clvlndr

There were other stations the Vans built that CTS ignored, including Buckeye-Woodland and Lakeview Rd. Obviously, given the extreme population density of Little Italy -- my understanding is, it's the dense-ist nabe inside Cleveland -- the Mayfield Rd one would have had the greatest walk up traffic of any station (maybe Shaker Square would top it). A book I read years ago said CTS cut a deal with a private bus company operating on Mayfield not to build a station there -- hence, we have out-of-the way Euclid-E.120 where the Vans had not built a station.

I'm actually of a mind that a location closer to the current one, maybe a few hundred feet to the SW toward Mayfield, would be better. The Euclid E.118th area's that much better, now activity-wise. I'd get rid of that nursery at Euclid-E.118 to have a clear path to the station. Problem is, though, is the 4-track (6-track wide) RR right of way you mention as the Rapid's on the east side of this ROW... To my knowledge, only Puritas has a Rapid passenger tunnel that goes under an active RR ROW... but it can be done. ... that said, the ideal location probably is still over or adjacent to Mayfield. Incidental, the boarded up underside of the Rapid bridge there is where the Van Sweringens built stairs up to a never-built station there.

I lived in Philly for 5 years and loved it... For entertainment, you may want to check out: Warmdaddy's (Front & Market, Old City) for blues; Ortleib's Jazz Haus (3rd & Poplar, Northern Liberties) for bee-bop jazz Chris's and Zanzibar Blue -- for more jazz Trocadero or the Electric Factory, Rock Walnut Street (btw Broad & Rittenhouse Sq) for high end shopping; eating; loads of foot traffic at all hours during the day until 1a. Franklin Institute: 20th & Ben Franklin Parkway: for all kinds of science, natural history, planetarium and an IMAX theatre (Superman Returns was playing there a few weeks ago). Hop a Chestnut Hill train to the end of (either, R7, R8) line to experience old style cobblestone suburban shopping and eating (although, technically, Chestnut Hill is in the City limits, it FEELS very suburban, old money... And then, back in Center City, if you want a Jamaican eating treat, try the famed Jamaican Jerk Hut (featured in it's unaltered form in the recent movie "In Her Shoes")... ... but this is only scratching the surface. Philly is LOADED w/ stuff to do...

About the E.120 Rapid station, when are they (RTA, Little Italy) going to stop talking and start building? You'd like to think that the racial element is no longer motivating foot-dragging (as in Little Italy doesn't want a bunch of E. Cleveland blacks hopping off the Rapid in their neighborhood), so what's the problem? A parking garage was mentioned before as a sticking point, but why? I don't see why there should even be parking at this station; it's a traditional urban rapid transit site in a fairly dense residential/commercial area -- whose riders will be walk ups and bus transfers (assuming the #9 Mayfield is routed there). Really, with the growth along Euclid with the new Case dorms, Little Italy is less a factor than before, and RTA could up the traffic count from around 100 people to in the thousands by simply building new station at or just adjacent to the current site. It was known the Euclid-E.120on was poorly located since, apparently, back in the old CTS days, and talk of relocating has been going on for over 2 decades... when are they going to do anything but continuing the endless search to reconcile divergin issues? Or is the supposed issue reconciliation a pretext for doing nothing?

Fair points.

Good point.

PD "It is a small example but a potent one. Of the 57 million who rode some form of RTA last year, only 15 percent used the rapid. Yet those self-propelled rail cars are the one RTA mode that is least affected by weather and least vulnerable to traffic snarls." The bolded fact, you would think, would garner more love from local officials here, starting with the friggin' mayor (Frank the Invisible). We won't even get into the rail-hating transit chief...

