface? This would be much narrower than either a freeway ditch or the Rapid + NS cut further to the east - I'm of course, presuming that a 2-track ROW would do the trick and that any transit proposed, would be over these 2 tracks, so there'd be no more need for additional space. Such could make the tracks and trains almost undetectable to all but the keenest eye and ear.

Disgusting! Throw those status quo bums out. Dems have both houses; 2008 hopefully will bring a Dem president. Amtrak, already, has been tabbed for more comfortable funding now the Dems are running Congress... A breath of fresh air from the Bushies' starve/privatize rubbish. :shoot: :whip:

Question: how come, with all the freeway projects undertaken worth billions, like the Innerbelt rebuild, how come there's been no talk about a grade separation program for NS tracks through Lakewood? I mean, with all the positive talk of commuter rail against the constant negativity of noise and danger with all the grade crossings throughout Lakewood, isn't this a program that's more than long past due?

pro'ly my fave post: Washington Good Points: Centre for US democrecy and goverment. Looks quite clean and well structured. Bad Points: Rising crime/murder rate. You might run into G W Bush.

Interesting. In a quick scan, it seems they really despise skyscrapers (ironic considering the eponymous website) and Chicago really is nothing special to some of them (as it is to Americans like me); though a number thought Chicago's "talls" are cool. They really seem put off by our cities' bland-ness and our ode to the auto and lousy mass transit -- no surprise there... Also, it's not surprising they really liked Boston, which is a very Euro looking city. For that reason, I'm disappointed Philly wasn't included; very Euro also (but dirty and nasty... on 2nd thought, maybe it's best they didn't, on 2nd consideration)... Yeah, the jingoistic/thin-skinned American posters were most annoying, esp considering an American poster, Edge25, asked the Euro's oppinion of US cities. What did they expect, the Euros kiss their asses? ... get a life people! Disgusting.

It's interesting that many other industrialized countries have state-owned and/or controlled railways where, around cities, were electrified for suburban commuter service -- like what occurred out east (and really almost exclusively in Philly and NYC, ... and the Illinois Central out of Chicago). Overall, though, it never got off the ground much in this country and the interurbans -- flimsy in structure and usually owned by small, local supported with meager or no freight service, were destroyed relatively easily by the auto and GM... It always seemed to me that electrification of railroads, with tunneling in downtown areas, made the most sense, economically... what's more, such systems can more easily be expanded to penetrate metro areas... The US, and I guess small-ish Canada, are kind of oddballs in not developing such systems.

No question, the SEPTA board is Rube Goldbergian in its set up; bizarre that 80+% users are in the city while the city has 13% rep on the board. Groups like All Aboard Ohio, along with transit-friendly pols like Sherrod Brown, give me hope. I just wish more neutral pols, like Frank Johnson, and Jane before him, could be educated as to the impact benefits transit can bring to the community-- and I really don't get Jane, having grown up along the Rapid in Shaker and currently residing w/in walking distance of both Blue and Green Line trains; her wonderful Lakefront Plan screamed for transit inclusion to focus high-density residential development, yet all her energies were focused on changing the Shoreway to into a Boulevard, a nice idea, but.. ... but until these pols are so inculcated, they're merely going to continue being a part of the "maintain it, not expand it" status quo...

NOTE: It’s interesting that, despite a different political structure, Philly’s gigantic rail network suffers from many of the negative issues Cleveland’s much smaller one has: i.e. short-term “maintenance” plans rather than improvement and expansion initiatives. It’s an American problem more so than being city specific… But how can we change it, realistically? Like I’ve long said, until Frank Johnson and other powerful pols learn (or are tacitly forced) to “buy in” to positive city-building aspects of transit, like TOD, don’t expect things to change anytime soon … even given the Democrat sweep in the last elections. http://www.philly.com/philly/columnists/20070325_The_Point__.html The Point | A direct route to a SEPTA crisisThe reasons for tepid transit support. By Mark Bowden » More photos Once more, SEPTA is on the ropes. It faces a $130 million budget deficit in the coming fiscal year, and unless the state finds a way to plug the hole, services will be cut and fares increased. For more information, click the above link. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The Point | For SEPTA's "Annual Service Plan 2007," go to: http://go.philly.com/septa2007 For the Delaware Valley Regional Planning Commission's report "Destination 2030 Long Range Plan," go to: http://www.dvrpc.org/LongRange.htm -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Mark Bowden is also national correspondent for the Atlantic Monthly. Contact him at [email protected].

