clvlndr

Let me be clear: I don't hate the Main Ave bridge. In fact, when the Flats thrived in its, er, recent, prior life, one could argue the big blue, girder-ed bridge added a certain urban romance to the waterfront... but that's gone now, as is the old concept of the Flats. I hate we let it slide, but we've got to let it go. The new Flats to some, myself included, will be, comparatively, more sterile; more processed and more like what you see in other thriving waterfront towns... In other words, it won't be as uniquely Cleveland as it used to be, and I say that knowing that, yes, there were a bunch of chains and, often, fly-by-night operations down there... ... But the new, Wolstein version, esp with such things as the Lighthouse Landing towers, promises to be much more solid, lasting and 24-7, as it will have a solid, high-density base of residents LIVING THERE and not just weekend warriors from Westlake, Strongsville, Mayfield and the like.... I thought the WCPN discussion, posted here a year or so ago, stated that in the current incarnation of Flats planning (including Price/Corna and, perhaps, Jacobs planning on the West Bank), the bridge was to come down to clear land for development, with West (ex-Shoreway) "boulevard" drivers being routed elsewhere -- Detroit-Superior, I thought, but I'm certainly not the Gospel on such things. If that's truly the case, I'm for moving on and getting rid of the thing for, really, it would serve no real useful purpose -- maybe, what you guys are mentioning, is a plan to keep the bridge but having it terminate into the WHD while the eastern Shoreway would end at E. 9th (as a freeway, at least) continuing a level route to W. 3rd... I'm not wedded to either proposal accept I'm all for ending the current version of the West Shoreway as the car/truck commuter route it now is... If we can, for once, turn the tables and kill at least one local freeway feeding into downtown Cleveland -- and maybe convert 1 or 2 people to transit commuting -- I am 4-square for it!!!!

^^Au contraire, MTS, I travel to NYC 3, 4 times each year; and always ride the sub (get all day pass)... I'm pretty sure 34th Penn Station has AC; there were others; and no, it was more than hot air they were blowing around, it was actually pretty cool... Went to a Mets game 2 years ago and was amazed how modernized the #7 line was (and how nice and upgraded -- not gentrified -- many of the black & Hispanic hoods were along the way - one where we stopped for dinner after the game-- TAKE THAT, JOHN ROCKER, YOU RACIST IDIOT!!!), which is all elevated once it passes under the East River although it terminates in a subway in Flushing which, now, is probably the biggest Asian-town in greater NYC -- it dwarfs the block or 2 they call "Chinatown" in Manhattan... I've had my issues over the years w/ MTA and filth and stuff, but you've got to give them their due -- it's a monster-sized system, but they are dedicated to making it better. I like the new cars and, replacing the tokens with farecards -- including the slick all-day pass -- as they did 7-8 years ago, is a miracle in itself. But as I said, there's no more fun system the Chicago's L, though it's not nearly as comprehensive... Its both fun to ride... and look at: strings of little cars zipping over streets and alleys btw buildings. There's none quite like it in the world.

^C'mon, NYC is not all that bad... Some stations, esp outside midtown, yes, I've seen a few rats; but they've spent millions (maybe billions) upgrading that system -- even air conditioning some stations to rescue passengers from those stifling NYC summer underground days. With the total comprehensiveness & convenience of MTA, I'll deal w/ a little grit... Boston has character, plus like NYC's subway, you can 'paak ya caaa in Baasten' ... since the T puts you within a block or 2 of anywhere you have to go (why the silly system/and city/ shut down after 12:30a, is beyond me).... If your travel is in/around downtown D.C. and selected close-in areas/burbs, you don't need a car in D.C. after 9p esp on Sat/Fri nights, where trains now run until 3a (Cleveland actually predated METRO with Fri/Sat late service during the summers ... until a jerk named Calabrese ended it shortly after he was hired since he'll do most anything to discourage rail usage in this town)-- passenger convenience, (even helping keep people safe by some Flats/Warehouse Dist party drunks off the road) be damned!! Thanks, JoeC, you're a peach.

Your right, MTS, I recall such 'storm' storage w/ blue/green cars, also. Once it was so bad, I think, they also stored some Red Line cars in the airport subway at night.

^I'll also put in a vote for Boston's T: comprehensive, esp for such a small, compact city. Flaw? Stations kinda ratty. Green Line, too congested (train-wise) and slow. Also, relocation of Orange Line El pulled service too far away from Boston's central-south corridor along Washington Street (where, egad, BRT was installed to satisfy steamed commuters). It now duplicates the Green Line too much.

I'd have to say New York's got to be best: most coverage plus the express service is the only one of extensive systems around the world. Its flaws? No connection to Staten Island. Weak up the lower east side of Manhattan. Need a few more crosstown lines (not just in midtown). ... Most fun system? that's easy: the Chicago L.

