clvlndr

You may be right about the law, but there are still quite a number of grade crossing in town. I once rode in town on the Metra from Shamburg and was quite surprised by the number of grade crossing practically all the way into Union Station in the city. Also, don't forget the famous South Chicago branch of the old IC/Metra electric that has big, bi-level electric commuter cars trundling down the middle of 71st (?) street as though it were Shaker or Van Aken. Also, I know of at least one L line (Brown Line) that, toward its end, drops down onto street level, through the backyards and crosses a number of streets at level, exposing pedestrians to the live 3rd rail which, unlike other systems, Chicago's doesn't seem to cover for some reason. ... your comments about Cleveland's relative lack of historic passenger rail traffic is interesting. I guess the Vans were groundbreaking (no pun intended) in putting their rail terminal at the center of business district underground while developing air rights overhead. New York's the only other city I've seen do this. Most passenger terminals are at the periphery of their downtowns, some (Cincy, Baltimore, Detroit) weren't/aren't downtown at all... But from what I understand -- in accord w/ your comments -- the Vans blew in rolling the dice on passenger RRing in Cleveland in the late 20s; that plus the Depression cost them their empire -- and ultimately, their lives.

Hooray for Steve Litt!! He's my hero. :clap:

... but under White, we finally won the Hopkins lawsuit regarding airport expansion.

I agree w/ much of your comments. Where I differ is about Dennis. I think he really set Cleveland back. And it wasn't simply because of his ideas, which in some cases, put him ahead of his time (IE Muny light). But where I really think he needs to be, and has, been taken to task was his presentation. He was just so vitriolic that he created a terrible atmosphere for business and growth in this town, and there were ripple effects felt even after he left. I know, I have many insider/contacts who were at Sohio/BP, for one, who said the British were well aware of Dennis' antics and wanted to do everything to lay the groundwork for the company to pull up sakes here. I am also aware of others in business who simply chose to stay away. In the 70s/early 80s we were #3 in corp HQs in the country -- many people don't realize this... Sure, Dennis wasn't the only knucklehead -- his arch enemy Geo Forbes as council prez led the charge against United Airlines re gate fees that led to them pulling out of Hopkins entirely... But Dennis led the charge and was the national anti-biz symbol, and he was Cleveland's negative representative in this light way after he left office. btw, I like Dennis a whole heck of a lot better these days since he's "grown up" and gone to Congress -- I share a lot of his national/international political philosophies. At home, he was heroic in saving St. Michael's hosp (I sure wish Stephanie T-J had done the same for St. Lukes and/or Mt. Sinai on our side of town); of course, I think Dennis stance on the Lorain commuter line sucks; he's failing to show leadership on this esp in light of the soaring fuel prices.

^^Actually ColDay, I cheated: the Waterfront Line shots area actually the only ones in the thread that are not contemporary: they're from last Labor Day's Air Show (my lazy ass just got around to the tedious download/upload/download action needed for an urbanohio thread) -- Sherlock Holmes would detect the Browns parking sign when the Browns have yet to play a home game this season (and the way they're playing right now, well...) . But this just shows to go ya that big lakefront events beget traffic nightmares which beget heavy rail usage, even our supposedly puny Waterfront Line. Now, if we can get our local leaders to stop bickering and start developing along this ignored/unappreciated treasure, well ... don't get me started!

^ thanks... I think CIM, CIA and/or Case are using these fine old gems as student apartments. Not sure they've been extensively rehabbed, but they look in good shape. Its historic structures like these U. Circle can ill afford to lose (they've lost far too much already). Case should be applauded for melding them w/ the huge new dorm project and actually extending what was a dead-end E.116th street into the new dorm area.