Wow, interesting shot... this Crittendon Cutoff looks heavily built like an Eastern commuter rail line - or, closer to home, the famed South Shore Line Line still operating btw Chi-town and South Bend, Ind.

Nice pics. Nice thread... btw, I've read the Van Sweringen's ultimate plans were to have the various interurbans divert to their grade-separated Rapid ROWs to reach Terminal Tower @ Public Square rather than tediously/slowly creaking over city streets (usually behind streetcars). In particular, that the NOT&L would have been routed through the now defunct Kingsbury tunnels where the Red line connects with the Shaker (Blue & Green) lines -- imagine hopping Rapid cars for Akron and Canton from Blue/Green platforms (maybe we can capture some of that when/if the CVSR is extended to Tower City). Unfortunately, apparently for reasons in part noted by KJP, the interurbans were already financially shaky then ultimately taken down by GM and it's bus holding companies (like the infamous National City Lines)... The orphan Shaker lines -- then called the Cleveland Interurban RR passed through several hands before RTA and never hosted any other transit lines other than their own until CTS built the current Red Line. Damn shame, but obviously the Vans, despite their showiness, lacked capital to finish off the connection, too, as they shot their wad on Terminal Tower which, in part due to the Depression and decline of the passenger RR, saw their empire collapse before realization of the plan... Turns out, the Vans never even ponied up and bought the cars running on their Shaker Rapid during their lifetimes... they leased them for Cleveland Railway.

^sure thing.

Let me try this one more time…. Nowhere did I state Bob Stark owns anything on Public Square. I am fully aware that Ameritrust collapsed because Society Bank took over Ameritrust, some say by “greenmail” (I’m personally familiar with players in that scenario), making a 2nd super-tower bank building on the Square (along with what's now Key Bank which was completed around the time of Dick Jacob's Ameritrust site planned build) owned by the same bank superfluous, so it was not built even though the West Roadway land had been cleared around 1989-90 of the low-rise W. Roadway buildings that framed the NW quadrant of the Square. What I said is that a gaping 2 x 2 block space separates Public Sq and the WHD. This includes the very block Stark plans build on in his planned Phase 1 -- bounded by W.6th, W.3rd, Superior, and St. Clair which, as I understand it, held similar warehouses (to the ones we now celebrate) that could have been adaptively reused -- which also happens to be adjacent to Ameritrust site and whose empty space combined with the planned Stark site, quite obviously creates a negative emptiness that necessarily, visually and actually, cuts the WHD off from vertex of downtown Cleveland: Public Square -- from the center of the Square one has a clear, diagonal 3-block view Chamberlain/Johson-Jobbers Block on W. 6th.. unaceptable. So my clear implication, both here and elsewhere, is that someone, somehow, after nearly 20 years, needs to begin filling this vast, open superblock; and that Stark's promising, planned, high-density project on, what now, is 2-square blocks of surface parking, would at least begin do so… … That’s all I said. I hope that’s now clear to you, KJP.

It so happens his project would directly fill in the hole between Public Square and the WHD. What are you talking about?

I'll stick w/ Stark as long as I can; I so want to believe in this guy. We've got to get something going on this spot... it's been nearly 2 decades that's there's been this gaping 2 x 2 block hole separating our living room (Public Sq.) and our prime residential/entertainment district (WHD) after the Ameritrust Tower project fell apart... and that's ridiculous.