clvlndr

If I recall, NEOrail studies indicated that the ideal route, south to Akron-Canton, was via NS thru Hudson splitting near that depot. However, as this is the main frieght route out of Cleveland to the east and south, it was ditched as too expensive as rail capacity -- to carry the frieght and commuter traffic, would have to be expanded. Some are looking at the CVSR route, although it doesn't serve the suburban population centers like the original route did.

Well, I'm glad at least Dennis is tentatively on board. As we’ve all known (in this small community at least), and others are now seeing, commuter rail of this type was never at odds w/ the NS (freight) train limitation agreement Dennis brokered a decade ago. This whole episode is a perfect example how a lack of communication and understanding can set such a worthy, urban-building/friendly project like this back years; nearly a decade, in this case. I'm just glad sensible heads seem to be coming around.

Speaking of urban michigan... coming, Winter '06. http://www.urbanmichigan.com/ ... snappy intro.

I'm not saying office workers, alone would prop up retail. But the heavy losses erroded the retail base. First little stores started closing, then the big dept stores -- Halles in the early 80s, Mays, early 90s, Higbees/Dillards in 2000. It's a different downtown. Anyone who walked the downtown lunch crowds would know who much it has changed. The positive, of course, is that with residents, there's more after hours stuff going on whereas downtown, in the 70s and 80s, rolled up the sidewalks after 6p. As to Mayday's comment: tell me which big dept stores stay open, daily, more than 3 hours after 5p? ... quitting time. It's not just the workers; but having workers and energy add to the Wow! factor; synergy, retailers want to see when investing downtown -- and btw, it's not just Cleveland; aside from the 'hot' cities: NYC, Chicago, Boston, DC, SF and a few others, dept stores are pulling up stakes in downtowns at a rapid rate... I'm not saying it's impossible; I'm just saying, be realistic and look around at what's going on elsewhere.

I've never bought the argument that Tower City killed downtown by sucking everybody inside. Fact is, as the aforementioned FCM-backed project in San Fran shows, a great mall should enhance, not kill, a strong downtown retail district. I will say that Tower City probably ended up killing Higbees/Dillards b/c shoppers began seeing they could get a larger variety of stuff, often at discounts, in the many stores of TC than they could in the many departments of Dillards. Add to that the fact the Dillards, through their somewhat shoddy way they ran the downtown store, never won the revered place in the hearts of Clevelanders the place that Higbees did – it was flat out a higher quality store… There is not question that Ratner/FCM has lowered the ball on quality in Tower City since the place opened. Part of it was their doing, but part of the reason was the decline in downtown as a retail market that really began with the great business exodus that started in the 1980s (which I still pin some blame on Kucinich’s anti-business ranting when he was mayor; and I’m a staunch Democrat). Neiman-Marcus would have been crazy to go into downtown Cleveland when corp after corp was pulling up anchor, and we attached so much of our 90s excitement to Jacobs Field, the Flats and the Rock Hall (and how are those 3 institutions faring about now?)... But I think people here exaggerate how awful and ‘downtown killing’ Tower City really is. It’s a downtown mall, much more attractive than most and considerably more accessible than most attached to hotels and several office buildings. It could be better, for sure, but it’s not the source of all downtown’s problems as many here want to make it out to be… and, besides, that’s not really the issue anyway… What killed downtown retail is the sudden loss of office workers, to the burbs and the sunbelt, period. Add to that a weak residential downtown and, boom, you've got downtown Cleveland retail. Yes, downtown now, with upwards of 10K residents is the best in the Midwest outside Chicago, but it still has a ways to go before it can support the level of retail we'd all like to see. What you're really demanding is that people in the outer regions of Cleveland and the burbs to come in, en masse, to prop up downtown retail -- they won't do it; not with oodles of nearby malls with free parking... Right now, that group does come down for entertainment and restaurants, largely after business hours, and this is growing. Still, as much as I'd like to wish it was better, downtown streets like Euclid, 9th and Superior are relative ghost towns by weekday with trickles of foot traffic. This is why, as encouraging as it is to see the flashy new housing going in -- at Ave Dist, Stonebridge, WHD and elsewhere -- Frank, the Partnership (see, the powers that be) really need to be putting a full court press on getting business back downtown... I hope they're talking 24/7 to our superman Cavs owner, Dan Gilbert, to REALLY make Cleveland his home by moving 3,500K Quicken/Rock Financial jobs into downtown. That would be a huge boost. ... Also, we need to put down our differences about where the cc should go and support the FCM/Medical Merchandise Mart proposal that could really kick start business activity, esp in and around Public Sq. Jobs, jobs, jobs, is what downtown needs more than anything, right now.