I'm not a freight rail expert, but having grown up here and visited many other cities, even industrial ones, it appears Cleveland has a stellar system of freight lines in its city and metro area. We seem to have a well organized system (esp with that belt line that can divert traffic off much of the lake and thru downtown). We have a ton of lines that radiate from downtown -- a tribute, I guess, from our one-time prowess as a rail passenger hub (hopefully, we can recapture some of that w/ the new Amtrak plan). We also seem to have a lot more grade-separation, esp inside Cleveland, than other cities. Only Philadelphia, and, obviously, New York, from my observation, would best us in grade separation. Of course, those 2 towns also are the only ones w/ extensive electrified commuter rail systems utilizing most of that grade separation. Our wealth in such frieghtlines makes it easy to see why we opted to exploit them when we built the Rapid. I know the Rapid routing isn't perfect for a number of reasons, esp viz the Euclid corridor where a subway should have been built, but laying transit track in extant ROWs makes a lot of sense for a city of moderate size and density (the Rapid does serve or go near a lot of the city's key neighborhoods). The Van Sweringen's realized this early on when they built the 1st Rapid lines to Shaker and, in the process, completely segregated passenger rail through the new Union Terminal and off the lakefront -- the big fight during WWI among leaders, of course, was between the lakefront and Public Sq for our passenger terminal -- I'm certainly glad the Vans won. It's ironic, therefore, that a) the AMTRAK passenger station returned to the site where the grand Mall-crowning station would have stood and, b) today, there's a tug of war (carried over to this board) btw relocating the conv center from the lake to Public Square. On a side note, I sure hope a plan (noted in the Matt Zone thread) to relocate thru frieghts along the outer-belt line away from downtown and the Lake becomes a reality. Indeed, I don't see how the promising Amtrak Ohio Hub plan can become a reality with so many frieghts running through the proposed North Coast station area.

Hopefully it was just a side issue. Until POP becomes a reality, I wish RTA would just go-ahead and staff the friggin' Red Line stops (absent a few really light ones, ie E. 34, E. 79) from dawn till dusk, 7 days a week. I mean, is it really going to kill them salarywise, and if so, hire part-timers to do so (as in: no health bennie packages; a major cost) if RTA's so hard up. I really wish someone could do a cost analysis to show how much RTA would actually lose if they adopted such a plan... I bet I could re-route and terminate a bunch of useless gas-guzzling bus runs that could more than make up the difference. The goofy slow on-board paying just shows RTA doesn't treat its rail service as the jewel operation most Cleveland-sized cities would love to have. It's even more of an embarassment on the Airport Line to see luggage toting visitors to our town watch as drivers sit and tediously count coins (or watch them feed passes-- I notice our card readers are the slowest of any transit system I've seen) while the train isn't moving -- I've seen at stations where there's a flash crowd, it take over 10 minutes to get ever passenger on, paid and accounted for -- and don't let some family bring a bunch of kids, who half the drivers don't even know the proper fare scale and/or family 'plan' to account for them! And may, just maybe, passenger service would actually increase, if riders knew the Rapid really was rapid and not some grade-separated, slow Toonerville Trolley.

^yes & no. Yes, Voinovich started some public-private partnership activity, in particular in the groundbreaking Lexington Village housing project, the 1st sign of new life, housing-wise, in Hough since the riots. Yes, Mike alienated a lot of people. No, the P-P partnership attitude wasn't dead when Mike left office; indeed, it's still alive. No question Voinovich was desperately needed to turn things around after the disastrous Dennis days. While Voinovich certainly started growth, esp downtown, Mike got a lot of projects going/finished. I liken them to two MLB baseball pitchers: George was a set-up man; Mike, a closer. But I defy you name any mayoral era in Cleveland, since the 1920s, when Cleveland showed as much physical growth and promise as it did under White. No era/mayor comes close (and please, don't throw the 'he benefited from a strong economy' while, say, Jane didn't' argument -- as the WCPN blurb noted, Mike helped create the strong market while Jane (and so far, her successor) have done little to improve it). And most importantly under White, this town had something much, much greater than bricks 'n mortar: it had enthusiasm, excitement & pride as it hadn't had in 50+ years, and it hasn't had since. I remember one friend chimed -- with not total hyperbole -- that Cleveland, not Chicago, was the 'city that works.' Whether it was Gateway, or upgrading Ohio City (up to its growing self today), to Longwood, Beacon Square housing, to the R&RHOF (voinovich won it, but it stalled until Mike put a charge into leaders to get it finished)... we had victory after victory in this town for that brief window... Mike White wasn't the longest-serving mayor in Cleveland history for no reason; people understood a good thing when they saw it. Yes, he screwed himself with his personality and the Gray scandal... no doubt, if he hadn't shot himself in the foot in that manner, he'd likely still be serving today... Let's not rewrite history.

Great news noozer... what about my idea of linking the cvsr platform to Tower City via Stoke courthouse? ... doable?

