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^It's very confusing to people. Coventry, the street, a fairly long street (about 3 miles) that cuts N-S through the western portions of Cleveland Heights and Shaker Heights. That Rapid station called "Coventry" is near the extreme soutern end of the street. Coventry Village, which is the hip, vibrant area most people have heard of, is made up of approx 3 blocks (plus the surrounding brownstone apartment building district) near the extreme northern end of Coventry the street in Cleveland Heights... Coventry Village, unfortunately, has no Rapid station immediately adjacent to it like Shaker Square, so if you get off at the Coventry Rapid stop thinking you're at the Village you've got about a 3 mile walk ahead of you (a very pleasant walk, mind you, past some of the nicest homes and parks in Greater Cleveland), but 3 miles, nonetheless... I get asked this all the time. Even though it would breach the Van Swernigen Brother's historic naming Shaker Rapid stations for streets, sometimes I think RTA should clear up the confusion by renaming Coventry station -- maybe Shaker Square-East would be better.

The Shaker Square Stop and the Drexmore Station (i'll could stretch it to three if I add Coventry station). ... actually, there are really 4 Shaker Sq area Rapid stations -- I'd count South Woodland which serves the Square area's SE blocks. This neighborhood is one of the most rail-accessible areas of the nation; NYC hoods, included!

^^ MyTwoSense and I 'bumped heads' in posting saying much of what I did -- quite obviously littlecloudyskye, Shaker Square-ians are passionate about our hood. (nice job MTS, well said :wave:) To us, it's urban heaven-on-earth... btw, Rapid trains generally reach Tower City in 13 minutes (despite the 14 minutes scheduled -- somewhere they snuck in a minute over the last year or so, I'm not sure why since little has changed) -- which varies a minute or 2 either way depending on the level of traffic/time of day. After the easy, indoor transfer, it's a one-stop, 2 minute ride (scenically over the Flats/Cuy river) to Ohio City -- even during non-rush hour, the wait for Red Line trains is never long.

That's not true at all; it's not that extreme -- trust me, I live near this area. It's very rare to 'hear gunfire' coming from South and West of Shaker Square, unless you're talking several miles from the Square. That's not to say there's no crime or no shootings -- it is the city, and yes, Buckeye is not as solid as Larchmere Blvd to the north, but as I said, your characterization is extreme. Littlecloudyskye, the Square and the areas near the Square have a separate security force. It's very safe. There are many more families and a mix of the elderly (we're talking dowagers; very well-heeled seniors) and much, much less panhandlers (who are shoo'ed along by security, storeowners) in Shaker Square than in Ohio City, which, as you know (esp from me) is a very, very nice in-city neighborhood. Remember, Shaker Square abuts Shaker Heights which, although SH has loss a tad of its luster over the last few decades, is still a very upper middle/upper class suburb with a very strong cop force -- and it's not uncommon seeing Shaker cops roll through the Square even though it's not technically w/in their jurisdiction. Also, the gigantic and architecturally gorgeous Tudor-Gothic, block-long Moreland Courts condo complex touches the northeastern quadrant of the square -- and just for context, the Moreland Courts are one of the most exclusive older condo complexes in all NE Ohio -- many famous Clevelanders have and still do live in the Courts; in the area (like Cleveland's most recent ex-Mayor, Jane Campbell). For all you seem to be looking for Littlecloudyskye, you can't go wrong at the Square -- you'd love it; many transplanted NYers do... Also, I can't emphasize enough the Square area is noted for its diversity, tolerance and openness toward all peoples of all races, religions, sex-orientation -- you name it... It is the close-minded who are not welcome here.

^^ BTW, I don't get Boston's "T" either. It's a magnificent rail system and, yet, it's policy on this makes the town feel very small town-ish. If you notice, the sidewalks tend to roll up in Beantown around the time the trains stop rolling. MADD should be attacking the T as well.

^Last New Year's Eve some drunkard ran into and smashed the RTA crossing gate in the Flats where the WL crosses Old River Road under the Red Line bridge... can it get any more prophetic and ironic than that? I've actually used the late night DC Metro on weekends, and its great; well patronized. Folks don't feel pressured to run home for that last train... Minneapolis should be applauded, as well... Why do we often seem so regressive in Cleveland (and we're the city that had rapid rail transit a half century before either of these two places!)?? MADD should be all over RTA on this. Where are they when you need them?