I am hardly a UM guy. Though, comparing East Lansing to, say Ann Arbor, there is, well, no comparison. Why must East Lansing be compared to Ann Arbor -- an awesome college town, to be sure? Why can't East Lansing be viewed in it's own light; I thought the purpose of this thread was identifying cool areas of Michigan of which, in addition to the others listed to which I agree, I added East Lansing... And yes, the MSU campus is considered by most people with eyes, very beautiful. Your 'cattle prod' comment just sounded dismissive, air-headed and plain dumb, ... and you hardly strike me as a dumb individual... Oakland County, while it has its Bloomfields, nets out liberal (all those educated people really throw off the curve) and has gone Democrat for the last three or four presidential elections. Macomb Co. while chock full o' honkies, is getting blacker by the day. There positively is a statewide political divide. If you have a little spare time and a strong constitution, I direct you to http://www.mackinac.org. And West v. Southeast aside, Michigan is home to the #1 and #2 racially segregated metros in the country (Flint and Detroit, [dis]respectively). When I 1st made the comment about the 'Michigan pulling together aspect, I was really talking more in a collective mentality sense, particularly as it relates to sports: which one could argue is trivial, in the larger scheme of things. In Ohio, you can't get all of the state to pull for a Cleveland or Cincinnati team, or even Ohio State, on some levels (some here in Cleveland, consider a downstate school – I’m not one of them, though, as I’m a huge OSU fan). Plus, we clearly have the upstate/downstate divide here where downstate people hate Cleveland and Clevelanders (very misguided, of course) look down their noses on downstaters... As to the more serious stuff – yes, I do know parts of Oakland are extremely liberal (like Royal Oak, which is also large in population) and even streaky liberal, like Birmingham and Bloomfield, which has a lot of those rich crusading do-gooder whites; similar to those in Shaker Heights and Oak Park (outside Chicago) which both voluntarily bused white kids into black neighborhoods. Ann Arbor is similar to this and, of course, is solidly Dem. East Lansing (there I go comparing) is solidly Dem, too, but not quite as activist as is A2. As to the really serious stuff... there isn't a region, state, metro area or even city in the USA that's not largely divided along strict racial lines. Such is the ugly legacy of this generally otherwise great nation we live in. A few weeks ago, the Free Times did a cover story noting -- as we've known for some time -- that some of the greatest concentration of racial/religious hate groups is in places like Parma and Seven Hills; areas that are immediately adjacent to Cleveland, the epicenter of 'solid blue' NE Ohio. I do know, as you allude to, there's a serious anti-Detroit (read btw the lines "anti-Black) mentality in Michigan as you head west, north and south of the Motor City along I-94, I-96 and I-75, respectively. The overall point being, just as in Illinois, when your state has only one dominant major metropolitan area in a state as is the case in Michigan -- as opposed to having somewhat smaller but more numerous metro areas like in Ohio -- the state has the ability to, on a number of levels, mobilize and pull together (economically, sports-wise) as One... Here in Ohio, it really does seem, at times, like there are sub-Ohios, almost to the extent where parts of the state, like NEO, could secede and become their own states (like my Dem friends wanted NEO to do after the 2000 and '04 presidential elections, where we felt the rest of the state was so horribly out of touch in voting for clueless George).

Yeah, in the cattle prod sense. Little school bashing, eh? You a U-M guy? This comment makes little sense, it's a nice town and campus. Ahem, I present to you the scorched-earth political and worldview schism between minority, democrat Southeast MI and lilly-white, hard right arch conservative Western, MI, all simmering in the most toxic stew of fear and racism anywhere in the US. Aside from all that, MI is one big happy family. (See the Mansons). Actually, the 'minority' and 'democrat Southeast' begins and ends with Detroit, Dearborn and, a few other 'black suburbs' like, say, Inkster. Oakland and Macomb counties, directly to Detroit's north (across 8-Mile Rd) are very conservative.