Not good. Hopefully given MRN's track record, they can get it done; but something's not right here. Why would Stark -- who certainly knows a good thing when he sees it -- and now Mesirow pull out? Could it be the horrible mess the University is in right now, what with the firing of Pres. Hundert and the recent resignation of a large chunk of the Weatherhead faculty -- maybe that's it. I recently spoke with an associate who's in Case's arts & sciences college. He says morale @ CWRU is the pits right now and he's sending out resumes... And what about the E.120 Rapid station? When are they (RTA, Little Italy) going to stop talking and start building? You'd like to think that the racial element is no longer motivating foot-dragging (as in Little Italy doesn't want a bunch of E. Cleveland blacks hopping off the Rapid in their neighborhood), so what's the problem? A parking garage was mentioned before as a sticking point, but why? I don't see why there should even be parking at this station; it's a traditional urban rapid transit site in a fairly dense residential/commercial area -- whose riders will be walk ups and bus transfers (assuming the #9 Mayfield is routed there). Really, with the growth along Euclid with the new Case dorms, Little Italy is less a factor than before, and RTA could up the traffic count from around 100 people to in the thousands by simply building new station at or just adjacent to the current site? So what's up with U.C.? With the fancy-shmancy Art Museum addition underway and last year's Botanical Garden addition, the recently refurbished Severance Hall, U. Circle should be the happening spot (it's still an awesome cultural center despite its residential and retail stagnation)... but like seemingly everything else in this town, there always a major hitch...

I know one weeknight, during the spring, we were having dinner at Great Lakes and there were a bunch of drunks in Market Square, where plans exists to redesign. These guys, some of whom appeared homeless, were menacing and smashing bottles -- a horrible scene for one of our leading neighborhoods. I’m glad to hear during market closure hours the neighborhood still buzzes. This corner is the major transit hub on the West Side – with the a bunch of West Side buses crisscrossing at W. 25th/Lorain and the Ohio City-Red Line stop a block away. And it’s for this reason we should see even greater TOD construction here. There are barriers for expansion as you noted: Lutheran Medical on the north, the Rapid/train/freeway gulley to the south, St. Ignatius HS to the west and, of course, the Flats, to the east… But that still leaves a lot of frontage that is still develop-able (including a number of gaps that can use some serious infill. And keep in mind, as much as we love it and it’s awesome and draws thousands, the West Side Market, itself, becomes a barrier when it’s closed (which is quite often)– it’s huge and takes up a great deal of street frontage on both W. 25 and Lorain – but obviously, WSM is an institution we must be forced to work around. If United Bank’s street level could be developed (I do like the little Greek take-out grocery store on the W. 25th side), it could bridge development south where there’s (if I recall) a biker’s joint, a furniture dealer, a palm reader and that nuisance bar, among others, further down, where there was a murder a few months ago outside. Currently, the viable Market Square strip effectively ends at Lorain (heading south), but if that area could be opened up (and, as we agree, rebuilt, in the case of Market Plaza), we could seriously build on what’s already a great neighborhood. And I never would think of seriously altering the charm that makes the residential part of Ohio City special. We need to keep some restaurants like Heck’s, Parker’s, Johnny Mango’s, le Oui-Oui, etc, off the main strip and deep within the throwback, village-like neighborhood. With the diversity, the upscale residents and businesses, the transit, the charm and, the closeness to downtown, Ohio City seems an area without limits, potential-wise. Btw, have you heard any news about Hope VI?

Btw, peobody, who's the prime tenant in the UB&T building?

It's a great location, peabody. How is the pulse of the Market Square district, by day? Are there people walking the streets; patronizing the businesses & eateries? I'm assuming GLBC always draws some pulse to the area, but so much depends on whether the WSM is open or not. Do you agree with me that that goofy, strip shopping Market Plaza or whatever it's called, should be torn down and replaced with a mixed-use, high density project (not unlike Fries & Schuele)?

This is a good shot from Clevelumbus' very nice photo essay that shows the gateway to the Market Square District entering from Lorain/east. First, the old United Bank & Trust building on the left should be fixed up and cleaned up (I hate the sooty grime to this handsome structure). It's the largest office structure in Ohio City and could really help the area's mix with Class A office space... and the ground level should be redeveloped into street-level shops. Secondly, the area in the foreground, both east and west of the Rapid stop should be rehabbed right up to the camera (and the Hope Bridge). I guess the Hope VI project could help with this, but I'm not sure where it is, right now, in terms of progress.