I'm in & out today and will check, but I'm sure I picked it up from another UO thread, as I mentioned. Obviously, I hope you're right and I'm wrong... But dude, chill out, get a life, it ain't that important.

Actually, you're dead wrong on this. I have read, elsewhere (in UO and on another site, I'll find & present it) of talk of demo'ing the Towers after Sec. 8 residents are relocated from the towers. It's a NATIONAL public housing initiative... And short of tearing these buildings down -- which are obviously solid -- are there plans for retrofitting them as I suggest? Just having them sit there empty, too, is unacceptable.

One of the 1st agenda's for Joe Calabrese after he was hired was to yank late night rail service which, during the Summer, went until 2am on Fri & Sat nights. It was mainly geared for the Flats/Waterfront line and, as we know, since then the Flats has gone into decline, esp the areas closest to the WL on the East Bank... But since then the Warehouse Dist and the emerging Gateway Dist are packing 'em in on weekend nights year around. Why can't we push for re-instituting the weekend expanded service year-round? Callous-brese also quickly yanked the all-night New Year's Eve rail service which had become something of an RTA tradition. Why? other than downright meanness and stupidity. Shouldn't we be trying to reduce drunken driving as much as possible? Wasn't this a great way to do so? I mean, am I wrong on this? If so, what can we do to fight to get these services put in place?

Speaking of DART, I read a year or so ago that because of the great success /public acceptance of DART, there are proposals to rebuild the downtown section as a subway -- as was originally planned -- as some believe the current surface/transit 'mall' could result in bottlenecks given the huge expansion of the system being planned/executed... Any more on this?

^^ I absolutely agree with blinker, no way should the towers be demo'd. I very much agree with HUD's emphasis on not segregating/warehousing the poor in towers like these and integrating them more amongst the rest of us -- but let's not throw away these valuable high-rises which happen to be solid buildings on prime RE. They could very easily be retrofitted for luxury apt/condo use, including the adding of balconies. I've seen it done in the east many times. Re-fitted, units in these buildings would be snapped up instantly. Riverview Towers have a comanding view of downtown and is situated right in the heart of one of Cleveland's hottest districts. Plus, buildiings of this type are rare, here -- outside of the Lakewood Gold Coast, I'll bet we have less than 10 true high-rise residential buildings anywhere in Greater Cleveland, and that includes Bratenahl and Euclid. We're not a high-rise city by nature. Why trash what could be a treasure? What's more, like what's planned for MOCA at the Triangle buildings at U. Circle, street-level retail can be built at the base of Riverview fronting on W. 25 which would have the effect of stretching the rather small (though very nice) retail district that currently exists. Can we puullleeeze stop this bass-ackward Cleveland policy of tearing down viable buildings for surface parking!? How can this particular absurd demolition be stopped: through CMHA, HUD/the Feds? Who ever it is, Joe Cimperman, OCDC, Mayor Jackson and whoever should get their asses in gear on this one.

^Chadoh21, I've asked the same Q a number of times -- viz the Prospect building (btw May's & Flannery's Restaurant/bar) to which no one has responded for some reason. Makes no sense to be still ripping down old buildings for -- ugh -- more surface parking with no hard plans to redevel it. And you know, in this town, how long surface lots just sit there for days while robber-baron parking sloths sit on them to miserly collect parking fees cheaply. I say, leave a derelict building standing until a suitable use can be found for it. As we've seen many times w/ buildings like Prospect Place (and the Huron and Osborne building, plus many, many in the WHD before them), a solid, boarded up, graffiti-ed hull has a much greater chance at being rehabbed than these shitty empty lots we keep maddeningly creating, if only for the fact that their currently ugliness, yet beautiful architecture, make them magnets for adaptive reuse -- won't we ever friggin' learn! Yeah, I've heard the (weak) excuse for the need for valet parking on E. 4th, but we tore a gaping hole in that, other wise, nicely shaping up block long district. Can somebody answer the Q: why?