-- Detroit (Greektown, New Center/Woodward/Mexican Town -- plus gorgeous homes/mansions in the Palmer Woods part of the City) -- Royal Oak: one of the hipper, cooler active (ped-oriented) areas in the state; very gay-friendly, too. -- Birmingham; shares similarities to Royal Oak, but much, much more preppy and, really, too far from Detroit. -- Lansing's very boring, but East Lansing's pretty nice -- MSU's campus is stunningly gorgeous. NOTE: because it's only got one mega metro area, Michigan pulls together as One State much more than Ohio, which is very balkanized.

I'm hoping if the ruling against the adversaries is decisive, they'll give up the ghost facing long odds and legal fees for any appeal. Plus, at some point, with all the progress, I'm gambling that these guys are not going to want to bear the public shame as being greedy obstructionists (of course, since they've gone this far, these guys are w/o shame anyway).

^Does the Red Line have any such seat in the rear car, or is this blocked by luggage racks? I'm pretty sure the front is taken up entirely by the motorman.

Doan Brook owner Donald Gest said his company is buying from University Circle Inc. about a half-acre on East 118th Street across from Case’s Village at 115, which is a new apartment-style dormitory campus for students. Sounds great.. I just can't picture the exact location.... This just reinforces my new theme: we simply can't keep ignoring cancer eating away at nextdoor neighbor East Cleveland lest it ruin all these exciting UC plans.

Discovery also can have the effect of speeding up or even circumventing trial, in some instances. It's kind of like high stakes poker... The game is: how much evidence can we get, from the other guys, on the record so as to hone our strategy... if, say, you can get some key (pro) documentary evidence in through requests for docs along with interrogatories, then build on them through witness depositions (much more flexible and free-wheeling than in-court testimony) based on what is or isn't in those docs, you can keep that piece of evidence out of trial; or you can settle (or convince your opponent to do so) based on what's gleaned in discovery. Sometimes you don't want to lay down too much of your hand, strategy-wise... sometimes you do, in hopes they may feel the pressure (at least from their client) to settle and, hence, free up the docket .... In any event, a good judge wants to stay on top of things to see whether or not he feels either you or the other guy is wasting his time and (taxpayer) money by dragging a full case to trial... That's why this judge moved to consolidate -- a trial/court economy thing where all the issues could be killed with one stone.

^yes, wasn't the original proposal for a Verazzano Br link? Cost comparative-wise, wouldn't this still be, by far, the cheapest alternative?

^^ noozer, you threw me for a second; I thought it was Cleveland's RTA pushing for more funds... oh well.

^^ No question, this guy's going to shake things up. It's an exciting time downtown.

I'd welcome any of these, but I don't see any materializing in Pesht. It wouldn't make sense for a ground-up Macy's with an excellent, traditional dept-store space sitting empty in Higbee's (or, for that matter, May's a few doors down -- one of current Macy's predecessors). Target & Ikea are auto-dependent stores; hence their suburban-ish, big-box existence. The Warehouse district, happily, is more ped friendly than car friendly, esp in any projected build-out like Pesht. These stores could build parking garages, but I'm sure the thinking is more oriented toward residential parking as opposed to the huge number of parking spaces that would be needed for such retail stores.

^^Ugh, I agree, the Dulles metro line should be a non-starter. I was lving in the DC when there was hot talk about a DC-to-Baltimore Metro linkage... Makes no sense, urban rapid transit was not meant for such long distances -- heck, I think the 23-mile Shady Grove Red Line, w/ all its many stops into downtown DC is, itself, too long a rapid rail line.

Jennifer Granholm may not have all the Mitten State's economic answers (esp given the Ford & GM's near collapse state), but she has supported rail, esp a proposed Lansing to Detroit service and (I think Detroit area commuter rail)... Meanwhile, this DeVos character obviously has no clue at all... He needs to stick to throwing Amway parties.