Professional quality work... and as for this one... ... talk about metaphor city...

Since Cooper was, and will be, rep'ing FCE, you'd like to think this is a good thing w/r regard to moving along w/ the CVSR extension to TC. Who knows (somebody does, of course), his 'detail' as CVSR head honcho could have been designed to prep for the extension... Wishful thinking? ... maybe.

Excellent, all the way around!!

None of the Mall backers have answered one question: if the Mall the ideal, no-brainer site you say it is, why wasn't it rebuilt and expanded there years ago? The scary thing about the Mall fans is that when you in cite all hotels and amenities the current convention center is allegedly close to, you are tacitly saying we should spend hundreds of millions of struggling-city tax dollars to expand the current cc without a guarantee of expansion there in terms of hotels, condos, restaurants and new, expanded train station, etc. That’s simply unacceptable. We don’t need any more empty developer-speak catchphrases like: “Phase I” or “future expansion plans” or “promises for future development” or “long range plans” or, … you know what I mean. Initially, I was on board with Mall expansion IF all the above attendant development was guaranteed. Otherwise, I’m not interested. And from what I’m hearing, Mall backers aren’t guaranteeing anything. The Mall backers did tip the scales, a tad, when noting the mall site has more room for expansion. It sounded correct. However, a closer look at GOOGLE Earth and maps of both areas reveal that’s not necessarily true. Mall expansion can go out over the railroad & Rapid tracks, and maybe wrap around (to the north) both City Hall and the Courthouse to a degree. But the Shoreway or future Lakefront Boulevard immediately to the north of the tracks is a barrier. And even if, somehow, you could build a hundred or so feet past and over the Shoreway, you’re then hemmed in by Browns Stadium and the museums. Surely you’re not telling me that you’d consider tearing down either of these to popular museums – esp the Rock Hall – for a boxy, largely empty convention center? And why couldn’t there be expansion at Tower City to the east and west? -- esp to the east, where the new cc could wrap around the north bank of Collision bend and rest upon that unsightly hole where the eastern Rapid portal is. Also note there is additional space (over the East Side Rapid, NW of the Huron/Ontario corner) where the now-famed LeBron “Witness” billboard is, as it is a gaping hole left by the Van Swerignens that has never been filled in by a projected office building. And no, I don’t care how many hotel-room/walking-per-minute statistics you throw around (even that provided by the City Planning Dept), except for the southernmost tip of the current site the Mall location (and that in itself is a stretch), the Mall site not in the thick of any serious hotel, restaurant or retail area. The current underground cc attached to Public Hall on the Mall is a stately, monumental and majestic site, to be sure, but it’s still sterile and barren of activity 90+% of the time. And unless you guarantee the attendant development with the expanded center on that site, the overwhelming probability is that it will remain similarly lifeless in its expanded state. As I said before, the Mall area is no different than most civic center areas of big cities (accept ours was much better planned and carried out – no other city, accept D.C., fully executed such a grouping of public buildings as did we, and we should be rightly proud of that). And as to MyTwoSense’s discussion of Chicago’s cc location away from activity--Dude, you answered your own question: it's Chicago. There at least a couple hundred high-rise residential and mixed use construction projects underway in that town as we speak. We here in Cleveland need a convention center and attendant development to stimulate growth and life in our downtown. To Chicago, however, a convention center would merely get in the way of their explosive downtown/fringe downtown development. It's why their McCormick Place cc is located 3 miles from downtown along a barren stretch of Lake Michigan just down-shore of Soldier Field and their similar (to our Group Plan Mall buildings) handsome Italian Renaissance aquarium, Field nat-hist museum and planetarium. Because it’s Chicago, and a place most people want to go, as opposed to Cleveland, with our decidedly-unfair mediocre-to-bad reputation, they could have built the thing in northwestern Indiana and still been a draw simply because everyone wants to go visit Chicagoland. Once again, I still don’t see how people can argue for the Mall expansion given that Tower City, and its numerous indoor-interconnected residential/restaurant/hotel/The Q arena/transit/(not to mention existing 3+million sq ft of office space) superstructure, already exists. To the contrary, the Mall proposal is a typical Cleveland ‘to-be-built’ scenario. Aren’t we weary of all the developer promises and letdowns to continually grasp at pie-in-the-sky while thumbing our noses at a sure thing? -- and for that matter, if the Medical Merchandise Mart people are in talks with Ratner and Jackson to guarantee X-hundred thousand (new) sq feet of space, why on earth would we tell them to go take a hike (regardless of what we think of Ratner or Jackson)? The MMM people know what they’re doing; they know that the Mall cc has been in a precarious, undersized, under-utilized no-growth state for decades and, being bottom-liner business folks, they understand Tower City greatly trumps the Mall as the place to be when taking into account all the above existing/interconnected advantages I (and others) have listed. Yes, at a distance, the sensibly economic thing to do would be to rebuild what we already have. But shouldn’t we be about what best puts us in position for downtown to advance. A Tower City cc gives us that, while the Mall doesn’t . To think otherwise simply makes zero sense to me.