Oh come now, mrnyc! Surely you don't expect rail-hater Joe Calabrese's RTA + the dofuses (dofi?) at NOACAction to actually come up with a comprehensive transit plan, do you? Let alone our do-nothing mayor ... Yeah, we Clevelanders who have a half a vision are going to have content ourselves with the current route-at-a-time proposal scheme hatched by, and designed to excite, grass-root folks who, in turn, motivate camera-hogging pols into, perhaps, getting off their asses to, in turn, get Calabrese interested, or at least, defensively propelled by his usual rear-guard protective mode to fend off those who may, like us, have insight into his lethargic, regressive posture towards transit and transit expansion (remember his behavior viz W. 65th EcoCity Villiage? typical)... Remember, mrnyc, this is no normal city we live in and/or take an interest in. Comprehensive transit planning, like cooperation regarding positive growth of any kind, are in very short supply in this town... Ugh!!

Just a small note on this map: I always thought the southern boundary for Ohio City went a few blocks south of Lorain to Monroe Ave. In that vein, I sure wish planners would give this area more attention for it seems everyone looks north from Lorain and the West Side Mkt despite the fact that some nice buildings and homes are to the south. This area seems like the forgotten Ohio City.

Until we address the social ills we have in this country, discussed elsewhere in other threads, we can forget about ever having such attractive rail links in the US of A. If you can't connect us as a people, mentally, how do you expect to do so physically?

Sometimes I think people on this board paint the evil "suburbanites with too broad a brush. That's a phony straw man (or woman). I don't recall anyone (certainly not me) ever saying suburbanites are 'evil'. What I rightfully said, though, is those who live outside the city and tear it down, verbally ("you'll get mugged if you travel downtown, use public trans, go to Tower City"... and the like) are spreading ignorance and/or perpetuating it by buying in to such comments when we know it isn't true. They prefer to live in those communities because they have kids and want good schools, enjoy a large lot and want to be close to where they work, among other reasons. To each's own, Htsguy. Everybody has a right to live where they want in this country per the 1st Amendment. But I don't see why your siblings have to live in the next county(ies) to enjoy those things. Why can't they find that inside the city -- Edgewater, Riverside Drive and Shaker Square, areas, to name a few offer that w/in Cleveland proper... You call yourself "Htsguy" -- I don't know if that means you're from there or live there -- but certainly you, yourself, know that the bulk of the Heights offers some of the optimal living conditions in the nation. While not pointing the finger at your sibs, it's almost as bad when people throw around the term "Inner ring suburbs" as though the whole encompassing area Cleveland + Shaker, Lakewood, Cleve Hts, U. Hts, etc, etc. were some big, dangerous ghetto. Living 25 to 30 miles away from a medium size central city like Cleveland mean going downtown, for them, is tantamount to a vacation for most people. Your siblings can't even catch a commuter bus from where they live downtown. And certainly, their taxes in no way support Cleveland or Cuyahoga county. Your siblings are not 'evil', but their living where they do creates evil for cities -- that is, it creates sprawl, destroys the mother city's tax base and spawns racial/political hegemony and discourages diversity and understanding -- I'm going to take a large leap of assumption and guess you/your sibs are Caucasian. I know Hudson and Bainbridge are 90% white and very conservative, politically, and usually that means living in places where an 'us against them' mentality exists; places where the Ann Coulters and Rush Limbaugh's of the world thrive and where trying to understand others withers and is looked upon as a weakness, both for the community and the nation and yada, yada, yada. I know nothing about Bainbridge, but know Hudson has a very historic and quaint downtown area -- the city is only 2 or 3 years younger than Cleveland, itself and CWRU's predecessor, Western Reserve College, was originally founded and housed there (where WR Academy is today). A nice place visit, certainly. Cities are the ultimate expression of human social cooperation. Unfortunately, in America we've bought into the (Republican and, ultimately, Libertarian) idea that "moving up" socially and economically connotes moving as far away from cities as you can get; and that moving away ultimately means the "freedom" to live and associate with those who live and think like you do. But isn't the survival of cities and, even, this (rapidly shrinking) planet, premised upon the idea that we humans need to interact and cooperate with those who look, think and possibly behave (in a legit, legal sense) different than do we? And isn't running away, to the next county in a medium-size metro area, diminishing the possibility of that survival and cooperation? And let's face it, while your sibs may pat themselves on the back (and in some small way should be applauded) for making the arduous (and it is) choice to 'come in' to town every now and again -- while others boast the years, decades they haven't been into town-- their actions in running so far away are contributing to the destruction of the mother city and its surrounding county. In addition to that, businesses that lure people to make such moves are doing no favors to our overall eco-system and survival by plowing under farm land and wilderness for cars and fumes and water/sewer sysems in regions that were not designed to handle it. Your sibs are not necessarily evil, but their actions perpetuate the evil of our cities' decline, esp those so-called rust belt cities like Cleveland that are trying to retool of the energy and ingenuity (yes, that festival has more of a purpose than fancy gadgets and artwork) of young, upwardly mobile professionals like undoubtedly your siblings.