Baker & Hostetler doesn't need to be near the courthouses; they're a large national corporate firm. B-H's young associates are the ones who go dash to the court houses while the senior associates and partners stay in the office manage, negotiate contracts and the like -- or hop planes to do the same in other cities... Keep in mind, Jones Day, one of the nation's largest law firms is HQ'd at North Point, about as far as you can get from courthouses while still being downtown... ... as for Flat's Offices, namely Wolstein's East Bank (formerly DFAS-planned) building, I'm getting a bit weary of all these planners and offices (most notably the County Commissioners) saying the Flats is too isolated; too far away, for their workers/businesses ... If that's the case, Wolstein might as well take the building off the drawing board because every business can beg off making the same claim... (once again) look at Stonebridge -- they have the important County Engineer's offices (among others) not only down in the Flats, but on the other side of the river, no less -- sure isn't hurting them. Yeah, sure, I'd love to see a lot of the empty buildings along Euclid and Superior filled with big tenants, but once again, our conservative nature is causing a good idea to potentially go for naught. I think Wolstein's EBank office building idea is a good one; it would definitely add to the Tennant mix and boost both retail and work at home types. Not to mention you've got both the Waterfront and the Rapid at your door.

^^ Sweet! ... and, yes, I agree, it was classy of Frank to bring Jane back and give her some spotlight. This did start under her... and if other such dormant projects climb off the drawing board -- ie, District Park -- Frank should, again, follow suit.

Shaker Square, Cleveland's premier transit-oriented neighborhood, which not mysteriously, remains the densest neighborhood within the City of Cleveland. Yup, 8Shades, this is correct -- I live in the hood and didn't even know it was the most populous nabe tract until I read the Cleveland Neighborhoods website and compared to other areas (I'd thought Edgewater-Cudell beat us, but it doesn't). The Square area, which includes Buckeye, Woodland/Larchmere and extends at least as far as E.116 (which includs the Fairwood community) contains around 31,000+ Cleveland's biggest, by far... Also, drawing a 2-mile circle using E. 118 and Shaker Blvd as the center point captures by far the city's largerst and densist population mass. Discussions of realigning E. 120th station to catalyze development opportunities in the University Circle Arts & Culture District and Little Italy. BTW, there's a blog out there where somebody suggests that, in moving E. 120 to LI, we're actually simultaneously cheating E. Cleve out of a station and suggested, in addition to the E. 120 relocation, RTA create a new station at Lakeview Ave next to the recently torn down massive factory building --which contains considerable TOD possibilities (although I'm sure there'd need to be a lot of brownfield cleanup there)... not a bad idea; and it dovetails into my beliefs that we've got to stop ignoring East Cleveland's problems lest they stymie the positive growth in adjacent Cleve neighborhoods.

^ this, plus the struggles with Wolstein in the Flats, the stagnation at W. 65 (after the nice EcoCity townhouse start) and the troubles with St. Luke's Pointe at E. 116 (which, even though nice, I still would have liked to have seen a more high-density building there rather than the cul-de-sac type suburban housing --and did I mention a small 1-story Social Security building was built across from the Rapid station where an empty gas station sat for years) indicates that we don't get the TOD thing here in Cleveland like they do in other cities. Our Rapid still continues to be shunned by developers and looked at, largely by them, as mover of those who can't afford cars -- a shame... so our rail remains this wonderful though largely untapped development asset... Yoo-hoo, could someone tap Frank Jackson on the shoulder and tell him TOD would be an excellent tool to spur both tax-generating office/retail plus intense residential growth along with excellent land use? He/his people have apparently hit the snooze button. ... Well, at least Shaker Heights -- the original home of the Rapid -- seems to get it, with developments at Lee-Avalon and Stark's Van Aken-Warrensville.

A refreshing relief from the constant dire/'scare' articles the PD's been featuring lately.

No question about it. Aparently something is going into May's old building, but it is still a huge blocking hulk which, sadly, cuts of the growing energy from E. 4th (and easterward) from the highly successful Fat Fish Blue @ Ontario & Prospect -- FFB is great but feels like an island development. We need much more neighborhood linkage in this town.