Nobody's saying get rid of parking. Parking garages, generally, are preferable to surface lots in urban areas, but we need to be careful of what type of structure we build and how, positively or negatively it will affect this unique area. I don't see why a garage need be built next to Great Lakes. If it's to support more high-desnity residential living, like Fries & Schule, that's one thing, but if it's just a lot to accomodate more cars, I'm against it. Market Square/GLBC is a popular area, to be sure, but the small surface lot does not face on any street and would have a foreboding affect on the beautiful buildings and vibrant street scene that make up Market Ave. As surface lots go, it's one of the better ones as it's mainly hemmed in behind the building lines of W. 25 and Lorain. Also, there's tons of surface parking behind WSM. And if folks are that hard up for parking, sneak over to Dave's, which often isn't full, or park on one of the side streets around Bridge, W. 28th or Jay, and enjoy the beautiful stroll amongst the old Victorinans... Keep what parking we have, but I see no need to expand it any. Ohio City, esp the Market Sq area is a pedestrian paradise that need not -- as do so many other areas in Cleveland -- bow down to the almighty automobile. Heck, part of the synergy and excitement of an area is the lack of parking -- scarcity = trendy. Isn't that part of the reason's why D.C.'s Georgetown is so damn trendy? The suburbanites who claim they won't come into nice city areas like Warehouse or Ohio City because of parking are self fullfilling their own prophecies. They really don't like the cities -- and all the diversity and excitement they bring, and would rather stay put in their look-alike, homogeneous suburbs. My attitude is: fine, the hell with you -- we don't want you here anyway.

Nice pics. But the camera doesn't lie. As nice as some of the Antiques District strip looks along Lorain, there is so much that looks downright seedy -- to the extent that, if you are Cleveland's travel arm, do you really want to prop this neighborhood up as 'the place to go' to get antiques? Larchmere, though not as extensive (Length-wise, anyway) as Lorain, is a much nicer area to buy antiques; much more pleasing to the eye -- and, no, I'm not saying this because I live right around the corner. I'm pulling for Lorain though, because we're all Clevelanders. But, really, I wish the City would take this area under it's wing and start proactively cleaning it up -- much like the City cleaned up Ohio City's Market Square retail district in the 90s which has lead to its current renaissance.

Hey, mrnyc, keep your eyes on the road! The life you save may be mine! Kidding aside, nice post. As usual, Cleveland looks quite majestic, architecture-wise, but the desolation of our downtown -- reflected again and again in these photo essays -- is depressing.