wow. ghost town. nothing was open. we ended up walking back toward w.6th, and little was open there either-despite a fair # of people walking around. Nauti Mermaid, Map Room and WaterStreet Grill were, and as a result doing decent business. I am really hoping with more people moving into the e4th gateway area they will have more open for downtown residents. Yeah, this is always the case on Sunday's and holidays, and I just don't get it. It's the Podunk-y part of Cleveland still lurking and I'm glad more restaurants and other stores are fighting back. I have no idea why the biggest and (2 of) its most upscale restaurants like the Metropolitan and Blue Pointe are shuddered with stacked chairs on the street during these times -- very off-putting, esp for the hotel visitors who are looking for places to go. On the upswing, though, add to the heroes: Constantino's supermarket on W. 9th. They were not only open on Labor Day, but open with their new extended hours (til 10 p.m.). Good for them! Constantino's has been a God send for not only the WHD, but all of downtown (we ran into some Reserve Sq refugees who were griping their market was closed Labor Day). Constantino's is always bright 'n cheery -- very beautifully appointed -- and the outdoor seating area attracts a number of locals who want to chill, read, WiFi, you name it. This store has almost overnight helped convert the WHD from a mere entertainment district to an honest to God Chicago/NYC urban neighborhood. And I think that's why the restaurants that open late and during "dead times" are congregating around the W. 9th area.

The LeCharles Bentley injury - and subsequent center chase -- has seemed to cast a cloud over the entire preseason. And I'm sorry, I just am not buying Charlie Frye as a big time NFL QB; no way -- He looks like a scared kid. Didn't we learn our lesson? I think it's going to be Tim Couch all over again, and this time, with NO BACKUP whatsoever. I sure wish we'd have gone after Steve McNair -- who, despite his injuries, is a talented tough guy who's been to the Super Bowl and nearly injured one of the great SBowl comebacks. And we let Baltimore, of all teams, land him! I just don't like what I'm seeing, so far -- even though preseason doesn't amount to much, we look totally clueless. I'm very worried about our beloved Brownies and am really biding time for LeBron & the Boys.