^like, ah, what are you sayin'? ... 'preciate it. :-D

East Side, West Side, all around the town (and not in that order). Waterfront wet dream, or Calabrese nightmare? you decide Egad, 2-cars!? call the traffic guy into Big Joe's office after he's cleaned out his locker jazzin' it up at Johnny's on a warm Friday eve go west, young man... aw Heck(s)! let's check out Ohio City new/old OC in-fill at its best slow pace/small town livin' in Detroit-Shoreway ... and new townhouse/in-fill galore! the Bridge Ave corridor Mr. Old, meet Ms. New my fave D-S house meanwhile, over @ Case back east ... geez, there's goes the neighborhood! another Starbucks Victorian Cleveland, meet new Case ... in perfect harmony new Case housing = resuscitating a gem ... over and out.

rob, Chicago's skyscrapers are awesome (love MayDay's up-high looks), but I like to get down on street level, esp into the neighborhoods. That's where the real Chicago is in my book... glad you enjoyed.

I was wondering whether CVSR can access the Stokes Courthouse building from the Flats level where tracks would, apparently, dead end into the old B&O depot? This would save a lot of money compared to raising the tracks to the RTA Rapid's level to enter the old Eastern Portal. As it is projected, the CVSR tracks squeeze (along the parking roadway) btw Stokes and those Sherwin-Williams buildings down there at the crown of the Cuyahoga's Collision Bend. Once inside Stokes, commuters could access the passageway into Tower City toward Public Square. Others, who opt to move through the old/soon-to-be-revamped headhouse (which, btw, would be an ideal new HQ/nerve center for CVSR operations) could head to Settlers Landing and the RTA Waterfront Line for jobs in the Erieview area which is over a mile away from that location.

I'm a fan of neither ECP nor the current RTA admin, but I'm on their side with this one. The Clinic is clearly throwing its unwanted girth around where it shouldn't be. They could have been a team player, but they're clearly out for #1... so what else is new in Cleveland?

^the worrying about a lack of address for potential scofflaws sounds stupid and counterproductive. If that's the kind of piddling crap RTA's worried about, you can forget ever seeing POP in this town. Just another reason why progress so often alludes here in C-town.

Then there's this from the WCPN website: Social scientists have warned that core cities can act like black holes. If too much of the population spreads out to the suburbs, the city collapses and sucks down everything around it - including the suburbs. Cleveland seemed to be in that danger in the 1990s. But Mayor Mike White's administration began offering tax abatements to attract homeowners back to the city. Now developers are trying what was recently considered impossible: building new, profitable housing developments in the city. ideastream's Mark Urycki reports. There are a lot of White bashers on this forum, but even though I recognize his flaws, esp w/r to the budget and, yes, others will argue he was in Miller/Ratner's back pockets (he was also tight w/ Jacobs, too), but you can't deny the many, many things he did to stimulate growth in this town, like tax abatements -- downtown, and the thriving neighborhoods owe a whole heck of a lot to this man... When I came back to live here in the late 90s, I'd never in my life seen so much energy in Cleveland, esp downtown -- things were so upbeat. Things have slipped, but the synergy that came from that era still has kept momentum going forward.

Nice spread. Awesome closeup:

It seems Chicago is the city of choice for UrbanOhioers this summer, and why not? It’s everything anyone in a forum like this could want in a city, and it’s close by, to boot: just a 5 hour car ride (or hour flight – plus security time and an L ride) puts you dead in the Loop. So along w/ MayDay, MyTwoSense and others, here’s my Chi-town take: The mighty Harold Washington memorial library; as mighty as the man, himself, sheathed in a handsome Richardsonian Romanesque style echoing the buildings style that was the rage a century before this building was built (in the mid 1990s) inside the Hal ...and outside. Lattice entertain you. Sorry for the blur on the rushing-north Brown line L, but it gives an idea of the residential explosion at or near the Loop (River North, here) and well beyond… O Brother Chicago, can you spare us, in Cleveland, just have one of these high-rise babies, … please? oh well, Cleveland, guess it's nice to know that even the greatest of cities has problems with ugly surface parking in their trendy loft neighborhoods ah, yes... urbanis sumptuous! Mag Mile in English? ... $hop 'til you drop May be Ohio street, but definitely not Ohio ATTN: Tower City bashers who cringe at its Payless Shoes Source: here sits a Payless right in the heart of the Magnificent Mile… … smack dab next door to a Starbucks, no less. :-o Roosevelt Road/South Loop development BP oh how you forsaketh thee... or is that, we? Guess this stately joint speaks for itself -- awesome fish & marine (ie dolphin, penguin) exhibits inside, too, just too long a line in the sweltering late July heat, ugh!! Roosevelt Metra station. You’d think being the only electrified commuter railroad off the eastern seaboard, Metra wouldn’t have stations this dilapidated, and in the wonderful “Museum Campus” area on top of that. Oh well, southward ho! … to south Chicago, that is. The famed Museum of Science & Industry ...and the Hyde Park nabe Beauties like these are woven all through the Chicago architectural fabric Hyde Park echoes some of those of the North Shore 'hoods, such as Rogers Park Time to Metra back to the to the Loop to check out and head for de plane! De Plane! Metra? Metropolitan? … a little bit of gay Paris on the grand prairie. that's it, that's all! until we return again, ... and that can't come soon enough!