I would agree, most Sat visitors to the market drive ... at least, I think they do. But a whole lot of people take RTA, esp the Rapid -- a lot take the Lorain & W.25 buses, too. We travel via the Rapid to the Market from time-to-time during the summer, esp, and there are many, many people coming and going to the Rapid with meats/produce-filled white plastic bags in hand... At least as far as the people I know who go to the Market -- Clevelanders and suburbanites, alike -- they don't do "weeks worth of shopping" but, rather, supplement their regular supermarket buying with the fresh meats and vegetables that only a large farmer's market can offer. So it's not like they do the trunk-filling shopping that you're talking about which, obviously, would negate their using public trans.

Sounds like bad news, indeed. If L&R paid twice the amont the lot had been bought for, how does Stark possibly believe he's going to encourage development on it now -- esp since L&R's a parking lot company in the 1st place... Stark has nice ideas, but frankly, this Pesht deal relied on too much cooperation from those -- particularly highlighted by the Cameron sale -- who may have different motivations than Stark. Maybe this isn't a deal breaker, but looking at this deal, esp in light of an article noting that RE developers, nationally, are pulling out of their condo developments, this sale can't make one feel good about Pesht by any stretch of the imagination.

X wrote: "I'm sorry, but I just want to F'n cry out when everybody talks about the mall being distant from the WD or Gateway or TC or Erieview. It's no more than two blocks from any of those! Take a look at a map, or better yet, take a walk. You don't get more central to EVERYTHING than the Mall." These things are close to you and me as locals, but to visitors, esp conventioners (and esp those who aren't into cities like folks on this board) to whom one city looks like the next, the mall can seem like light years away, and difficult to navigate... I know this as I've visited/spoken with many, many friends and colleagues who've come here on business and to conventions. The fact is most Americans just aren't that adventurous; some are practically afraid of big cities and barely leave their hotels (why do you think it's imperative for any hotel larger than boutique style to either have substantial convention facilities attached or must be attached to a substantial convention center? You know the reason we haven't gotten substantial hotels is b/c (the Growth assn, anyway) we lack a quality CC. Try to look outside yourself and thru the eyes of others who do not share your interests or values.

If the shoe doesn't fit, KJP, don't wear it... I was speaking about posts in a cumulative nature -- here and elsewhere -- not specifically you.

you're dead-on, JDD, I only got a snippet of EP --really didn't get to really unleash my camera (I myself was on a short leash, timewise, that day, with the sig-other)... I plan to explore -- and shoot, more; I love EP. There's the sandy beach, the resort like little custard & dog joint and that beautiful Romanesque/Spanish-styled, buff-brick, red-tiled pavilion thingy near the end of Shoreway, surrounded by trees... Don't worry, I'll get back there before summer's end, and will have much to 'report.'