But to some degree, we're in a bind because suburban people have very skewed opinions of downtown Cleveland. Things I've heard: *Be careful out there, I don't want you getting mugged (someone told me this after I took a walk downtown on my lunch break) *I avoid coming downtown at all costs because of the traffic (Uh, hello, you work in Beachwood, which has way more traffic than downtown) *Are you scared when you take the train? (my sister asked me this!) This is the problem because people like this bitch about Cleveland being lousy and boring and then they go to NYC or Chicago where they have urban shopping, and all of the sudden they love it. It doesn't occur to anyone that we could have the same thing here. Gah! You are so right, jamiec. I think these comments (w/ no offense meant to sis, cause I hear it in my own family) is due to plain ignorance. People refuse to come in town then play on the nasty 'rumors' of others who don't. Or they read the Plain Dealer, which can't play up city negativity fast enough. Coming downtown should be more of a positive, Big event not some kind of trip of peril seeking boredom some folks have in their minds. Don't laugh, but more and more, I'm finding Cleveland, esp downtown, to become more and more NYC/Chicago/Boston, etc-like every day. There are now 2 (count 'em, 2!) supermarkets, movie & live theaters, art houses, swanky hotels and restaurants gallore. And our downtown is very transit/ped oriented. We've been quite pleasantly surprised on 'slow days', like yesterday (and Mondays) that there's a comfortable buzz of pedestrians, joggers, tourists (yeah, we've got a few) and dog-walkers, esp in the Warehouse Dist. I'm really, though, pumped at all that's going on along E. 4th. The McGrory's rehab appears in full swing and, yes, they've finally put a Lola's sign out at long last-- (call it sLoWla's -- just in time for the winter season, but I guess better late than never!). Lower Euclid may actually grab a corner of the vitality it had 20-40 years ago and that bygone era. A few Qs: - what do they intend on doing with the Sincere 1st level? They've stripped it naked exposing the beams like some new construction -- poss a new restaurant -- will be built. (if I were a resident I may be a tad concerned having the building's lower extremeties exposed to any tom, dick or harry off the street, esp in these wacko times... 'nough said. -- I'm glad they finally spruced up the facade of May's a bit and finally torn away that God-awful scaffolding that blocked lower Prospect from Fat Fish Blue and Ontario/Tower City. What plans do they have for May's? Anything new? Some kind of retail and office should go in there. Hell, I'd even settle for a Target at this point. Anything but the vacant hulk that exists now. -- Why have they torn down the buildings surrounding the expanded Flannery's restaurant? What purpose does it serve only to allow more surface parking (so we want E. 4th to start looking like the WHD in that sense?). Isn't the density of old buildings what gives Gateway its charm? And wouldn't you rather have an old, empty derelict building sitting there for future rehab than an empty lot which, knowing Cleveland, may never get built upon? A great example is the solid frontage of older and newer buildings along Huron west of E. 9th. Its an attractive line of buildings in an area that's developing more and more foot-traffic all the time -- and I just don't mean on Indians/Cavs game days, either. -- finally, any word on 515 Euclid as regards the planned condo tower? Talk about finishing off the immediate neighborhood and give a serious NYC feel to the area, this would do it!

They're lovely and all - certainly not a "two bit duck pond", but when someone is talking about "lake access" north of I-480, there is only ONE Lake worth mentioning. Granted, we're not talking Edgewater Park or the Metor Headlands, which is where she's from. But if littlecloudysky + friend want to get their lake thing on, the Shaker Lakes more than fill the bill... "two bit duck pond"? wasn't that a quote from the infamous, wacko subway killer Albert S. Porter who wanted to put the Clark Freeway dead through the lakes? ... may he not rest in peace.

Welcome home, littlecloudysky. I too would vote for Shaker Square, my neck of the woods, for many of the advantages mentioned, especially the direct rail transit. It's a pretty trendy area, yet it's got more of a neighborhood feel than, say, a Coventry or an Ohio City, which attract, routinely, more people from around the region,... even tourists (you'll see Lolly the Trolley rolling through those hoods, often) than does Shaker Square/Larchmere (the latter being the premiere antiques strip in Cleveland). We're more laid back, yet still vital, in Shaker Sq. Another aspect it is incredibly diverse. You'll find wealthy dowagers rubbing shoulders with teen mall rat types to homies to home-less to Asians to Africans; all income levels and sexual orientations; from Shaker Hts/Shaker-like mansions to Sec. 8 tenements and ramshackle wood-frames (much more of the former and less of the latter, though), all w/in a 5-10 min walk of the Square. A couple comments on comments: 8shadesofGray - The one downside is that is not a lot of public lake access on the near east side. Excuse me? You ever heard of the Shaker Lakes? -- which are very much open to the public, along with picnic areas, biking and jogging trails all astride some of the most gorgeous old mansions in the region. Lower Shaker Lakes, is a 10-15 min walk from Shaker Square. The other Shaker Lakes, like Horeshoe Lake, are a little further out the Shaker Blvd (you can drive walk or even take the Rapid a few stops) and the faboulous Shaker Nature Center is just north of Shaker Blvd along South Park Drive... The S. Lakes may not be as extensive and campsite/picnic-y as the Metroparks, but they're pretty damn strong in their own right and probably just as (if not more, counting the mansions) beautiful. Also note, that residents in southern Cleveland Heights and Univ Hts as well as much of Beachwood are, too, w/in walking distance of Rapid Transit stations. I wouldn't recommend living in Beachwood, as much -- it's nice, but of the Heights burbs, its much more sprawlish/cul-de-sac-y/modern like Strongsville, Solon, Westlake and the other more distant burbs -- it's weird that its so near the classic older Heights areas. One other Heights note, because the eastern Appalachian plateau that forms the heights area drops off just beyond the I-271 perimeter into the sumptuous, woodsy/rural (and very wealthy) Chagrin Valley, the Heights is more compact with less sprawl than burbs to the West/South west part of town. And there's absolutely no industrial areas in the Heights; no freight rail main tracks or sidings of any kind... Overall, I think the (University) Circle-Heights area is pound for pound the most beautiful section of Ohio, period. We've also kept freeways to a minimum, too, which is how we like it... You should strongly consider Shaker Square. I've found easterners, esp from New York, really take to this area.