No friggin’ way should Stark, or anybody, even think about demolishing the Commodore Hotel. It’s an architectural gem and frames the intersection, along with the recently rehabbed, and lively, University East plaza across the street. Once the Commodore’s street-level shops are rehabbed, it will work perfectly for what the neighborhood needs: a high-density, pedestrian building. I wish somehow we could relocate the seniors who dominate this facility (to a new building elsewhere) so we can pump new life into the area. I like that Bob Stark is aggressive, but he talks a bit wild sometimes. His bold, bodacious ideas for Cleveland often comes with judicious use of the wrecking ball. In an interview last year about his ideas for downtown, he talked of leveling half the buildings down there including, if I’m not mistaken, in the Warehouse District. While we certainly need growth, we have too many historic treasures that no one, regardless of how fresh and rich they may be, should be allowed to lay to waste. Stark is good, but he must be held in check.

Oh yeah, we've heard about the massive Wolstein, Jeff Jacobs (plus I forget the other playa) casino, retail (hotel?) development IF Ohio passes the casino vote. That's a big if. If it flies, we could see a massive development that could sweep to the East side and get development pumping even if Wolstein fails -- but, of course, Wolstein's failure would set us back several years as an entirely new plan would have to be developed.

My guess would be: No. Despite the contentious relationship btw Shaia and Wolstein, fact is the Lighthouse is attempting to piggyback on Wolstein's success. If Wolstein's shops and retail and high-density residential development along the river are suddenly removed, what motivation would people have to rent in a high-rise condo that is inland surrounded by the gravel and dust of the Port Auth, the sleaze Larry Flynt's Hustler club and the crumbling, abandoned Old River Road warehouse/former clubs regardless of how attractive the Lighthouse buildings are, themselves? And given the tight pre-sales/loan formula that is utilized by local banks, it is doubtful that construction would commence if the market suddenly turns sluggish. If Wolstein fails, Shaia's project dies too... and then we're stuck with nothing. Cimperman's 'death spiral' comments may be strong, but Wolstein's (and hence Shaia's) failure would be an extreme blow to the Flats. A half-of Flats -- West Bank, only-- won't fly despite Stonebridge's amazing growth -- that one project can't carry the whole area. And let's not delude ourselves that the West Bank is all that healthy, either. With the quiet closing of Riverwalk Cafe, if I'm not mistaken, we're down to just one river-level, sit-down Flats eatery on either side of the river: Shooters; and from all I'm hearing, Shooter's is on the brink of closure, itself; that this summer may be its last hurrah. I sure hope not, but what restauranters are finding is the charm of sitting along the river has been greatly diminished since West Bank diners are sitting facing a bunch of dilapidated warehouses across the riv -- no fun!

Yikes!!!!... well, you could walk away from it, so it had to be a good landing.

That's a true assessment, there's a feeling of greater safety standing out in the open on a platform on a bridge... Funny, RTA had that concept going for the new Superior station in E. Cleve -- which sits on a Rapid bridge over Superior, but then blew it by enclosing the new platform in a small building thus negating the 'safety' feeling. The last I've seen of this station, the large glass panels facing off the bridge toward the Euclid-Superior intersection have been removed. I wonder if this is part of the reason why...

That's a nice looking E. 55 station replacement -- the curved lines housing the platform stairwell (btw, will it have an escalator?) make it look kinda like the Triskett Station built a couple years ago. As pleased as I am w/ such a new station, doesn't it seem a tad elaborate (read: expensive) for such a lightly used station location? Given the immediate area is low/mod income and hemmed in by the I-490 stub and many industrial lots, I don't see ridership growing dramatically even w/ the new station... But hey, more power to RTA on this one.