^In DC, the Metro station didn't move, but the airport was rebuilt with with it's main USAir (if I recal) terminal right at the station. A portion of the old airport is visible which is where the old entrance was and it is several blocks away from the Metro station, which I suspect was built there b/c it new of National Airport's plans... In addition to the Georgetown flaw in DC Metro, I also think it covers Capital Hill very poorly... It would have also been nice to have gone up the throat of centera/NW DC up the 16th street cooridor directly past Adams-Morgan which, now, is one of DC's hottest nabes.

^If you're talking about the Arhaus/(new) Watermark block, I agree... But stuff like the vacant Odeon, the hideous old Hooters building and that club at the old Kaos could kiss the wrecking ball for all I care, it's junk occupying key lots. I'm not in love with BW3, accept that it does draw considerable biz and is reasonably fun place -- so it can stay... Wolstein's development could meet rejuvenated building south of the MAB and supplement the handsome residential buildings (Crittendon towers; River Bend; the townhouses). btw, Jane's plan called for the ugly Main Ave Bridge to be torn down in the Lakefront project, which seems to be closer to fruition west of the river -- any idea how soon that can happen?... It certainly would open up both sides of the Flats and get rid of all the shadows.

^Bush/FRA: American passenger rail = Joe Calabrese:Cleveland Transit

Is it true that NYC's is the only mega rapid-rail system in the world with extensive express + local service? (I don't mean the one line Chicago's has, for instance) ... I don't think London's or Paris' have it, do they? Maybe Tokyo...

Clvlndr...I sensed a ton of emotions in that letter, just the kind of thing we need to get better overall transportation options on an poppin' Actually, MTS, I tried to steer away from emotion and look at the problem realistically and theoretically; to look at TOD as bigger than just a transit-only issue -- which is where our problem begins imho. Those names are certainly places to start, but to me it begins and ends with Frank -- he's closest to the situation and has the biggest bully pulpit. Per Boreal's note: it's good to know Frank has a Sustainable Programs Mangager. The trick is, of course, is to get Mr. Watterson to function more than just in name only. Let's see if we can grab his ear; turn him on to this thread or its ideas, at least.