Here's a story as to why Joe C is starting to warm up to this idea... JoeC, poss on board w/ rail!? Break out the champagne! Joe goes to the Westlake park and ride to catch an express bus to downtown. I'm shocked. I'll have to climb off the guy's back... for a month or so, anyway, LOL.

What is now coming into better focus for the West Shore Corridor project is that we should avoid this federal process because it takes a long time, costs a lot of money and, more often than not, the chances are not good of winning the federal funding sweepstakes -- and for a measly 50 percent or less of the total price tag. Absolutely. Some may not like the RTA Waterfront Line, but it was executed and built in less than 2 years time, if I recall, because the City/State kept the Feds out. That seems to be the ticket, esp in a Bush Admin that can't see beyond highways and planes -- yes, there have been a number of transit new starts and projects during his tenure (many, though, in the can before he was elected in 2000), but my understanding is that cities had to jump through some unbelievable hoops that didn't exist under Clinton or Carter; and this, w/ limited/expensive oil and the Middle East in its worst crisis in my lifetime, certainly.. It sounds like you're on track esp in getting some of the hard-core intransigent west burb pols on board (what are giving them, Kool Aid?). Seriously though, it sounds like you've got a good handle on this and that some have been backed into a corner -- the logic corner -- and are giving in to this great idea that probably should have been built long ago. One other thing -- you mention the time lag. Well, what about the extent of study and even test runs that have been undertaking viz this corridor over the last decade? Doesn't that count for something?

A former U.S. transit administrator had bad news for local officials yesterday -- don't expect much federal money. * * * The push for a commuter line is alive and well, according to those who attended the meeting, but it could still be more than a decade before the rail line is established. Whoa! Time out. I'm I confused, here? Fed money? Decade to start? Wasn't the whole purpose of the Project Greenway Lorain-to-Cleve commuter rail to be able to implement the project quickly & cheaply ($13M) with hand-me-down commuter & Amtrak equipment on the existing line while serving as a demo to allow pols along the line to buy in w/ TOD-type devel to both protect the environment while promoting SmartGrowth? So what's all the above talk? Sounds to me like another Cleveland political mess a-brewing -- this region is hideous with major public works projects (witness county building, Interbelt reconstruction and convention center, to name a few-- and let's not even delve into history, w/ the infamous subway that was scuttled ). I thought the idea of limiting the feds and pol planners was what made this attractive. It seems the coalition of like-minded West Burb and other officials makes this attractive; esp from the standpoint of having them get out of the way ! ... esp Kucinich. One official who will be good in your corner is Hunter Morrison, smart, effective -- probably the most single individual directly responsible for the physical Renaissance downtown experienced in the 80s & 90s. The others? Good luck; Esp JoeC.

I've read that the Riverview tower, in the background, is scheduled for demolition. Too bad, in a way, b/c even though it's not a beautiful building and even though I applaud HUD's more enlightened anti-warehousing (the poor) approach, we don't have enough residential high rises in the city -- esp in the context of what Hope VI would have brought -- the original plan, I thought, was to incorporate Riverview into the plan and intergrate different income groups into the building. Now that the cliffs about the river are deemed unstable, I guess Riverview will have a date w/ the wrecking ball. Again: too bad. It sure would be nice if we'd replace Riverview with another high-rise, but I won't hold my breath. Cleveland just isn't into high-rise residential building on any significant scale sans the Gold Coast's quarter to 1/2 mile.