I think sentimentality is getting in the way, here. I love the Group Plan. They're beautiful Italian Renaissance buildings, esp Public Hall, where I had my HS graduation (Music Hall). But after some fence sitting -- where I could visualize a nice rebuilt/expanded CC at this site -- I've got to go w/ Tower City. When you stand back and weigh both, esp against our history, the choice is easy. Sentimentality and a hatred for the Ratners is driving much of this pro Mall feeling. I despise Ratner, too, but whether you dislike him or some of the stores (and clientele, too -- we won't go there) of Tower City, you've got to realize it is the premiere indoor space in this region -- the largest mixed use project, not just in the state, the Midwest, but one of the largest in the US (and world) outside NYC's Rockefeller Center (and TC's not much behind it -- Philly's Penn Center is making a run, esp w/ the new Comcast Tower rising there)... Hey, I hate the fact the Dolans on the Indians, but how sensible is it to root AGAINST the team I grew up with, regardless of how shabby its history is? Why not build on and enhance what exists and not shoot for the pie in the sky for what doesn't? Fact is, the CC being built anywhere was a non-starter until the Medical Merchandise Mart tie in arose. OK, so Mr. Rat was in Frank's electoral/financial back pocket. So we shoot destroy a prime shot for our city just because we don't like poli gamesmanship? Can't stand the players? The most important factor to me: TOWER CITY EXISTS. At the same time, the Mall, despite it's extremely good looks as Dan Burham's monumental public space, still has a ton of obstacles, most notably: it's distant from the current centers of activity (the Warehouse/Flats; Gateway). There's simply nothing in the Mall area terms of retail and restaurants. It’s beautiful but sterile and boring except for various, random public events. It isn’t called our Civic Center for nothing (what are we going to do, move City Hall, the County Courthouse and/or Celebresse Fed Office building? An expanded mall would still be largely underground with the portion jutting over the railroad tracks toward the lake hemmed in by that giant, 12-use-per-year concrete Browns Stadium (that resembles a spaceship about to lower it's pod-like gang planks), the little airport named Burke that everyone says is somehow indispensable to Cleveland and the Navy yard next to it (and good luck to get Bush or the next probable Republican (I really hate to say) administration to cooperate in relocating the Naval station or closing Burke, esp after the Bushies nefariously tried to underhandedly swipe our 1,200 DFAS jobs.... We talk of all these grandiose plans of hotels, restaurants, even a fancy new train station to spur Amtrak and commuter rail at the site of the current station, and with the new CC majestically covering it... ... hey, call me negative, but I simply don't trust Cleveland (its leadership, such that it is) with all our gazillion grandiose plans. Weren't all these restaurants, office buildings, condos and hotels supposed to spring up 10 years around our world famous Rock Hall? Has any 1 of the above been built? {Answers, respectively, Yes, No} Promises, you want promises? – where’s that grand 24-story condo over a teaming 515 E. Euclid glass-enclosed parking garage buzzing with exciting street-level – we’ve only got the parking garage and a bunch of empty “future” storefront windows; no promises, no viable plans… no nothing. And after all that ‘promise’ for an exciting lower Euclid, where are we now? (hell, we’re struggling even to get a stinking bowling alley and Lola’s to open despite making grand announcements years ago) … So if we do the typical Cleveland thing and elect to stand down on this new TC/Medical Merchandise Mart proposal for our usual illusory, civic/sentimental impulses, you can forget about ANY CC being built at all here, at least in the next decade or more. We'll muddle on for years – decades-- with the existing joint. Tower City, RIGHT NOW, offers a large, very attractive & historic shopping mall; the central rapid transit hub with a 25 min Hopkins run, key to conventioneers; an abundance of restaurants – from food-court joints up to high-end places like Century, San Souci, Mortons & Hyde Park, and a bunch of very good places in between (Castaldi’s, Houllihans & the Hard Rock; connections to 2 stadia (including 20K seat, convention-ready Quicken Loans arena) and indoor connection to around 3 million Sq. feet of office space – not including mainly empty Higbees that could offer even more. Building at TC not only allows the build up and full exploitation of these valuable resources, it also can finish off Tower City, jumpstart the long-dormant Scranton Peninsula homes project and maybe, w/ all the added energy in the TC/Public Sq area, we could either get several hundred rooms attached to one of our 2 existing TC, top-drawer hotels (probably the Renaissance) or a brand new 600 or so brand new one. And I neglected to mention that Tower City is much closer to the Warehouse Dist and Gateway, which are our leading, still-burgeoning residential/entertainment areas (and it’s a 2 min Rapid ride down to the (hopefully) rejuvenated, bustling Flats (maybe with a casino/hotel thrown in, depending how the vote goes in Nov – remember, this is conservative Ohio, so don’t hold your breath, esp re the cigarette (or any other) tax levy proposal. So if the bird-in-hand is the Tower City/CC/MMM proposal we’d be extremely foolish to thumb our nose for the illusory Mall project that has, really, little going for it but stately (though sterile) looks, and a whole mess of sentimentality – including mine…