The fact no comprehensive TOD planning went into Dual Hub is indicative of how poorly it was planned (like sticking in a pointless/expensive Blue-Green line connection at E. 116 St) and why, ultimately, it failed... While I think RTA could do a lot more to encourage rider growth, I think TOD involves bigger issues. An offshoot of TOD is larger transit growth but I don't think it is necessarily the goal. It's about smart city planning and regional attractiveness. It's larger than RTA and why, while RTA can be involved on some level, this should be a Cleveland and regional initiative. JoeC talks about wanting TOD growth but, really, given his track record as being anti-rail, do you really want him to shepard something as important as TOD? Yeah, I know he's said: lets focus on the rail we have; but come on, do you buy that? Especially given all the things MapBoy talks about that have happened under Calabrese's regime to piss rail riders off -- the rail service cuts, the squeezing passengers on too few cars -- 2 on the Red, one-car trains on blue/green (even during a number of big events); that shutting down all-night service on New Year's eve, ending summertime, late-night rail service on Friday and Sat nights, etc, etc. He's has no investment in the future of rail in this town -- he in fact is totally against ANY expansion -- so really, isn't it foolish to even suggest he/his agency be in charge of TOD? TOD should be a Frank Jackson/City of Cleveland initiative. It's Frank's city that continues to build the Steelyards while watching speedy rail cars zip by mile-after-mile of highly developable land, particularly at stations... And while people here like to harp on the fact the Red Line lies next to freight rail and goes by many factories -- many derilect now -- it's beyond question that many more stations are either in or at the edges of very popular, high growth/potential high growth areas. Examples: West Blvd/Cudell (Edgewater/West Edge), W. 65 (Detroit Shoreway), University Circle, E. 116, Puritas, Triskett, E. 120, Flats East Bank... and many others. What people don't seem to understand is that TOD is NOT just about transit users; it's about everybody. People like high-density, walkable neighborhoods. Funny thing is, when they are built, I'd bet the majority of people who arive are by auto; yet the very existence of a TOD is owed to transit, usually rail, which allows it's population to suddenly enlarge exponentially -- giving patrons the option of not driving while, concomitantly, allowing businesses, therein, to thrive with the excitement of density... Every downtown of every major city, particularly older ones, like Cleveland and Cincy, and others that grew prior to WWII, is essentially a TOD... Now, of course, in places like Detroit where the once good streetcar and commuter rail service disappeared over time, downtown has lapsed into serious decay and only is recovering, today, on a very limited basis -- fact is, no mater how much Detroit leaders posture about how much better downtown is, it will NEVER be totally healed until leaders finally make the hard choice and address its lack of rail transit access... I visited LA on biz in the early 90s and was shocked that the 2nd largest city in America had a downtown that was actually smaller than Cleveland's. How could this be? A major answer: transit. Now, with the expansion of light, heavy and commuter rail, a new LA has emerged. Don’t get me wrong, it still is largely a far flung, suburban-like, sprawl metro area. But that’s a-changing. Downtown has grown with more office and high-rise residential growth. Likewise, TOD’s, esp. more high-density condos, apts and mixed use development is springing up all over the now 80-some mile rapid rail network; and is even popping up along the 400-mile MetroLink commuter rail network. The average Joe likes this new LA, but isn’t sure why. He certainly isn’t, more than likely, oriented toward hopping a rail car to get to these exciting neighborhoods, yet he’s attracted nonetheless. Paul Weyrich is a very odd man: an uber-conservative guru who LOVES mass transit. He’s written many articles noting how he’s an oddball among his right-wing pals. But he’s argued vociferously: how can you be in favor of a free market society when auto-only clogged cities slow down commerce significantly. Texas A&M University released a study a few years ago highlighting, city-by-city, how many business hours were lost due to managers/workers being stuck in traffic. Look at Washington (DaninDC will love this); it went from being a backwater, Southern burg in the 60s, to being one of the hottest growth cities on the continent; much of this attributable to the smart-growth around transit stations. Indeed, DC with its mini-Metro cities developed around transit stations practically wrote the American book on modern TOD in the auto age. So why not Cleveland? Frank Jackson is getting high praise for thinking out of the box on his regional initiative, particularly the anti-biz stealing/water rate deal he's working with the burbs. TOD is also a key area where we must think outside the box. It’s Frank’s city that’s suffering, not Joe Calabrese’s (every night JoeC hops in his car and heads to sprawl-burb Westlake to lay his head —what stake does he really have in TOD?) It’s Frank Jackson and the City of Cleveland who need to take the lead in TOD. Down business and retail is suffering. While apartments are growing, more could be done. Finally, it seems (if he can get out of court) Scott Wolstein gets it and is building a massive TOD adjacent to the most hated transit operation in the city: the Waterfront Line no one here believes has any worth. In this City one of our biggest problems is the balkanized/fiefdom approach we have towards planning and growth. We clearly see it with our Growth Association (or whatever it’s called here). We’re in a canoe and everyone’s oar-ing in diff directions. A number of City councilman get it w/r to TOD: Matt Zone – who championed the W. 65 station/Eco City rebuild/build is one. Joe Cimperman is another. Frank needs to get on board. It’s HIS city. RTA is THE rail transit line potentially has the most impact on that city growth. It’s time for Frank to come out of the box. (forget for a moment, why Frank isn’t cheerleading rail expansion – that’s a topic for another day). It’s easy to do the wrong thing growth wise, here. The Steelyards, Legacy Villages, Croker Park’s, Eton’s of the world pop up quickly like acne… TOD, on the other hand, has been tedious and iffy. Look at Wolstein’s struggles. Look at the pain-staking, on-again/off again Triangle at U. Circle. Look at the fallow lands that sit next to W. Blvd’s Red Line Station while we only TALK about growth there – Chicle is nice, but small compared to what needs to be done, there. This is long, I know, but in the end, I hope we realize that bigger thinking needs to be done, here, and we must look past RTA to the bigger stakeholder this initiative: Cleveland, particularly, and its close-in burbs, secondarily.

How did we allow such a loser to head such an important local operation as RTA? I shake my head at this city sometimes.

I've said it before, but it strikes me as incredible our Cuyahoga County and RTA (currently, at least) could be so intransigent and backwards on rail issues like this, while our satellite counties want it more, are moving forward. Look at Akron Metro RTA with the cvsr Canton extension and Sherrod Brown's support for a multimodal, rail-based cvsr/Amtrak/bus terminal. Lorain has been pushing for the Lorain commuter like while JoeC, Kucinich and, sometimes, various western Cuyahoga County burbs have been sticks in the mud (though Betty Blair's been a contra breath of fresh air)... At least Cleveland City council did the right thing with their resolution, and the other JoeC (Cimperman) has been a vocal supporter, among others. Something's gotta give; Cleveland may finally catch up to the 21st century, transit-wise.

^MTS, I couldn't be happier if you were right. But you've got to admit, the uncertainty is unnerving;... and from the looks of the Pesht link, I'm not the only one...