U. of Mich student/writer bashes minimization of Detroit, transit-wise [posted originally in the Michigan Daily] By Sam Butler 9/18/06 PrintEmail Article Tools Page 1 of 1 "I will build roads where jobs are and where jobs will be." That is the one of many deliberately ambiguous headers in Dick DeVos's "Economic Turnaround Plan" - and it scares the bejesus out of me. It is alarming for two reasons. First, it reveals Dick DeVos's commitment to building more roads. In his section entitled "Building a Transportation System that Encourages Job Growth," DeVos doesn't mention public transportation once. He rails against how much money we lose through gas prices and traffic congestion and yet proposes to solve these problems by building more efficient highways. I am among those who believe that bringing mass transportation to the more than five million people in the Metropolitan Detroit area is critical to revitalizing Michigan's economy. Detroit is one of only a handful of major cities without public transportation, and young Michiganians often cite this shortcoming when they leave for Chicago. Unfortunately, from the debilitated DARTA to the pathetic People Mover, mass transportation in Southeastern Michigan has become the frustrating Holy Grail of Michigan politics. Contrary to popular belief, the biggest opponents are not the automakers - they would love the added manufacturing work - but, as DeVos displays, Michigan's public officials. However, if Michigan were able to muster the necessary political and financial capital to create a mass transit system, where would it likely be built? Why, Grand Rapids of course. This brings us to the second part of why DeVos's statement is so frightening. Where does DeVos think jobs will be in the future if not where they are now? Although not explicitly stated, the Grand Rapids native would probably answer his hometown. After all, it is where the Amway heir's office is located and where more roads and public transit would make his commute a whole lot easier. In April, after some political brawling, Governor Granholm and the Republican leaders of the Legislature announced a major transportation package. The bill allows residents of Grand Rapids and Southeastern Michigan to vote to approve 25 year tax levies that would be spent on proposed mass transit projects in each of those areas. Such long-term millages are vital because local funds are required to gain access to the $114 million in federal funds that are earmarked for Michigan mass transit projects. Originally, the $114 million was meant to fund a light rail line between Ann Arbor and Detroit. However, these funds were hijacked by an entrenched Republican contingent in the State House that wanted those federal funds to go exclusively to a different Michigan city and its suburbs - yep, Grand Rapids. They passed a transportation bill that was thankfully vetoed by Governor Granholm last December precisely for its exclusion of Southeastern Michigan. I had the privilege of listening a state representative speak to a group of students recently. Most of us had just spent the summer commuting from Ann Arbor to Detroit, and the status of the rail line quickly dominated the conversation. He was surprisingly candid about the legislative fisticuffs and explained how there is a growing Republican notion in the state Legislature that Michigan's second-largest city should become the new linchpin of Michigan's economy and cultural identity. As the saying goes, that would be funny if it weren't so serious. Detroit is the center of Michigan's vitality, and strengthening the connection between Ann Arbor and Detroit would strengthen Michigan as a whole. Imagine being able get out of a class and hop on a train to a Tigers' game, or being able to drink at one of Detroit's many bars or casinos and safely come back home to campus while sufficiently inebriated to not remember how much money you lost. If both the Grand Rapids and Detroit areas passed transit millages, how the federal funds would be allocated between the two cities is still up in the air. Now call me cynical, but I don't foresee the two projects being able to share the funds nicely. My skepticism over the chances of either project being built aside, the troubling part of the debate is that it points to a larger right-wing mentality that any funds put towards revitalizing Detroit are wasted. DeVos's reluctance to pay attention to Detroit is one of the most important gubernatorial election issues that nobody is talking about. Southeastern Michigan had better gear up for an upcoming political fight over those federal funds. SEMCOG is busy with an alternative analysis, but it needs input on what kind of line from Ann Arbor to Detroit potential users would enjoy. As the campaign season revs up, we should express how willing we would be to visit downtown Detroit. I encourage students to contact the good people at Transit Riders United, a group at the forefront of this issue. We should let legislators and SEMCOG know that a rail line from Ann Arbor would help Detroit get back on the right track. Butler can be reached at [email protected].