I've been quietly suspicious of Stark. For all his talk, he's still a little guy, comparatively. He needs help. I wish he'd take a smaller approach rather than this mega, let's-makeover-downtown talk. Croker Park is a huge success – not the kind of project I think is good for Cleveland – but it’s been good for Stark.. But he’s still not big enough to talk on the scale he’s talking. He needs partnerships to build on the scale he’s talking; and he’s all over the place with no commitment (he apparently is closest to getting something going in the Shaker TOD at Van Aken-Warrensville; at least the last I know about ½ year ago)... Look at MRN—a retired business man from Shaker who loves Cleveland, moved downtown and got his family into a strategic RE concern. MRN, too, were little guys and they started small, one 4th street parcel at a time. And now look at 4th Street. It's thriving. Almost as lively and more diverse than the popular WHD... really, Cleveland's got to be more proactive in getting something going in this Pesht area. Stark would be great, but if he's not up to it, FIND SOMEONE WHO IS. Guys are doing stuff. Zaremba. Price/Corna. MRN. Wolstein's just about to get going once the bogus eminent domain court challenge of the dirty dozen is rightfully defeated so Scott can get going ... But, as far as I know (correct me if I’m wrong), Stark doesn’t even have a hard proposal for downtown either before Council or the Planning Commission. It’s really beginning to be a bit much. ... Too much is going on downtown for Cleveland to keep waiting ad infinitum for Bob Stark. It's time he either you-know-what or get off the pot.

I don't like Steelyards. It's big box. It's isolated from neighborhoods and lacks, at present, even RTA. All it offers is some money in the tax coffers. That's about it. But it's negatives outweigh its positives. It has the potential to hurt whats already there. And why the hell are focusing so much energy building a suburban, anti-neighborhood/city people retail project when so little effort has been made to develop large-scale retail in downtown... What's more, the few big boxes that are somewhat convenient and exist in the neighborhoods, stand to be hurt. I've even taken the Rapid from downtown to Home Depot (its 3 blocks from the Red Line's W. 117 station) with ease -- a 10 minute ride; 11 tops. Does this new, people-unfriendly Steelyards Home Depot stand to deep-6 this convenient one? It makes no sense. We've done a lot of good things in Cleveland, esp downtown, but at times like these, I really don't get this town; often our priorities seem totally screwed up.

^ You might have a point... I'm pretty sure GeorgieV was instrumental in this and as far as his friends, well, ...

well, if there's any state government more dysfunctional than Ohio... it's Pennsylvania... Pennsy's bad, but I seriously beg to differ that it's more dysfunctional than Ohio, at least when it comes to transit and, even, roads ... At least, Pennyslvania, unlike Ohio (and practically every other North Central State) funds regional Amtrak routes -- Unlike Ohio, at least PA's 2 biggest cities are connected by rail to each other as well as their state capital, and this, despite the fact that all 3 cities are more distrant from each other and separated by vast mountain ranges than our 3 Cs in a relatively flat state... And as for highways: yes, PA had the I-78, 80 closure debacle last week (people trapped in their cars for over 24 w/ no food/bathroom/gas& heat)... yes, PA's interstates aren't always in the best shape... of course we have lovely ODOT that often (some say, usually) plows taxpayer $$ into useless expansion and rehab projects (i.e. trippling the TP lanes around Youngstown that are rarely even half filled to capacity) that line the pockets of political (as in Republican) contractor-cronies... ... So in NO WAY should we Ohioans go looking down our collective noses at any state; and certainly not at one that, at least, does have some semblance of state rail passenger network and passenger rail funding base.

I think this very reasonable rail proposal is an opportunity to expose JoeC and his absurdity. But it's up to individuals, like those of UO, to meet his arguments point-by-point and show how buses ARE NOT always an adequate substitute for rail simply because their cheap... If that were the case, New York would have an all bus transit system, right? Then again, it wouldn't be New York... at least, as we know it. Even Robert Moses, during the height and dawn of the auto age, was but only so successful.

Nice pics. Overall, I tend to think Cincy has the most picturesque big-city downtown in the state.

^OK, thanks for the info.

Sounds exciting. The museum, along with the Triangle project, in total, will finally pull the great U. Circle together as a retail and housing area bonding with the already world-class institutions. Question: I'm not quite sure where "lot 45" is and how these buildings will be situated. Also, am I to understand they want to build a condo tower on East Blvd on top of a new CIA building at the current location? How will that work? anyone got a map?

The Cleveland City Council Resolution is very nice. I'm just wondering, since it appears the reso supports a full study of the line, is this beyond the scope of the original "demonstration" project (as in experiment) using cheaper, 2nd hand equipment being sold at (or near) scrap rates by the likes of Chicago's Metra, Amtrak (engines) and the like? Can't the latter be more quickly implemented and be less prone to the naysayers -- like this new Rocky River councilman who seems like he's carrying the anti-rail torch for the deposed mayor -- than the more drawn out, Federal process?... just curious.

My sentiments exactly.